tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post2671885807865654411..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: October 18,1973: The Coyne Helicopter Case and Philip KlassKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-57502739706868887732018-04-24T17:52:34.943-07:002018-04-24T17:52:34.943-07:00Since about 1980, this has been one of my personal...Since about 1980, this has been one of my personal top 3 cases. As a former U.S. Naval Aircrewman with over 2000 hours of flying time - I find it impossible to believe that the witnesses mistook a fireball (or anything else) for a metallic, UFO. I mean, they saw it close up. Close enough to see detail. I mean, I doubt the 4 of them were flying & said "I have an idea, do you want to make up a story about almost having a midair collision with a flying saucer? I think it will really help our Army careers. (other guy) "Yeah, that sounds great!"<br /><br />I just cannot imagine when I was flying in the Navy of looking out the window & going "Holy cow! A flying saucer so close to our plane I can almost touch it! Oh wait a minute, that's just a meteorite (or any other prosaic object)."Ron S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03209627370215186888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-76596985257907541812015-07-04T14:59:02.182-07:002015-07-04T14:59:02.182-07:00Dear Kevin, what is the earliest report about that...Dear Kevin, what is the earliest report about that case? <br />I think it is important to determine this in order to rule out the possibility of false memory in a rigorous manner. But I agree with you that Klass' explanation seems pretty far-fetched.<br /><br />Cheers.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07109994971710733825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-27234345172293024352015-06-30T05:34:11.209-07:002015-06-30T05:34:11.209-07:00b"h
Since the 50th anniversary of the Exeter...b"h<br /><br />Since the 50th anniversary of the Exeter sighting is approaching, and since this Coyne-Klass post is about the failures of skeptics to investigate properly, I thought I'd add this link to a report by Martin Shough who dissected the claim of Nickell and McGaha a few years ago to have solved Exeter, and, in a most professional manner, Shough finds their claim wanting, <i>severely</i> wanting. <br /><br />http://www.nicap.org/reports/650903exeter_shough.pdfWilliam Strathmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01641055950393700958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-51879194503189399002015-06-25T11:55:02.388-07:002015-06-25T11:55:02.388-07:00Even though this incident occurred post-Blue Book,...Even though this incident occurred post-Blue Book, there must have been some "after action" reports, investigatory documentation from the military, and/or analysis of the incident from a military perspective, I assume. <br /><br />Is this kind of documentation online anywhere that one might check out for themselves? Can someone provide a link here to any such files and related docs?<br /><br />This is an intriguing case, and I'd like to do a little follow-up investigation of my own into the documented details, and what the military may have concluded about this sighting.Steve Sawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17716314515943305158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-90231552445965455692015-06-25T08:38:32.298-07:002015-06-25T08:38:32.298-07:00@starman,
Experiments have shown that gravity can...@starman,<br /><br />Experiments have shown that gravity can be shielded, but the shielding object needs to be _between_ the masses in question. This implies an attractive force between masses. The only way an object above the chopper could influence its attitude would be to apply a stronger (than earths) gravitational force causing it to rise. Making the chopper 'fall' would require an 'anti-gravitational' (push away) force. 'Active' gravitational technologies are in the realm of science fiction at this time.<br />.<br />...alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15547680170328747214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-18982002733931893032015-06-25T04:32:40.272-07:002015-06-25T04:32:40.272-07:00So there is nothing "remotely suggestive"...So there is nothing "remotely suggestive" of ET in this case? Exactly what natural phenomenon explains it?? An object displaying capabilities beyond ours is certainly suggestive of ET.starmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09884942748644499035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-20406126273455161952015-06-25T04:13:16.625-07:002015-06-25T04:13:16.625-07:00Since writing the above I have discovered that Kla...Since writing the above I have discovered that Klass DOES mention the 5 witnesses above. This is in his book UFOS, THE PUBLIC DECEIVED, chapters 16-17. He did not do so in his earlier book.<br /><br />You can read Klass's account for yourself and decide on its merits. But it will not prove anything one way or the other.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-71859502634387121742015-06-25T04:00:58.199-07:002015-06-25T04:00:58.199-07:00Kevin:
It turns out that there were five ground w...Kevin:<br /><br />It turns out that there were five ground witnesses to the incident, all from the same family. This was in response to an article in the MANSFIELD NEWS JOURNAL of Aug 19, 1976. Unfortunately their testimony, whilst useful, does nothing either to bolster the meteor hypothesis or to suggest anything like an ET craft. These five saw both the helicopter and the UFO (whatever it was). Klass never mentioned this, but I found it in the book UFOS 1947-87 (Fortean Tomes, London, 1987), in the chapter by Kim Hansen, p.82-85.<br /><br />So, yes it is best left as an unknown. <br /><br />Larry:<br /><br />You cannot expect anyone to provide "solid evidence" (as you put it) that there is no such thing as an ET. Maybe I should have been more careful in my wording, but if we don't take care we shall be treading on Stanton Friedman's oft-repeated quote that "absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence". You are asking for "evidence of absence". A bit difficult regarding the existence of ETs, wouldn't you say?cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-46909709708431306472015-06-24T18:04:47.948-07:002015-06-24T18:04:47.948-07:00CDA -
I take it from your statement that Klass...CDA -<br /><br />I take it from your statement that Klass' explanation, no matter how ridiculous, is the default because I offered no other explanation. How about just saying that we don't know what happened here. It seems to be the classic definition of an unknown. Do I need to offer something else to dismiss Klass' explanation?KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-89343375202289503472015-06-24T15:50:27.324-07:002015-06-24T15:50:27.324-07:00cda:
You said, "Oh really? I remind you that...cda:<br /><br />You said, "Oh really? I remind you that ET does not exist, period."<br /><br />I am dumbfounded how you, an intelligent person, can make such flat statement of fact unless you have solid evidence. If so, what is that evidence? Now I admit I'm assuming that by ET you mean extraterrestrials as that's the accepted abbreviation for extraterrestrials, but you are saying that there are no ET's anywhere in the universe. I don't think Klass would have even gone that far. Perhaps you meant ET's visiting earth...well then that's an area for reasonable debate.<br /><br />You said that "Kevin offered nothing better in its place" well either you can offer backup to your statement or we are dealing with a double standard, which of course we are.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12035379587054006528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-77151623709685270282015-06-24T11:34:37.022-07:002015-06-24T11:34:37.022-07:00"ET seems so much more parsimonious and plaus..."ET seems so much more parsimonious and plausible."<br />Oh really? I remind you that ET does not exist, period. You are trying to invoke something completely unknown to science to explain the Coyne case, when there is nothing remotely suggestive of such in the evidence. <br /><br />True, Brian Bell is also trying to invoke a technology still unknown to the public. <br /><br />So which is preferable? Or isn't it far better to suppose the object(s) seen and described by the helicopter occupants was a natural phenomenon plus a good bit of over-reaction and over-excitement? The witnesses 'saw' and experienced things that possibly weren't there at all. <br /><br />Kevin mentioned this case to point out the probably fallacious Klass explanation. Kevin may be right, but has offered nothing better in its place, not even an ET solution.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-64738696038399513272015-06-24T11:05:50.834-07:002015-06-24T11:05:50.834-07:00Why would "one of our own" harrass Coyne...Why would "one of our own" harrass Coyne like that? Or, if was a test, why not do it in a restricted area and inform Coyne in advance? They would want the gravitational technology to be secret wouldn't they, instead of having Coyne describe its effects to the media? And if the US had such technology as far back as '73, why hasn't it replaced conventional aircraft, or at least become more visible, in the 42 years since then? ET seems so much more parsimonious and plausible.starmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09884942748644499035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-54256589773890194872015-06-24T09:31:28.972-07:002015-06-24T09:31:28.972-07:00@Starman:
The interesting thing about this case i...@Starman:<br /><br />The interesting thing about this case is the ascent/decent aspects of what the crew experienced. While pilot error is always possible, the mechanics involved and the control apparatus indicate there was no pilot error.<br /><br />My suggestion that the helicopter "rose upward" while in a decent is just a wild guess. But one would have to come up with a plausible explanation for this - while weather effects could account for this - they don't seem to be a factor here either.<br /><br />My "hunch" would be that they were somehow close enough to be impacted by a gravitational field effect. Can't prove it though. Just a guess.<br /><br />While it might suggest ET it can't prove it either. I would not discount the craft being "one of our own". While most here tend to think that "we" don't have such technology there is more than suggestive evidence to indicate we actually do...and have for many decades now.Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-20293173522962521952015-06-24T05:53:06.546-07:002015-06-24T05:53:06.546-07:00Brian Bell, I also remember reading about this cas...Brian Bell, I also remember reading about this case soon after it happened. It was just one of many reports of October 1973, a very eventful time in many ways.<br />So you presume the cause of the chopper's "upward ascent" (redundancy) is an "antigravity effect" from the object above. What natural or manmade object produces an antigravity effect of the sort observed? It's odd to insist it doesn't prove ET when there's no alternative. At the very least, it's highly suggestive. :)starmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09884942748644499035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-28840649115982761292015-06-23T23:49:10.816-07:002015-06-23T23:49:10.816-07:00"At this point Coyne looked up and said the l..."At this point Coyne looked up and said the light, which he could now see was an object, was covering the front of the windshield. Coyne said that there was a red light at the front of the object, a green light that seemed to reflect off the rear of the object, and a green light, like a searchlight coming from the rear. The overall shape seemed to be that of a cigar or cylinder and under the tail was a pyramid-shaped structure from which a green beam came. The overall object was not glowing, but Coyne, and his crew, could see the general shape against the bright, starry background."<br /><br />Yep, I'd have to agree with Klass, that certainly sounds like a meteor to me. <br /><br /><i><b>Not.</b></i>Steve Sawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17716314515943305158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-45519675033042272522015-06-23T18:17:43.849-07:002015-06-23T18:17:43.849-07:00Kevin,
My apologies for going off track. I was act...Kevin,<br />My apologies for going off track. I was actually referring to Corso's claim to having a closer association to the NSC than he actually had.<br /><br />As for the military I grew up around the military, my father was a civil service employee of both the Army and the Air Force. I entered Penn State on a NROTC scholarship in 1969, just in time to be called a baby killer and often being the target of spitting while in uniform. That was nothing compared to what the guys who served went through. I didn't graduate so no, I didn't officially serve. I do have great respect for those who did and I'm greatly relieved that the public opinion of the military has changed so much since 1969.<br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-50886986261342808792015-06-23T17:13:53.963-07:002015-06-23T17:13:53.963-07:00Neal Foy -
I was tempted to delete this because i...Neal Foy -<br /><br />I was tempted to delete this because it is not relevant to the post. You are off onto too many tangents...<br /><br />However, you made one comment that is annoying to those of us who have served in the military and that is, "Some would nit pick actual titles," which I believe is a reference to the colonel/lieutenant colonel debate. In the military, that is a big deal and there is no evidence from his records that he was promoted to colonel upon retirement. While a 'brevet' promotion was given and is given in certain circumstances, Corso did not fall into those categories.<br /><br />And, in the military, the different between colonel and lieutenant colonel is a big deal. Almost everyone who enters as a second lieutenant will be promoted to first lieutenant and the vast majority of those will reach captain. There is a bump between captain and major, though not a huge one and the same between major and lieutenant colonel. There is a big step to colonel, and then another huge one to brigadier general. Corso's claim to be a colonel is resume inflation at best and an undeserved promotion... I would assume from your comment that you have not served, or if you did it was the minimum service of two years, otherwise I think you would understand the difference. KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-42684275782348627872015-06-23T15:59:16.236-07:002015-06-23T15:59:16.236-07:00@Albert
I find the ancient astronaut theory to be...@Albert<br /><br />I find the ancient astronaut theory to be very interesting. Is it true? I don't know. The way it was presented by Von Daniken left something to be desired. His cause and effect relationships were questionable to say the least. I read some of Sitchin too, naturally, he came under attack by the skeptics. I don't know I can't read Sumerian text. Some say neither could he. <br /><br />Corso is indeed a puzzle, his credentials were impressive. Some would nit pick actual titles and such but in essence he was who he said he was. The tone of his book put me off the most he a came off as a combination superhero and behind the scenes puppet master. I really don't know what to make of him. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-80128839852044324082015-06-23T15:06:30.227-07:002015-06-23T15:06:30.227-07:00CDA -
In none of the official documents did Chile...CDA -<br /><br />In none of the official documents did Chiles/Whitted say that the plane was rocketed by the close approach of the object. There are newspaper articles, and later books, that do say this... but again, in the official documents and the first interviews after the incident. That statement came later. I think it is clear that they saw a bolide...<br /><br />And your statement about black boxes was confusing.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-32525379350278460382015-06-23T14:54:09.234-07:002015-06-23T14:54:09.234-07:00@Neal,
Von Daniken is a theorist. The Ancient Ast...@Neal,<br /><br />Von Daniken is a theorist. The Ancient Astronaut theory is not new; Carl Sagan mentioned it in one of his books. Von Danikens problem is he goes too far. Corso said he was dealing in _facts_, which aside from being ridiculous, were never proven. The Corso Affair was strange. Was he a huckster, a disinformation agent, or did he really believe his story?<br />.<br />...alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15547680170328747214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-7976744284063448472015-06-23T13:53:57.373-07:002015-06-23T13:53:57.373-07:00Kevin:
I did NOT say such a black box was aboard ...Kevin:<br /><br />I did NOT say such a black box was aboard the helicopter. I wrote that if such a thing had been available it would, or might, have provided the vital clues as to what the flight crew actually did and the elapsed time. As it is, we have only their memories which, as I said, could easily have been affected by the excitement of the incident. <br /><br />Recall the Chiles-Whitted incident of 1948. How close did that object really get to their plane? It was at one time claimed (or was it?) that the DC-3 was 'rocked' by the exhaust from the UFO! Would you trust ANY distance estimate in the Coyne case? I wouldn't. Nor a time estimate either. Despite this, I would agree the case is best left as an unknown.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-1358176158779872752015-06-23T12:56:31.133-07:002015-06-23T12:56:31.133-07:00CDA -
What makes you think there was any black bo...CDA -<br /><br />What makes you think there was any black box flight recorder in the helicopter? The Army didn't use black boxes in the helicopters at the time.<br /><br />However, Jenny Zeidman did a lot of work in her investigation of the case, reconstructing as best she could the time line. According to that work, the sighting lasted from four to five minutes...KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-57781480782149362752015-06-23T12:31:58.275-07:002015-06-23T12:31:58.275-07:00Lance -
As a retired astronomer with 76+ years in...Lance -<br /><br />As a retired astronomer with 76+ years in the field, I am well aware of all the crazy ways people see things in the sky. However, in this case, with four presumably competent observers who apparently agreed on what was seen and experienced, there is no way a fireball could account for any aspect of the incident.<br /><br />Regards<br />JRJim Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13509149778784903417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-80367550382549738172015-06-23T11:31:03.397-07:002015-06-23T11:31:03.397-07:00Klass deserves a lot of criticism but we can't...Klass deserves a lot of criticism but we can't forget some of those writers on the other side who are just as guilty of leaps in logic. Von Daniken would make the Frogs of Calaveras County cry for shame with some of his leaps. Corso was beating his chest and patting himself on the back to the point that I thought the old guy might injure himself. That's just the short list.<br /><br />My point being that in this field none of us should leave home without a finely tuned BS meter. Even with that we might expect to step on a liar mine occasionally.I believe that this is the main reason that for those on the outside looking in it looks like a subject to be avoided.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-79020220556901501692015-06-23T10:20:35.459-07:002015-06-23T10:20:35.459-07:00I recall as a kid reading this incident in the Oma...I recall as a kid reading this incident in the Omaha World Herald the week it happened. Back then UFO reports often got good press coverage. This one had a lengthy article and illustration.<br /><br />I may be skeptical of some cases, but not all cases - some remain unexplained. This is one of those cases.<br /><br />Klass was frequently wrong on many accounts. I personally never liked his explanations.<br /><br />This incident did happen, but it doesn't prove ET exists. Obviously something else was flying that night and took at least a casual interest in the helicopter.<br /><br />Given the overall and relative low altitude. It sort of rules out any other type of conventional aircraft. The crew did not report any noise although maybe they couldn't hear for obvious reasons.<br /><br />I presume the explanation for the helicopter's unexplained upward ascent is an antigravity effect from the object above it?<br />Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.com