tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post6300272884098737280..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: X-Zone Broadcast Network - Brenda McClurkin, University of Texas, Arlington Special CollectionsKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-88628091625277863002017-03-31T06:16:06.883-07:002017-03-31T06:16:06.883-07:00Brian Bell..."Arm chair critics rarely impres...Brian Bell..."Arm chair critics rarely impress anyone with their false bravado."<br /><br />But you're the armchair critic!<br /><br /> You're the one who, throughout this thread, has been critical of people for not taking up this half arsed challenge of yours...but you wouldn't dream of taking it up yourself!<br /><br />You're idea...in effect... is to reverse engineer a blank paper into a paper that <i>looks</i> like a paper that no one really knows what is written on it!<br /><br /> It's barking mad. <br /><br />The remarkable thing about it is that you actually <i>still</i> believe it's feasible. Everyone else can see that it's an exercise in futility...<br /><br />The phrase "pissing into the wind", springs to mind.Paul Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04267452625547760508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-90019754858004137142017-03-27T11:14:25.958-07:002017-03-27T11:14:25.958-07:00@Nitram:
rameymemo@gmail.com
I wouldn't be i...@Nitram:<br /><br />rameymemo@gmail.com<br /><br />I wouldn't be inclined to send anything to a mysterious, undisclosed, unnamed "person"(s) behind this offer.<br /><br />For all I know, it's already someone on this blog.Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-42637230973574784562017-03-27T08:46:17.480-07:002017-03-27T08:46:17.480-07:00In response to Nitram, Gen. Ramey took this great ...In response to Nitram, Gen. Ramey took this great secret to his grave. Out of respect for him perhaps it should remain there, in perpetuity.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-3869971924317257202017-03-26T15:49:19.173-07:002017-03-26T15:49:19.173-07:00Kevin wrote:
"Would Ramey have been holding ...<br />Kevin wrote:<br /><br />"Would Ramey have been holding it in the photographs if it was a classified message? I say no because he was a military officer who understood the ramifications of compromising classified material."<br /><br />I say "quite possibly" - because this sort of thing HAS happened before - although a military officer today would "almost certainly" not make that sort of mistake.<br /><br />Regards<br />NitramNitramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09658903255370299035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-54671575945655185842017-03-26T15:43:14.239-07:002017-03-26T15:43:14.239-07:00Bell & CDA
If you have any ideas that might a...Bell & CDA<br /><br />If you have any ideas that might assist with reading of that memo, that won't take 300 years or so (ideally less than 12 months), please feel free to send them to this email address (remember of course there is a potential $10K reward): <br /><br /><br /> rameymemo@gmail.com<br /><br /><br />But please refrain from posting them on this blog please.<br /><br />Regards <br />NitramNitramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09658903255370299035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-16431481766574329852017-03-26T14:17:19.562-07:002017-03-26T14:17:19.562-07:00Kevin:
You appear to agree that the memo contains ...Kevin:<br />You appear to agree that the memo contains nothing of value to either science or the military. That is my very point: if it DID contain anything of such import (like the early discovery of the debris possibly being ET), it would, I am positive, be retained, along with a myriad of other Roswell-ET documents, in an archive. <br /><br />Therefore I conclude that its very non-existence (so far as we know) indicates it has no scientific, military or historical value. But I agree it MAY still have been destroyed by accident. <br /><br />I am reasoning on the lines of the missing Roswell AFB messages from 1947-49, mentioned in the GAO Report of 1995. The mere fact that they went missing (destroyed?) strongly indicates that they were routine junk and therefore had no connection with the discovery of a possible ET visit to planet earth. <br /><br />cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-38561815405654524962017-03-26T10:02:07.522-07:002017-03-26T10:02:07.522-07:00Kevin,
If we believe what Marcel and DeBose had t...Kevin,<br /><br />If we believe what Marcel and DeBose had to say, then it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Ramey felt some pressure. His superior had told him to bury this story and now. Not to mention he had just seen very strange materials brought in by Marcel.<br /><br />People under pressure do strange things that defy logic. World class golfers shank a drive, NFL kickers miss point blank field goals etc. So Ramey having a brain fart under the circumstances doesn't seem impossible to me. I do agree with you that the most likely thing is the memo isn't the holy grail of UFOlogy.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-87912699066629462612017-03-26T09:22:27.538-07:002017-03-26T09:22:27.538-07:00RRRGroup wrote:
"During my time in news medi...RRRGroup wrote:<br /><br />"During my time in news media that suggestion was usually proffered to those who were the subject of a photograph. For some reason it was thought to give substance to the photograph. (It's still used today; a prop for the person in situ.) It's a kind of photographer's meme, which I' m sure some of your photographic followers know."<br /><br /><br />Absolutely agree with this. It doesn't mean the Johnson had Ramey hold the memo but it is common practice.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-48571738482123701002017-03-26T09:15:51.044-07:002017-03-26T09:15:51.044-07:00Rich -
In considering Johnson's comments, I a...Rich -<br /><br />In considering Johnson's comments, I also look at all the things he said that were untrue about this. If Johnson did hand it to Ramey, then I would say that it is not a classified document... I would say that if a reporter was about to be allowed in the office, any classified material would be properly stored or covered up, and no one would have allowed Johnson to grab something from Ramey's desk if he attempted to do it. This I know from my experience in handling classified materials inf various environments, and all the trouble we went to covering our white boards in the TOC in Baghdad before allowing visitors to enter the area.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-10797168549652979352017-03-26T08:44:30.086-07:002017-03-26T08:44:30.086-07:00Kevin:
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Joh...Kevin:<br /><br />I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Johnson's suggestion that Ramey hold something while being interviewed or photographed.<br /><br />During my time in news media that suggestion was usually proffered to those who were the subject of a photograph. For some reason it was thought to give substance to the photograph. (It's still used today; a prop for the person in situ.) It's a kind of photographer's meme, which I' m sure some of your photographic followers know.<br /><br />RRRRRGrouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04875523970644487204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-56393931370510617952017-03-26T05:08:00.220-07:002017-03-26T05:08:00.220-07:00CDA -
Clearly you know nothing about the military...CDA -<br /><br />Clearly you know nothing about the military, the American military, classified messages and the retention and destruction of classified material.<br /><br />There are a number of things we do not know. Was the source of the memo the Fort Worth Star-Telegram as J. Bond Johnson once suggested? It wasn't the first thing he said and once he realized that if that was true then the value of the memo was decreased.<br /><br />Was it a typewritten document created by Ramey's secretary of information passed over the telephone to Ramey? If so, it was an unclassified document that would have contained the same basic facts seen in the newspaper articles and would have been thrown away, probably later in the day.<br /><br />Was it a classified message sent through the military communications system? If so, then it would have been retained for a period of time and the possibly destroyed once the information of it was replaced by better, more current data.<br /><br />Would Ramey have been holding it in the photographs if it was a classified message? I say no because he was a military officer who understood the ramifications of compromising classified material. Although it is not mentioned anywhere, I suspect that Ramey's aide, Captain Roy Showalter would have been present and suggested that Ramey not hold the document when being photographed. Yes, we all know that some highly classified material has been inadvertently revealed when a government official was photographed holding a classified document but the circumstances here argue against that.<br /><br />Johnson said that he had grabbed something off Ramey's desk so that the general had something in his hand for the photograph... my question would be why? There was no need for him to be holding anything.<br /><br />Anyway, this is all speculation... and the real point is that the document Ramey is holding is not as important as some believe. Even if it is suggestive of an alien solution here, it is some sort of preliminary communication and was likely destroyed along with other classified communications that would have had to do with other aspects of running the Eighth Air Force. So, can we get rid of the argument that the document must be stored someone and we all have been looking in the wrong place. I say, it might have been destroyed in the course of business because message traffic has a short shelf life, is routinely destroyed and no one might have been thinking in terms of life altering information. KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-703771828053766002017-03-25T13:02:15.845-07:002017-03-25T13:02:15.845-07:00Paul wrote:
"Like I said last time you propo...Paul wrote:<br /><br />"Like I said last time you proposed this...You'd better get your backside into gear then...and maybe you'll conquer the problems with the variables, as outlined by Neal (and dozens of more variables that he hasn't) hopefully before your 300th birthday."<br /><br />Yes, variables must be considered but for every variable is a control that can be used even if it would mean replicating the photo hundreds of times using different lenses, filters, etc. it's not a matter of one simple photo and it's done, as you seem to be suggesting. Simple minds think simply perhaps.<br /><br />But the more important observation is that few here, if any, desire to try different methods (yet unexplored) and would rather COMPLAIN they just can't get an accurate reading from what's been done thus far.<br /><br />Arm chair critics rarely impress anyone with their false bravado.<br /><br />It's clear that Paul has made up his mind....Rudiak is right....it's just got to be "aliens". So why bother?<br /><br />Perhaps Paul by YOUR 300th birthday advanced AI will finally prove you correct....or not.Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-5546462885277598402017-03-25T10:42:11.882-07:002017-03-25T10:42:11.882-07:00Brian,
I don't know how many different transl...Brian,<br /><br />I don't know how many different translations a computer might come up with. My thought is working with what we already have, not making up some experiment that is almost surely doomed.<br /><br />I've had the challenge of reproducing a photo that I made that had been rejected by the client because they had changed the labels on some of the product involved. My first thought was this shouldn't be too hard, maybe take an hour or so, well, five hours later I finally got an image that was acceptable although still off by a millimeter or so in places. <br /><br />From what I remember David Rudiak had the same thought on reproducing the memo photo but found it difficult to reproduce the folds in the paper. After you jump that hurdle you have to get the distance from the camera, position of the camera, position and angle of the memo exactly right. If you don't do that the experiment is useless.<br /><br />Here's a project for you. Take photo of a piece of paper with type on it. Then after you have moved the paper and the camera try to reproduce your original photo exactly. No fair taking measurements, you have to go from scratch. Use any camera you like and you can use a tripod for your attempts at reproducing the original photo. This will show the difficulty in reproducing the memo photo since using the same camera and sheet of paper eliminates those variables. Have fun.<br /><br />Just to make it clear I don't think my proposal is the only approach that can be taken, it certainly has it's own set of problems. Maybe we could find an expert in A.I. who could tell us if he or she thinks it's a viable approach.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-50454207686632604082017-03-25T10:21:12.787-07:002017-03-25T10:21:12.787-07:00Paul: It it netball that girls play, not basketba...Paul: It it netball that girls play, not basketball!<br /><br />I'll reiterate that if the Ramey memo really contains information that we are not alone in the universe (as the ETHers insist it does), the said memo would still be extant somewhere in an archive, along with a myriad other documents, and available to science and the public. Still top secret, after 70 years? Tell me another. <br /><br />The fact that it has not turned up anywhere is good reason to be confident, very confident, that its contents are worthless to science and the study of life elsewhere. <br /><br />Yes, it WAS worth trying to decipher originally. But not anymore. Give up and try other areas of investigation. SETI possibly?cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-79896835871933417392017-03-24T13:14:33.989-07:002017-03-24T13:14:33.989-07:00Hi Martin,
I have never agreed that the proposed ...Hi Martin,<br /><br />I have never agreed that the proposed full transcript dreamed up up Rudiak could ever be correct. It is, in my estimation, the worst sort of conspiracy-minded claptrap. <br /><br />But it is hilarious to the read the absolutely nonsensical (even considering military jargon, etc.) text for the insight it provides on the workings of the Paranoid Style mind.Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-35315335365909629112017-03-24T13:00:00.511-07:002017-03-24T13:00:00.511-07:00"Today's quote for you Lance is from Wilt..."Today's quote for you Lance is from Wilt Chamberlain - another legend of the basketball court... <br /><br />"I believe that good things come to those who work.""<br /><br /><br />Whoever this Wilt chap is (do people actually pay to watch that girls game?)...he's corrupted the original biblical phrase that went along the lines of "good things come to those who <i>wait</i>...<br /><br />And I think that's what we're going to have to do with this Ramey memo. I'm fairly confident that, in time, some new technology will allow it to be read. Also, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Dave Rudiak is proved to be correct in the words that he believes he has translated. <br />Paul Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04267452625547760508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-71616784870025548902017-03-24T12:38:43.432-07:002017-03-24T12:38:43.432-07:00Brian Bell...
"And this is EXACTLY why no on...Brian Bell...<br /><br /><i>"And this is EXACTLY why no one even bothers to take the next step in this evaluation. They "doubt" it's possible and therefore REJECT any alternative analysis because according to them it's IMPOSSIBLE....just too many "variables".</i><br /><br />Like I said last time you proposed this...You'd better get your backside into gear then...and maybe you'll conquer the problems with the variables, as outlined by Neal (and dozens of more variables that he hasn't) hopefully before your 300th birthday. <br /><br />Good luck with that mate! :-)Paul Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04267452625547760508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-89153707378395641522017-03-24T12:31:53.352-07:002017-03-24T12:31:53.352-07:00After Complaining About "Variables" Neal...After Complaining About "Variables" Neal wrote:<br /><br />"...maybe we could use artificial intelligence to try to give use possible translations."<br /><br />As if that doesn't bring up a whole lot of "variables" that can't be controlled for either. Which of the dozens of possible computer generated interpretations would you prefer to be the "actual" reading Neal?<br /><br />- AND -<br /><br />"Frankly, for reasons already given I think what you propose is a waste of time and resources."<br /><br />That's an opinion. But the only thing that really seems a "waste of time" is people debating pros and cons of new and different methods of approaching an analysis by clinging to old notions, prior reads, and no action.<br /><br />Lance wrote:<br /><br />"Neal Foy is absolutely right about there being too many variables and no reliable way to recover those values. Every decision would carry error and (as we have seen) possible bias."<br /><br />Bias can actually be controlled for as done in other similar recreations, not to mention blind studies. As far as "variables" go, name a study, historical or scientific, that has never had to factor in "variables".<br /><br />Maybe that's why the Wright Brothers never invented the airplane or why Lindbergh never flew across the Atlantic nonstop.<br /><br />Nitram wrote:<br /><br />"I have also raised Bell's idea with David Rudiak and Kevin before - both agree that it wouldn't work to try and physically replicate the memo with the proposed text on a vintage teletype machine, then recreate the known photographic conditions."<br /><br />Classic "Nitram". Unbeknownst to the idea's originator, run with their proposal behind closed doors until you discover your friends won't support it. Why not let them speak for themselves, or are you now their official unabashed mouthpiece?<br /><br />Frankly, the only relevant comment is Kevin's in that the text may contain acronyms, errors, and other nonstandard formatting issues we are ignorant of.<br /><br />But the suggestion was not to discover those unknowns but rather to evaluate the one "reading" some feel is the ONLY possible reading and nothing elseBrian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-12508151278484100402017-03-24T09:05:51.983-07:002017-03-24T09:05:51.983-07:00Kevin;
I see your point and I make no claim to be...Kevin;<br /><br />I see your point and I make no claim to be an expert in A.I. But I'm going to make a possibly wrong assumption that the A.I. machine could be taught to recognize some of these things.<br /><br />When I was a kid I would sometimes catch a ride with my brother in law when he had to work on a weekend at Barksdale AFB. He worked in Transportation, his job was packing and shipping. I would wait in the office in the warehouse until the pool or gym opened. Out of boredom I would try to decipher the messages coming in on the teletype so I'm familiar with what you're saying about military communications. For instance points of origin and destination were three letter designations in all caps for the various bases involved. There was a key to those near the machine and it didn't take me long to understand that part of the message. Of course being from a military family I was familiar with the Commands such as SAC,ATC, ADC, MATS etc. The point being that if I could learn to decipher at least in part those messages then it may be possible for an A.I. machine to learn military jargon as well. I guess I should add that this was just routine traffic about aircraft parts and the like, nothing classified. Barksdale was a SAC base with nuclear weapons but those would have been handled at the adjoining Bossier Base.<br /><br />As I said before, whatever results a machine could produce would then be worked on by humans who would likely filter them through their own personal bias. It seems that a lot of people hang onto that bias like a drunk clinging to an empty gin bottle. So getting a translation that everyone would agree to seems unlikely.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-10313432230112694132017-03-23T19:54:43.719-07:002017-03-23T19:54:43.719-07:00CDA
"I presume you think Kevin Randle's ...CDA<br /><br />"I presume you think Kevin Randle's tax returns (or even yours or mine) are of the same public interest as documents revealing the news that the earth has been visited by ETs."<br /><br />Again, you are missing the point, which has been explained numerous times by Kevin and others in earlier postings. Just because you haven't seen a document doesn't mean it's not important or that it doesn't exist. We know the Ramey memo did exist - in the highly unlikely event that Roswell was an ET visit, the documents won't suddenly surface because of a time limitation/downgrade.<br /><br />If you have something sensible to contribute along the lines of what Neal has had to say ("maybe we could use artificial intelligence to try to give use possible translations.") then I would be prepared to listen.Nitramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09658903255370299035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-23940407288387872542017-03-23T19:44:15.198-07:002017-03-23T19:44:15.198-07:00Lance wrote
"Neal Foy is absolutely right ab...Lance wrote<br /><br />"Neal Foy is absolutely right about there being too many variables and no reliable way to recover those values. Every decision would carry error and (as we have seen) possible bias."<br /><br />I also agree with you on this - I have also raised Bell's idea with David Rudiak and Kevin before - both agree that it wouldn't work to try and physically replicate the memo with the proposed text on a vintage teletype machine, then recreate the known photographic conditions.<br /><br />I have also explained the reasons why not in a previous post which clearly Bell has forgotten about.<br />Neal is 100% correct in his statement that this proposal is a "waste of time and resources" - but yes, we need to find another way.<br /><br />Finally, Lance, your last comment does nothing to help advance the cause - you are contradicting yourself, like your mentor, as you have also in the past stated that David's interpretation of the memo "could" be correct.<br /><br />Today's quote for you Lance is from Wilt Chamberlain - another legend of the basketball court... <br /><br />"I believe that good things come to those who work."<br /><br />Regards<br />Nitram<br />Nitramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09658903255370299035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-8138400843998344702017-03-23T19:09:30.328-07:002017-03-23T19:09:30.328-07:00Neal -
It really depends on the source of the mem...Neal -<br /><br />It really depends on the source of the memo. If it came in with Bond Johnson as he once claimed, then there were probably errors in it as seen with other teletypes of that era, meaning misspellings and poor grammar.<br /><br />If it came through the Army communications center at Ft. Worth, then it could be filled with jargon, acronyms, and even with period spelled out as PD and comma as CMA rather than punctuation. I have seen military messages so full of jargon that they look like a foreign language.<br /><br />The point is that it might not follow the normal rules for sentence structure and syntax, which is, of course, still another variable.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-35308576860344396442017-03-23T18:29:34.391-07:002017-03-23T18:29:34.391-07:00Neal Foy is absolutely right about there being too...Neal Foy is absolutely right about there being too many variables and no reliable way to recover those values. Every decision would carry error and (as we have seen) possible bias.<br /><br />My work is doing fx for TV commercials, etc. and I'm speaking with some expertise in this field.<br /><br />You could possibly get some information in a re-creation like this but recovering or confirming the text is, in my estimation, flatly impossible.<br /><br />Anyway, it doesn't take doing so to know that Rudiak's nonsensical "transcript" is a nothing more than a fever dream and only makes sense if your entire life is steeped in the Paranoid Style.<br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-2328964446333976402017-03-23T17:34:30.442-07:002017-03-23T17:34:30.442-07:00Brian, I was pointing out the flaws in your propos...Brian, I was pointing out the flaws in your proposal. I think I made it clear that it isn't time to give up.<br /><br />I really don't have a dog in this hunt. I've barely paid attention to David's reading. I do respect all the work he and others have done to get this far. But it is incomplete and not agreed on by all parties who want a certain outcome that aligns with their own view. On the other hand I'm willing to accept whatever comes out as long as it makes sense linguistically and historically. <br /><br />I think another tack might work better. Because we know the message is in English and will generally follow the norm for sentence structure and syntax then we have a starting point for using simple code breaking techniques that have worked many times even when translating text or numbers. From what I see from the scans we can count letters and see sentence breaks. Maybe we could use artificial intelligence to try to give use possible translations. If someone has a logical argument against my proposal I would certainly defer.<br /><br />Frankly, for reasons already given I think what you propose is a waste of time and resources.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-78132401558949706142017-03-23T13:56:39.929-07:002017-03-23T13:56:39.929-07:00Neal wrote:
"To sum it up, too many variable...Neal wrote:<br /><br />"To sum it up, too many variables."<br /><br />And this is EXACTLY why no one even bothers to take the next step in this evaluation. They "doubt" it's possible and therefore REJECT any alternative analysis because according to them it's IMPOSSIBLE....just too many "variables".<br /><br />The same attitude no doubt persisted when two guys named Wilber and Orville Wright proposed a flying machine, when rocket pioneers said it was possible to place men on the moon, or that there would never be a cure for Polio.<br /><br />Impossible....just way too many "variables".<br /><br />Or is it just that you prefer Rudiak's reading because without any proof you believe aliens crashed at Roswell and have manipulated human society for eons?<br /><br /><br />Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.com