Over
the last few hours, I have received a half dozen notifications about James
Carrion’s book about the Roswell UFO crash, The
Roswell Deception. Carrion’s been working on it for a long time, and, has “previewed”
parts of it on several
occasions. The book is long so that I haven’t had time
to read the whole thing yet. I do know that he is passionate about his
explanation.
 |
| James Carrion. Photo copyright by Kevin Randle |
One
other thing of note. He was, at one time he was the International Director of MUFON,
and in February 2010, gave up that position. He said that as a single parent, with
aging parents and other responsibilities, he simply didn’t have the time. His
own UFO research into role of the government in UFO research was also taking
his time.
For
those who would like to see a different perspective (you knew I would have to
say that didn’t you), you can read his book free here:
As
I say, I haven’t read the book, so I’m really not in a good position to comment
on the content. When I get the chance, I’ll try to post something about it…
Apropos
of nothing at all, I will mention that we’ve been provided with another theory
for the Roswell debris this year… the Satelloon. I don’t believe that a
Satelloon is the solution, but heaven forbid that I say anything negative about
it.
So,
give this a read, see what you all think, and provide a comment if you are so
moved.
Thanks Kevin for sharing this. I have been looking forward to this work but had no clue it had been released.
ReplyDeleteHIs hypothesis reminds me of one of the theories that Vallee presented in "Messengers of Deception", but differs on the motivations behind the deception.
Either way, it does offer an alternative view to the events of the 1947.
I remember the last time Mr. Carrion was on your blogger page and commented about Roswell quite well. Because I and many other followers took you side about what happened in the desert of New Mexico in 1947, Mr. Carrion didn't agreed with the possibility that there even could have been a real crash.
ReplyDeleteSo if Mr. Carrion want to try to change my opinion, I simply say bring your "A" game this time.
No I have not read it either. Can you believe that a 523-page book on Roswell is being published 70 years after the event? Why it is almost as big as that 580-page (or whatever) Brexit document we in the UK have had to endure (some of us). Keeps your mind active, I suppose!
ReplyDeleteBetter to have No Deal, than a Bad deal - right!!
DeleteIt's not 500+ pages about Roswell specifically, but rather seems to cover the entire Summer of 1947.
DeleteI say "seems to" as I haven't gotten to far in yet. However, I disagree with his arguments on Kenneth Arnold's sighting.
cda: Roswell's more important than Brexit (!)
ReplyDeleteAnd so is Rendlesham Forest !!!
CHEERS & HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Adam, what do you disagree with on the Arnold sighting?
ReplyDeleteRegards, James
As I expect many within the UFO community will post their disagreements, it will help the discussion if you specify exactly what you disagree with and cite contrary and contemporary-to-the-events evidence for your disagreement. I stress contemporary because to argue against any assertions I make in the book while citing for example, witness testimony collected 30 - 70 years after the fact, will be a waste of everyone's time. If you have raw original evidence of known provenance to back up your disagreement, I am all ears. If I don't respond to a disagreement on this forum, please consider my silence as avoiding the apples vs. oranges scenario I just pointed out.
ReplyDeleteRegards,
James
ReplyDeleteHi James,
I should preface that I do agree with you that I believe the intelligence behind the 1947 phenomena is human. But, I respectfully disagree that it entailed any intentional deception: at least, at first. Certainly, by the 1970s deception was the name of the game heh.
I will just focus on your analysis of Arnold since I am only around page 120 so far. My thoughts/disagreements:
1) The crashed Marine Transport plane that Arnold, and other pilots were searching for. Eerily, one of the JSC members who organized the deception, his hometown was nearby Mount Rainer (I forget the name of the town) where the plane went down. As such, he might have heard crash and the handsome reward which was being offered. Since, he knew the area he would also know about the Spring/Summer thaw and that the plane would probably be located (and the reward claimed) during that time. Since lots of people would looking for this plane to collect the reward, this would be a perfect place to set up a honeypot for the deception.
- Frankly, to me this is completely plausible and I have always wondered why more writers haven't focused on the crashed Transport. To me, it always seemed like it possessed significance. But, that said, I'm not sure if there is something to this, or if it is just an interesting coincidence regarding the JSC members hometown.
2) Arnold's initial focus was on the lack of tails on the objects he sighted, only then becoming aware of their speed. As such, the objects could actually have been misidentified (disguised?) and were actually known flying craft of the day.
- I believe you mention some possible candidates for these objects such as the flying wings which were around then, Northrop, Horton Brothers designs, etc. I know the possibility of a Northrop design has been floating around UFO circles for a while. However, I was under the impression the history of these craft are all fairly well-documented and no researcher, to date, has found any evidence that a fleet of them were flying around The Cascades during the time frame in question. Does that mean, it didn't happen. Of course not. It just means we don't have documentation for it. But, until said documentation is discovered and proven, it is just something we should keep in the back of our minds.
3) The curious limit of 9000 feet and good air quality during the objects observed flights. It is possible that this could have been to disguise them so that people couldn't readily identify what the deceptions really were.
- Again, absolutely plausible, but I would have to ask could there be other reasons for these limits. Deception is a good reason, but could air velocity and other atmospheric also be reasons? A quick Google search didn't reveal anything, but I would like to have seen this fleshed out more to see if there is something there.
These are my thoughts so far anyway. I would definitely be interested in seeing your rebuttals (teardowns?) :-p
Adam,
ReplyDeleteFirst, thanks for taking the time to actually read the book, as I am sure many will just criticize it out right without even reading it. Second, your arguments are clear and well laid out. Let me respond to each one.
1. The fact that Navy Captain Harry Raymond Thurber’s hometown was also Hoquiam, Washington where one of the Marine Transport crash victims was from could be just coincidence but is highly interesting.
2. I actually never said that what sped past Mount Rainier were Horten Wings. On the front cover of the book is a 1946 newspaper clip of three Northrop N9M flying wings flying in formation (scaled down prototypes 60-ft span all-wing aircraft used for the development of the full size, 172-ft wingspan Northrop XB-35 and YB-35 flying wing long-range, heavy bomber). I am not even saying that what Arnold saw were N9Ms. What I was pointing out was that Arnold was most intrigued by the lack of a tail, but that was not new for the time. What exactly sped past Mount Rainier, I don't know. Could have been 3 N9Ms each towing two other airfoils. Could have been 9 deception airfoils dropped from a high altitude. You are correct in asserting that until the original deception script is revealed, we won't know specifically.
3. The 9000 foot smooth atmospherics was Arnold's observation. I only pointed it out because he was puzzled by the pattern and it doesn't sound like something "alien" aircraft would be limited to. I think at this point we can agree that something was really flying around and triggered the 1947 wave and they were either human made or not. If human, they were either Russian or American. As you pointed out earlier, research shows they were not an American fleet of "real" aircraft and I have provided evidence based on real Intelligence from that time to show they were not Russian. So that leaves two other possibilities: they were either human made "deception" aircraft or non-human. When putting Arnold's atmospheric and altitude observations into that context, human-made deception is the more plausible choice. More importantly it has corroborating evidence contemporaneously recorded at the time (others seeing object dropped and tied together from airplanes) and has precedent from WW2 deception operations.
I would like to mention as I did early on in the book that the Human Deception Hypothesis (HDH) is just that - a hypothesis. Greater research is needed to put flesh on the skeleton I have assembled in the book. The real question is who else will take up the gauntlet of this research?
I think back to the times when Friedman, Moore, etc. were actively commuting to Government archives and digging for clues to put flesh on the bones of the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis (ETH). It is sad to see today that in the UFO community there are no longer any Friedmans or Moores around. Imagine what they would have uncovered if they were trying to prove/disprove the HDH instead of the ETH? Instead today, all I see are "collectors" ... from MUFON to other research groups. They collect, collect, collect, but never take their data and fit it "Somewhere". I find this to be a colossal waste of time and effort.
Thanks again for carefully reading the book and asking well-thought questions. Regards, James
James: I read the whole thing last night. It is my opinion that you are correct.
ReplyDeleteJames -
ReplyDeleteArnold couldn't have seen N9Ms... they last flew in 1946. I checked this out when Karl Pflock had suggested this as the source of the Roswell debris. The XB-35s were not flying in June 1947. All nine had been ground because of gearbox problems and the jet version didn't fly until later in the year. Just thought that I would mention this.
Kevin, I don't believe that is accurate. Here is a newspaper article from June 1947 showing the N9M was still being test flown: https://kvisit.com/QA/nqgB
ReplyDeleteRegards,
James
Also, the XB-35 was test flown in June 1947 as this newspaper article shows: https://kvisit.com/QA/n6gB
ReplyDeleteAgain, I am not saying either the N9M or the XB-35 were what Arnold saw, but they are possibilities.
James -
ReplyDeleteI grow tired of ambiguity (not your fault). According to the vague documentation I have, I know that the first N9-M crashed in May 1946 and with the development of the XB-35, two others were sent to the Air Force for training purposes, but there is nothing to suggest that they were ever used for the purpose. The remaining aircraft, the N9-MB, was left to rot at MUROC until rescued in the mid-1990s. I think the aircraft mentioned in the article you cited was that... however, it doesn't actually say that it flew, only that it was tested, which could mean anything, which is what I meant by ambiguity. However, since we're talking about Arnold and he saw 9 objects, this eliminates any version of the N9-M because only four were built (I cite Richard P. Hallion, A Synopsis of Flying Wing Development published by the History Officer, Air Force Flight Test Center). Once they had the XB-35, first flown on June 25, 1946, there was no need for the N9-M.
I note further that in June 1947, there were apparently only three XB-35s capable of flight and delivered for testing. This alone eliminates them from the Arnold sighting. I do have an article from the Chicago Daily News, July 10, 1947. A spokesman at Muroc said, that the disks "could not be their flying wing airplanes."
Robert L. Jones, the public relations officer at Muroc said, "None of our flying wings has been in the air recently... They couldn't be the so-called flying wings." He also said, "We have just two."
Since we are talking about Arnold, I think that eliminates the flying wing from consideration. It should also eliminate it from Roswell since they are all accounted for and none crashed in the proper place at the proper time. Hallion published a list of all the Northrop flying wings... in various configurations (meaning number and type of engines, for example) there were 15 built, five crashed and 7 pilots were killed but nothing suggesting they were ever flown in New Mexico.
Now, before anyone says that I'm interpreting that "other planes tested," line not necessarily saying it flew, but was tested, I fully admit that I am doing that, but only because of the vague nature of the article. That is splitting a fine hair... and I would bet that it did fly, the article just doesn't say that. The real point here, is that neither the N9-M nor the XB-35, were built in quantities sufficient to account for the nine objects Arnold saw. Nor is there any evidence that they were in the air at the location of the Arnold sighting. They might account for other UFO sightings in that era, but not for Arnold.
Kevin,
ReplyDeleteThe newspaper article explicitly states "Also flown were..." and the N9M is one of them.
Again I am not adamant that what Arnold saw was either a N9M or a XB-35. I also don't rule them out based on air-worthy quantity because what Arnold saw does not have to equal 9 individual self powered aircraft. One aircraft could have been towing 8 deception airfoils ... or 3 aircraft could have been towing 2 deception airfoils each or X powered aircraft could have towed y deception airfoils..
I don't believe either the N9M, the XB-35, or any other aircraft crashed at Roswell..as I have yet to find contemporaneously recorded evidence to substantiate that a crash even occurred. Yes, debris was found but no one witnessed an object fly and crash and record it either in a diary, or report it to a newspaper at the time. Any claims otherwise came much later.
Kevin, in reading some information on the net about both aircraft, the secrecy tag on both was removed after WWII. Thereby the public knew of both. While this might sound like a small fact, even in the event that either were to crash in the Roswell, NM area, if they were ever there, the security to surrounding a US built aircraft would not been as high if they had crashed.
ReplyDeleteThanks James for responding to my points. You still provide an interesting thesis and thanks especially for releasing it open domain!
ReplyDeleteThe KGB were behind the colorful conspiracy topics of Hitler escaping and living in South America, and of the CIA inventing the AIDS virus. So, it wouldn't surprise me if UFOs turned out to be an intelligence ploy. In fact, it seems pretty well concrete that the intelligence agencies were behind it in the 70s and 80s (Paul Bennowitz, Holloman landing film, some abduction accounts, etc.). So, who knows heh :-)
James,
ReplyDeleteAlso, the discs the AF admitted to releasing from a plane...could this have possibly been some form of Radar Chaff testing?
Thanks,
Adam
James -
ReplyDeleteIn the copy you posted, and I've gone back to look again, it said in the headline, "Other Planes Tested..." But, I see now where it also says, "Other planes flown." Somehow missed that. Mea culpa.
However, since there was only a single N9-M left in the inventory, and since, as best I can tell, there were only two XB-35s (the third to be delivered in August 1947), this really doesn't work as an explanation for Arnold, which was, of course, my point.
Adam,
ReplyDeleteThere were discs or "objects" seen being dropped from planes contemporaneously with Arnold or soon after. Could that have been chaff? I can't rule it out but given that chaff is a radar countermeasure, I don't know why the Air Force would be dropping chaff in sight of the civilian population. It is the Air Force that told the FBI in private correspondence to be on the lookout for "subversives" dropping discs tied together from high altitudes.
Mr. Carrion, you have used the term several times, "I can't rule out" to everything but, if what Arnold was saying is true. He says he saw "flying saucers", aka "UFO's" as we know them today.
ReplyDeleteSo my question to you is, you "Can't rule out" airplanes or chaff but it seems you are firm on 'ruling out' the reality of possibility that UFO's do really exist?
I am one who saw one very big cylinder UFO in 2003 at was pretty close. I have "Ruled Out" that what I saw was anything made on earth.
Mr. Sweepy
Mr. Sweepy. I get that a lot. Most "believers" think I am on a hell-bent mission of debunking all UFOs and experiences. Far from it. I am simply sifting the chaff from the wheat (no pun intended)... I have yet to come across anything from 1946 - 1947 that is alien or extraterrestrial in nature... I have documented a lot of deception of the human variant going on.. I have said this many times before, we will never get to the truth of the matter unless we first eliminate the human factor. My favorite episode from the X-Files is when a couple gets abducted by two aliens on a rural road, and then the couple and their abductors are abducted by another alien. Later we find out the first group of aliens were really Air Force guys in disguise.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Arnold have a SECOND sighting, much closer to his plane, which occurred on either the day he flew out to investigate Maury island or the day he returned from this. Once again there were several objects, not just one.
ReplyDeleteMr. Sweppy,
ReplyDeleteRespectfully, Arnold never used the term "Flying Saucers". He said that objects moved "as a saucer would if skipped across water." The term Flying Saucers was coined by one of the Newsmen seeking a catchy moniker for the story.
For what its worth, the motion of these objects (and speed) Arnold described almost perfectly fits the Ramjet Engine that was envisioned by an Austrian Engineer named Eugen Sanger who worked for the Germans in WW2. Mr. Carrion discusses this in his book and it has also been mentioned on Project 1947 and CUFOS.
But, of course, we have no evidence that this engine was in use then so for now it exists as just another funny coincidence that exists in this topic.
CDA,
Yes, in his book he said that while flying to Tacoma he saw a group of objects that were similar to the ones he sighted (albeit smaller and different colored).
...I have the book "Three Minutes in June" by Bruce Maccabee, a nice investigation of the Arnold sighting. On the rear cover is an artists rendition of what he saw; if you look at that drawing, what are the chances than an alien spaceship would resemble a 1945 Flying Wing almost exactly? If that drawing is accurate, or even close to accurate, I have to believe it was a human craft of some type...
ReplyDeleteI’ve just begun to read the book, so if this is covered in some fashion please forgive me.
ReplyDeletePersonally I’ve always believed Arnold saw something conventional, likely military, and classified. Arnold often wondered why the military didn’t tell him it was their’s (our’s) if in fact it really was, and he was perplexed as to why the military wasn’t aware of these objects flying in our airspace.
However, if the aircraft were indeed classified, there’s no reason why they would acknowledge anything to Arnold. The men sent to question him were likely not even briefed into the classified project, hence they couldn’t possibly answer his questions or concerns.
I’ve mentioned this here before and will do so again; the initial drawing of what Arnold saw — drawn by his own hand — surprisingly is identical to the classified AVRO Project Y or Manta airframe. Yes Arnold did also draw a flying wing craft (crescent shaped) with a crystalline cockpit — but he ADDED that later. He NEVER mentioned this in his original sighting report.
Arnold: https://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/alienabduction1.jpg
Yes, I realize that Project Y wasn’t made public until 1952-53 and that it never “officially” got off the ground. But Frost’s design was unique in that it had a large circular turbine engine underneath the arrow shaped craft AND was theoretically designed to fly at the 1,200 mph speeds Arnold claimed the objects he saw were traveling.
The AVRO engineering mock-up and sketches match Arnold’s drawing.
AVRO: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4x4MHJvkZxw/UrY8oGFSqHI/AAAAAAAAKeU/aCCOAl0L9OA/s1600/avro-omega12.jpg
Was Frost later influenced by Arnold’s 1947 saucer sighting, or did AVRO begin testing various airfoils like the Manta much earlier — say in 1947 — based on the Horton brothers captured designs and with influence from Northrop’s flying wings of late WWII?
Let’s recall details of the AVRO Project were not declassified until the 1990’s. That says something.
It’s also noteworthy the William Rhodes sighting of July 1947 seems to show a near identical shape, and with a hollow center, which may in fact be the AVRO turbine engine as seen from below.
Rhodes: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PXeDY3KOwgA/TBaG2I1GzYI/AAAAAAAAFcg/7QRoAVfw23k/s1600/Rhodes+Whatsis.jpg
To Carrions’ point (and thesis) — did Arnold possibly observe AVRO mockups being TOWED by a Northrop flying wing headed to a classified location in the SW United States for further testing?
After all, these AVRO projects were contracted in secret for the US Military. As quoted in “The Hunt For Zero Point”, it has been hinted that the AVRO turbine engine was to be substituted for a more exotic T.T. Brown engine — something Brown was already testing in the late 1940’s.
If true, what Arnold saw were mockups in TOW, and it’s just conjecture, but what may have crashed at Roswell was perhaps an early classified AVRO-type craft unknown to most USAAF personnel.
The entire AVRO Silverbug fiasco may have simply been a purposeful deception just hide the truth about successfully engineered human made saucers.
Brian B, my concern about Avro Spade/Project Y invovlement isn't just with the dates. There is simply no evidence the craft was ever operational even later in the 1950s when they were branding it about the public to try and entice funding. There is also the design of the vehicle itself where the cockpit of the model in question faced the tip/point, whereas Arnold's drawing had the tip/point in the rear. I see your point about possible mockups in tow (thus maybe the craft was reversed), but I have never heard of mockups (and especially classified ones) being towed by another aircraft. It seems incredibly dangerous on several levels.
ReplyDeleteAlso, one mention of possible interest, in the background/literature section in the Silverbug Manual/Report: the engineers were quite adamant that their project should be in "no way" associated with any Flying Saucer reports. This could suggest that they had no involvement and no knowledge on the origin of any craft responsible for such reports. It also might show just what they thought of such reports heh.
IMO, the object in question (Arnold's sighting) is something that hasn't been declassified yet. Whether that is intentional on the part of the military or the possibility that no one has simply looked in the right place; remains up in the air (pun intended :-) ).
Another hypothisis off base. Lets see, how many explanations now for this event? Lots of flaws, but have no time for details at the moment. Suffice to say I do not buy it. But that is just my opinion, based on all of the data I have seen. Unless some real evidence surfaces, we have way to many books about Roswell...
ReplyDeleteBen Moss, "We have way too many books about Roswell..." my book is not just about Roswell but the entire Saucer Summer of 1947 - covering Kenneth Arnold, Roswell and Maury Island and everything in between.
ReplyDeleteOf course you actually have to read the book...but based on your comments I don't think you will get past the first chapter where I warn readers that if your mind is already made up, you should put the book down.
For those whose minds are still open, you don't have to take my assertions at face value, as I have included an extensive set of end notes with links to the original documentation that you can download and review for yourself.
After reading of the UFO/Alien situation for nearly 50 years I've come to realize the full extent of Military/Intelligence involvement....Consider yourself very lucky if you have seen a 'real' UFO.
ReplyDeleteBen Moss - funny comment coming from the guy who backs up the ridiculous Ray Stanford story about going back to Socorro years after the sighting (to the dynamite shack area) - and that Ray was taking random pictures of the sky - and that once the film was developed (that's always one of my favorite stories "We didn't notice anything right then & there - but once the film was developed...") Ray noticed the EXACT same egg shaped flying saucer that Lonnie Zamora saw COMPLETE WITH LANDING GEAR EXTENDED. You said you were going to provide proof of this like 5 years ago on the Paracast - but I noticed that never happened & you along with this ludicrous story just slithered away into the woodwork.
ReplyDelete