tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post8957088474777361042..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: Steve Pierce and Travis WaltonKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-80233782175158408492021-03-17T12:16:55.997-07:002021-03-17T12:16:55.997-07:00Steve decided on using his middle name after he wa...Steve decided on using his middle name after he was the target of teasing by kids at school. The kids teased him by saying he was named after his mother who's name is Jeffie. After deciding to use his middle name he was known as Steve and his first name Jeff was not used,except for formalities. As far as Klass was concerned,I think that in itself was a hoax. He had no intention of giving up any kind of money. Of course there were ulterior motives to his seemingly generous offer. In order to receive any kind of funds,it had to be proven that the entire circumstances surrounding the disappearance was falsified. There wasn't anyway to prove that anything was false because it was all true. You can not possibly falsely the truth. The polygraph test proved that. In my experience in listening to the many Interviews that Steve has given,he has never deviated from the truth. His story time after time is always the same. There is no need to misconstrue information when you are telling the truth to begin with. If there is any lingering doubt,administer yet another polygraph test. He has already passed 3, I am confident he will and can pass a fourth.👽https://www.blogger.com/profile/08727799703705535440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-10390769955633420872021-03-17T11:37:45.836-07:002021-03-17T11:37:45.836-07:00Why don't you give him a polygraph test and ap...Why don't you give him a polygraph test and approve it one way or the other👽https://www.blogger.com/profile/08727799703705535440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-19297986378680437752013-02-15T14:40:31.643-08:002013-02-15T14:40:31.643-08:00I'll keep this short: I only know Steve from F...I'll keep this short: I only know Steve from Facebook (which didn't work out very well for Mante Te'o, eh..?) but I find it extremely unlikely that any of this was an invention. He's an extremely normal, friendly, blue-collar guy. I'm biased because I've seen an enormous UFO (much larger than the one reported by Steve et al) from a very close distance. For God's sake - virtually nothing good comes of reporting a UFO siting, nor, from inventing a malicious story about a UFO researcher/debunker. There really isn't any motivation for either. And, as you've reported, Steve went as far as to admit that he actually found Klass to be a likable guy, away from the topic of UFOs. Steve had a bunch of kids, and, bills - and I think he had various issues with Walton and Rogers (I don't have any unique insight into their problems). I've always wondered if, while struggling to get by, he wasn't a little irritated that a movie had been made, and, he (1) was never consulted for any input, and, (2) the other guys made a few bucks, and he got nothing. But I think you can take Steve's story to the bank. Hey - this is the internet - that's just my opinion.ClassicUFODudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15468933852801896946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-85888789484650494112012-08-06T14:40:33.132-07:002012-08-06T14:40:33.132-07:00I have no problem with this account and I donlt th...I have no problem with this account and I donlt think it hurts anyone. It's simply a matter of perception. First off, Klass wasn't offering a bribe. He was offering money in return for evidence. Pierce initially didn't understand that and thought he'd get the $10K just for proclaiming the thing a hoax. When he actually got to talking to Klass he discovered the $10K was to be in return for something tangible to prove the hoax, which Pierce didn't have. To me, that exonerates Klass and reflects more poorly on Pierce. <br /><br />But Pierce is absolved, too. Turns out the money was irresistable, but when he finally took the bait, he couldn't follow through because it wasn't a hoax and had zero proof that it was. <br /><br />It's a win-win scenario, kind of.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16047106334748329298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-85958896781191098392012-08-06T08:12:26.644-07:002012-08-06T08:12:26.644-07:00"> Klass had a copy of that first polygrap..."> Klass had a copy of that first polygraph examination that listed his name as Jeff S. Pierce, so Klass had that information. That was how Klass could find him."<br /><br />"Can anyone verify this claim? It does not appear in any of Klass' books (oh, have people failed to mention that?)."<br /><br />This claim is true. I queried the Klass papers archive at the American Philosophical Society, asking for any and all correspondence, papers, etc. pertaining to Steve Pierce. Everything that came back is here: http://www.debunker.com/historical/APS_Files_Walton.PDF , and I encourage people to read it.<br /><br />A copy of the original polygraph report is included, and it refers to Jeff S. Pierce. There is also an eye-opening transcript of Klass' phone call with Pierce.<br /><br />What did not come up: any letters, notes, transcripts, etc. between Klass and Pierce indicating that Klass was traveling to see him, that Klass wanted him to 'confess," etc. That claim is entirely unsupported.Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-12702779144045273452012-08-05T23:44:07.065-07:002012-08-05T23:44:07.065-07:00PART II
> “Did Klass offer [Pierce] ten thousa...PART II<br /><br />> “Did Klass offer [Pierce] ten thousand dollars?” and if he did, was it a bribe to get him to say it was a hoax? Clearly Klass believed that to be the case<br /><br />"Clearly"? Quite a statement in the face of Klass's 1983 disavowal.<br /><br />> KR: "I merely reported what Pierce told me."<br /><br />No, Mr. Randle, you sanctified it, you have conducted apologetics for it. This disturbs me. I think your distaste for Mr. Klass (likely well-founded) inclines you to accept a tall tale. That's not the same careful, evidence-based Kevin Randle I read about in "Reflections of a UFO Investigator" (I sensible book I highly recommend). <br /><br />This (so-far) baseless allegation reminds of something I read in Moseley and Pflock's "Shockingly Close to the Truth," p 284.<br /><br />"A weird touch was added to the [1985 NUFOC] proceedings by Bill Moore who was in the audience...he shared with us the intriguing 'fact' that Phil Klass had threatened to kill him. When called on this, he retreated to the position that even if Klass did not mean the threat seriously, he was nevertheless 'sick.' All the Believers in the audience semeed to agree with this," with the exception of Moseley.<br /><br />Pathetic.<br /><br />> KR: "You [Lance] seem to overlook that Klass made up solutions for UFO cases"<br /><br />So that makes it okay to tell (and bless!) stories about Klass that have no confirmation whatsoever? Confirmation NO ONE has looked for, I might add? Isn't that hypocrisy? Or is this a grade school playground?<br /><br />> KR: "I knew that all those who believe Klass did nothing wrong would rise up to defend him when all I did was report on what Pierce told me."<br /><br />That's too easy, sir, to redefine genuine dissent into mere partisanship. Does doubting Pearce -- by definition! -- make me a liar??? Is there no objection that will be countenanced then? They are ALL dismissed out of hand? I object to Pierce's tale on the merits, as noted above and in previous comments sections. <br /><br />And I say all this as someone who holds no brief for Phil Klass. As stated sometime ago on this site, I avoided his writings because of what seemed like Klass' unrelenting partisanship, and partisanship is not something I find trustworthy. My study of the Hill case forced me to look at Klass and his co-equal in fact-free overzealousness, Mr. Friedman.<br /><br />Regardless of my disgust with ideologues, I still do not think anyone is free to tell lies about them. Claims need to be verified, tested, not passed on wholesale and rationalised because the appeal to our biases.<br /><br />Shame!Terry the Censorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361088223337740598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-52977479425897408032012-08-05T23:43:52.171-07:002012-08-05T23:43:52.171-07:00Wow! I have my doubts. Is that allowed without bei...Wow! I have my doubts. Is that allowed without being called names?<br /><br />Anyway, here I go:<br /><br />> [Jim] Click said that Klass had called him and wanted him to relay a message to Steve. Klass was willing to pay ten thousand dollars if Steve would say that the whole thing was a hoax.<br /><br />Has anyone verified this story or even attempted to find if Click is still alive?<br /><br />Klass himself reports on this episode on p 221 of "UFOs: The Public Deceived," published in 1983! He says he learned about this from reading Bill Barry's book! Klass says that only afterward did he contact Click, who gave him Pierce's contact information. No one challenged Klass' rebuttal for 29 years! Why now?<br /><br />> Jeffrey Steven Pierce. He had begun to use his middle name after his fellows in elementary school began to tease him about his first name. <br /><br />Can anyone on Earth tell me how a kid could be teased for having the name Jeff? Anyone???<br /><br />> Klass had a copy of that first polygraph examination that listed his name as Jeff S. Pierce, so Klass had that information. That was how Klass could find him.<br /><br />Can anyone verify this claim? It does not appear in any of Klass' books (oh, have people failed to mention that?).<br /><br />> Steve said that he told his wife that he just might take the money.<br /><br />Has anyone spoken to Mrs. Pierce about this? Or is the story just better without investigation??<br /><br />> Steve told me, “Phil Klass is the only person I ever told it was a hoax. I wanted the money.”<br /><br />So, we are to believe that Pierce DID say this but Klass NEVER told anyone that Pierce confessed to a hoax? And are we to believe this even though Klass denies Pierce made such a confession to him in the 1983 citation I made above???<br /><br />> He did know Klass and described his personality correctly. I had noticed the same things. Klass was quite charming when he wasn’t in the middle of a UFO debate<br /><br />I never met Phil Klass but I also know that. Why? Because I read UFO books and blogs.Terry the Censorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361088223337740598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-76504745260825317642012-08-05T21:31:59.684-07:002012-08-05T21:31:59.684-07:00Kevin,
So here goes the old "argument from w...Kevin,<br /><br />So here goes the old "argument from witness reliability" once again. J. Allen Hynek used to say that he, as a highly educated and scientific-type person, could judge whether or not a person is credible, just by listening to them talk. And if they described an object violating all of the laws of physics, if they said it 'credibly,' then for old J. Allen that was proof enough that such objects were real.<br /><br />Do you have that skill as well? You can decide, just from listening to him talk, that what Steve Pierce says is true? Even in the absence of any proof whatsoever, Pierce's unsupported word suffices?<br /><br />Kevin, did you ask Pierce to provide any DETAILS, let alone proof, of what he claims? When, exactly, did Klass supposedly visit him in Texas? Where in Texas? Does he have any proof that this visit, or these phone calls, ever took place? Does he have any note or letter from Klass, something like "I'll be there Saturday?" Of course not.<br /><br />Remember, Pierce told the 2012 International UFO Congress that Klass flew out to Texas to wine and dine and try to persuade him. He also claimed that Klass kept following him, he had to move to like three different states, to get away from Klass. (Anyone who doubts this can check the DVD of that session.) Kevin, did you ask Pierce exactly what states those were, when did he move there, can he provide any proof that Klass was involved, etc? I suspect not.<br /><br />Of course, for those who share J. Allen Hynek's ability to infallibly judge character, proof of Pierce's tale would seem unnecessary.<br /><br />Kevin, I quoted and linked to your Blog entry about Chasing UFOs in my most recent Blog on that subject. Good work!Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-83982256038245151152012-07-30T09:12:56.814-07:002012-07-30T09:12:56.814-07:00http://flyingtigercomics.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/t...http://flyingtigercomics.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html<br /><br /> Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation<br />Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation<br /> <br /> 1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil<br /> 2. Become incredulous and indignant<br /> 3. Create rumor mongers<br /> 4. Use a straw man<br /> 5. Sidetrack opponents w name calling, ridicule<br /> 6. Hit and Run<br /> 7. Question motives<br /> 8. Invoke authority<br /> 9. Play Dumb<br />10. Associate opponent charges with old news<br />11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions<br />12. Enigmas have no solution<br />13. Alice in Wonderland Logic<br />14. Demand complete solutions<br />15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions<br />16. Vanish evidence and witnesses<br />17. Change the subject<br />18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad <br />19. Ignore facts, demand impossible proofs<br />20. False evidence<br />21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor<br />22. Manufacture a new truth<br />23. Create bigger distractions<br />24. Silence critics<br />25. Vanish<br /> <br />Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist<br /> <br /> 1. Avoidance<br /> 2. Selectivity<br /> 3. Coincidental<br /> 4. Teamwork<br /> 5. Anti-conspiratorial<br /> 6. Artificial Emotions<br /> 7. Inconsistent<br /> 8. Newly Discovered: Time ConstantAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04355521785297533930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-44525026320339526212012-07-29T17:08:35.461-07:002012-07-29T17:08:35.461-07:00What is it about this case that generates such ani...What is it about this case that generates such animosity? It's not the first, nor the only documented alien-abduction case. <br /><br />Travis Walton wrote about this in some detail in his book. The hostile reactions of some people with whom he came in contact. The ferocious personal attacks by debunkers and even some UFO groups who, after failing to gain access to investigate the case, attempted to discredit him. Klass was the most fervent, but he was not the only one. Perhaps it's because the facts of the case leave little wiggle room for either side. When you have multiple, close-range witnesses to an event, all of whom have passed polygraphs, there isn't a lot of material on which to build a case of mistaken identity. Even in the Roswell case, investigators on both sides can, with some civility, argue their cases for or against the fact that the first-hand witnesses were simply mistaken about what they thought they saw. I don't know that I've ever heard anyone suggest that any of the Walton witnesses were mistaken. Either it really happened, or it was a hoax. Putting the polygraphs, the $10,000 bribe, the logging contract theory and all other possible hoax motives aside... if it was a hoax, debunkers, prove it! Your belief that there are no UFOs, ETs or alien abductions does not prove it's a hoax any more than a believer's belief in those things proves that it happened. Where is your hard evidence? Were the lights and generator used to hoax the event found hidden in Walton's garage? Do you have receipts showing that he, his family or the any of the other men purchased or rented these items? Of course not, because this would be proof and this case would have gone away long ago. <br /><br />Has there ever been a "Mythbuster" type attempt to actually re-create the elaborate hoax scenario that Klass and others have suggested? It's been done in other cases, why not the biggest hoaxed abduction case of all time? If it's such an obvious hoax, then take your big lights and generator (those of the type that would have been available to Walton in 1975), and drag them up those unpaved logging roads to the Mogollon rim, stage the event, invite the original witnesses to the site to observe your re-creation and then ask them if it looks anything like what they saw that night. <br /><br />What Klass did or didn't do is old news and is dead and buried along with him. If you have some new evidence that this was a hoax, bring it..if you do not, then your opinions are just that, opinions, no more or less than Kevin's opinion that Pierce is telling the truth.edithkeelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995689322743125545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-40458917822094147782012-07-29T05:52:54.395-07:002012-07-29T05:52:54.395-07:00Klass debunked the $10,000 bribe story himself.
R...Klass debunked the $10,000 bribe story himself. <br />Read the conversation between Klass and Pierce:<br /><b>http://www.debunker.com/historical/APS_Files_Walton.PDF</b><br />(Save the PDF, then rotate it to the proper view.)<br />The $10,000 bribe story is false.Curt Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13773941506205598439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-42542271413041246592012-07-28T20:44:44.035-07:002012-07-28T20:44:44.035-07:00The thing that always amazes me about the Klass fa...The thing that always amazes me about the Klass fans is that no matter how many lies he has been shown to tell or how many lies he has wanted others to tell - they still have a core belief in him. Strange since they would not feel the same way about anyone telling something from the other side of the topic, who had lied about anything! I guess all is well in fandom! ;-)LesleyinNMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07650512451759278182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-76805776213712379012012-07-28T15:01:11.372-07:002012-07-28T15:01:11.372-07:00Kevin:
Klass may have invented a solution for Soc...Kevin:<br /><br />Klass may have invented a solution for Socorro. I don't deny this. He also made mistakes and had questionable ethics at times (such as when he once tried to interfere with the organisation of a UFO conference). <br /><br />But consider: What do you think you, and plenty of others like you, have done with Roswell? You have invented a solution that is unacceptable, and unknown to science, all because you want to believe certain verbal testimony given to you decades afterwards which contradicts the testimony and evidence given at the time, and which flies completely in the face of the official investigation at the time and another one 47 years later. <br /><br />The hard evidence that Socorro was a hoax is not there. Ditto with Travis Walton. <br /><br />The hard evidence that Roswell was ET is likewise not there. And it never will be, will it?cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-12780512758065593242012-07-28T14:02:33.404-07:002012-07-28T14:02:33.404-07:00Lance -
I merely reported what Pierce told me. I ...Lance -<br /><br />I merely reported what Pierce told me. I mentioned my reactions to his story. I mentioned that we both had found Klass to be rather charming when he wasn't involved in a flying saucer "investigation."<br /><br />You seem to overlook that Klass made up solutions for UFO cases... Yes, I have examples. Just reread what he wrote about Socorro and the mayor inventing the tale for tourism.<br /><br />In his Kaufmann reporting he was wrong about Kaufmann's rank leaving the service, he was wrong about why Kaufmann wanted to remove his name (it had nothing to do with Pflock). He missed the boat when he talked about who would have been involved in the recover after the first day.<br /><br />And you don't have to shout... you wouldn't know about Pierce going to take the money if he hadn't said it and I hadn't reported it.<br /><br />I didn't report on the alleged claim that Pierce moved to get away from Klass because he didn't say that to me, and this was about what he said to me.<br /><br />To my way of thinking, you reject everything that doesn't fit into your world view because it doesn't fit into your world view. You know there is no alien visitation and therefore there is none.<br /><br />And I repeat, I knew that all those who believe Klass did nothing wrong would rise up to defend him when all I did was report on what Pierce told me...KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-56209747943158847912012-07-28T13:36:58.607-07:002012-07-28T13:36:58.607-07:00Kevin,
I just wanted to remind folks that Pierce ...Kevin,<br /><br />I just wanted to remind folks that Pierce made the rather farfetched claim that he moved to get away from Klass.<br /><br />I mentioned this claim back in March as well.<br /><br />You simply ignore this and pretend that you can tell if someone is sincere by talking with them--not something you have a great track record for! <br /><br />Your post lends support to Pierce's story despite there being clear reasons in hand doubt it, including phone conversation transcripts and the tall tale of moving his home to escape Klass.<br /><br />To my way of thinking, you use the exact same conspiracy buff "logic" to "prove" whatever you want to be true in the stuff you do related to Roswell.<br /><br />Klass had a rotten disposition sometimes. There is no doubt about that. That you choose to hang a dubious cloud over Klass' head because someone WHO ADMITS IN HIS OWN STORY TO YOU THAT HE WAS WILLING TO DO ANYTHING TO GET MONEY seems sincere is sadly typical of the kind of thinking you use in your Roswell "investigations".<br /><br />Perhaps Pierce is just enjoying his newfound fame among the non-too-discerning saucer crowd in the same way that Dennis, Kaufmann etc etc. did.<br /><br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-6149784274909787182012-07-28T12:51:38.195-07:002012-07-28T12:51:38.195-07:00I knew when I posted this that the Klass defenders...I knew when I posted this that the Klass defenders would spring into action but I didn't know it would be this fast.<br /><br />For those with short memories, I published the other side of this controversy on March 3, 2012, which included a link to Robert Sheaffer's website with all its information from Klass about this, and the results of Robert's investigation as well.<br /><br />carddown -<br /><br />We all know about Klass' $10,000 bet... I believe that he only had four takers (I know Stan Friedman took him up on it) and this isn't really the same thing.<br /><br />Lance -<br /><br />Is it possible for you to comment on a posting without getting snotty? What a shame that you don't want to see the other side of the story...<br /><br />CDA -<br /><br />Your memory is as short term as Lance's... I already posted the other side of this controversy. Why is it that you don't want to read what the other guy has to say, especially when I talked to him in person?<br /><br />And all - once again, this ten grand was not the same as the ten grand in the bet... it, according to Steve Pierce, was money offered for proof that the Walton abduction was a hoax.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-81445344092299387452012-07-28T12:28:46.828-07:002012-07-28T12:28:46.828-07:00Monthly phone calls from Klass? Really? Lance has...Monthly phone calls from Klass? Really? Lance has given you a reference to this 'bribe' story and the other side thereof.<br /><br />I suggest that if Klass ever did mention the sum of $10,000 to this guy Pierce, or to anyone else who might have passed it on to Pierce, it was in connection with Klass's $10,000 offer to anyone for proof of ET visitation as detailed in his book UFOS EXPLAINED, chapter 31.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-51436868882133299642012-07-28T12:10:34.528-07:002012-07-28T12:10:34.528-07:00It was reported elsewhere that Piece claimed that ...It was reported elsewhere that Piece claimed that he actually moved his home in order to get away from Klass.<br /><br />I'm sure that strikes the conspiracy buffs as reasonable...<br /><br />Did he have that Kaufmanesque feeling of sincerity, Kevin?<br /><br />Robert Sheaffer uncovered the whole (different) story (including phone transcripts) over at his site. But then, I know that contemporaneous evidence never has much weight amongst the UFO brain trust.<br /><br />What a shame you didn't bother to consider that in light of the fact that one party can't deny these dumb accusations.<br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-32228486607455587902012-07-28T10:56:51.464-07:002012-07-28T10:56:51.464-07:00The real $10,000 Klass offer:
http://www.pbs.org/w...The real $10,000 Klass offer:<br />http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/aliens/philipklass.htmlCurt Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13773941506205598439noreply@blogger.com