tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post1456630450898055605..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: History's Greatest Mysteries - A Quick AnalysisKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-33277217834720394522021-01-09T16:51:14.493-08:002021-01-09T16:51:14.493-08:00E8 -
Well, there is no evidence that a Mogul ball...E8 -<br /><br />Well, there is no evidence that a Mogul balloon was responsible. Dr. Crary said the flight was cancelled. And the cluster of balloons was just that, a cluster and not an array. The only thing you have is the statement published in the Daily Record, which is contradicted by Brazel himself...<br /><br />Frank Joyce said that Brazel made a comment to him about the little green men in 1947. <br /><br />And, since neither you nor I talked to Mack Brazel, you don't know what all he might have said. Not to mention that the material found by Bill Brazel and shown to his father was said to be some of that contraption he had found.<br /><br />But what I don't understand is how you can reject the notes in Dr. Crary's diary which eliminates Mogul from the discussion... Or why you would accept the lies told by Charles Moore (and we can document those lies) so that he can place the non existent flight no. 4 near the ranch.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-65498219305225077352021-01-09T00:54:37.309-08:002021-01-09T00:54:37.309-08:00Bill Brazel told the story after the development o...Bill Brazel told the story after the development of fiber optics! Where's Mac Brazels mention in 1947? That would be impressive. Impressive and expected of something truly from outer space. Where is Brazels mention of anything not of Earth during his entire interview on July 9 1947? During a time he was trying to win a reward? Surely this would be mentioned. These properties keep being talked about 30 years later, but nothing in 1947. Brazel was the first to handle and gather the debris and would have know then. <br /><br />Of course this military coercion story is created to deflect from the truth in Mac Brazels story in 1947. Every piece of debris he described is human made. This attempted branch of the story makes no sense when approached logically. He was to support the weather balloon story told by the military, but says it's not a weather balloon in his story? <br /><br />Sorry, but I don't believe in he said she said coupled with no actual proof. Everybody lies, that's a fact. As the saying goes, the burden of proof lies with the claimant. In particular a claimant of these incredible findings. <br /><br />I'll leave it there.E8https://www.blogger.com/profile/06520302927574249663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-21585584060492379742021-01-07T08:49:28.037-08:002021-01-07T08:49:28.037-08:00E8 -
I have addressed the issue of the sticks and...E8 -<br /><br />I have addressed the issue of the sticks and paper reported in the Roswell Daily Record for years. I covered in Roswell in the 21st Century. We have witnesses who handled the debris that suggest something more substantial than sticks and paper and tape.<br /><br />I did not say that fiber optics appeared out of no where. I said that Bill Brazel, in describing some of the material that he found, said that it had the properties of fiber optics which were not available in 1947.<br /><br />I also attempted to make it clear that though witnesses used terms with which they were familiar, it didn't mean that the debris was made of those things. Brazel said that one of the pieces was light, like balsa wood, but so touch he couldn't get a shaving off it. You need to review some of those older reports which were based on first-hand testimony. Bill Brazel described for me, the three items that he found, and none of them would be considered to be part of a balloon array.<br /><br />RWE -<br /><br />I was there, in Fort Worth, as we made the scans of the Ramey Memo. When Gene Cooper left, after we had completed the word there, he was on his way home to analyze the results using his laboratory facilities. There was nothing in the program to suggest what he might have found there... just what we were able to see while still in Fort Worth.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-69219988851322636602021-01-07T06:10:04.957-08:002021-01-07T06:10:04.957-08:00Well, I think they did report the results of the s...Well, I think they did report the results of the scanning of the Ramey message (it appeared to be a telex message, not a memo. I have written a great many of both). A curious aspect is that it did not have any prominent classification markings, which you would expect if it was something as earth shaking as is being asserted.<br /><br />They reported that the highly sophisticated scanning technique analyzed the fuzzy wolds and produced even fuzzier words. Any "better" scan you would be looking at the molecular level.<br /><br />They were not using a image enhancement program of the type that can look at a plate of spaghetti and produce the preamble to the US Constitution. They were just getting an even more detailed look at the fuzzy words. RWEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08060301488401028744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-12328003073983622002021-01-06T14:35:48.760-08:002021-01-06T14:35:48.760-08:00I'm not going around in circles I'm asking...I'm not going around in circles I'm asking a direct question that never gets answered, including here. Again, I find it extremely odd that it's just a coincidence that an alien spacecraft is built using foil, sticks, paper, tape, and eyelets just like balloons and radar targets are on Earth. You would think there would be a single material unrelatable to anything human. Why can no one, including yourself, own up this which would have to be fact for the other to fall in place? <br /><br />As far as fiber optics, there's a historic path to follow that shows fiber optics began in the 1840s with the discovery of light moving along a path with water. It continued to grow through the decades eventually using light to send information and the manufacturing of glass fibers. Fiber optics didn't spontaneously appear from nowhere with no explanation. There's a beginning. <br /><br />I can see this outlet is not getting anywhere and simple questions go unanswered here as well.E8https://www.blogger.com/profile/06520302927574249663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-46146837525647248982021-01-06T14:06:44.819-08:002021-01-06T14:06:44.819-08:00Yeah, I understand it. I don't think you do ac...Yeah, I understand it. I don't think <b>you</b> do actually. There is no way Loretta Proctor's (ever changing) story could be written off to "confabulation".09rjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14354154308391968845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-53620005831519034712021-01-06T13:51:24.194-08:002021-01-06T13:51:24.194-08:00Then clearly, you to not understand the concept of...Then clearly, you to not understand the concept of confabulation.<br /><br />BTW - I'm always looking at the testimonies of all those involved to ensure that we can understand what happened... and his is why we all know that Frank Kaufmann, Gerald Anderson and Glenn Dennis lied. No, not confabulated, lied.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-83289879710611743802021-01-05T14:52:04.292-08:002021-01-05T14:52:04.292-08:00I'm not sure how she could have "believed...I'm not sure how she could have "believed what she was saying was the truth" given some of her statements. <br /><br />But to avoid another food fight over witnesses I'll just say (as the French would) vive la différence.<br /><br />09rjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14354154308391968845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-81448845252930844692021-01-05T13:15:16.318-08:002021-01-05T13:15:16.318-08:0009rja -
Simply a matter of definition... Moore wa...09rja -<br /><br />Simply a matter of definition... Moore was caught lying... changing data to fit his scenario and Loretta Proctor believed what she was saying was the truth, even though it is clear that her testimony was contaminated by later published and broadcast information.<br /><br />We can say that Frank Kaufmann lied and Glenn Dennis lied and Gerald Anderson lied... all who told great stories about first-hand involvement that were later found to have no basis in fact.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-33486302194037169852021-01-05T11:33:44.153-08:002021-01-05T11:33:44.153-08:00It's interesting when stories in this get the ...It's interesting when stories in this get the euphemism "confabulation" (vs. just outright lies).....and when they don't. <br /><br />09rjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14354154308391968845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-10487207156916976092021-01-05T08:43:45.055-08:002021-01-05T08:43:45.055-08:0009rja -
There is a difference between Loretta Pro...09rja -<br /><br />There is a difference between Loretta Proctor and Charles Moore. Moore lied but Proctor confabulated.<br /><br />In this case we go back to Proctor's original statements and compare them with her later statements to see what changes have been made... and see if we can establish what the problem is. But the fact is, her original statement and her core story remained basically the same, and it was corroborated by others.<br /><br />Moore just changed the data, lied about the launch of Flight No. 4 as more evidence was found, and manipulated the data so that data confirmed his story. Crary's diary, among other documentation, showed that Moore was lying.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-49069023057344036712021-01-04T16:07:03.674-08:002021-01-04T16:07:03.674-08:00You simply ignore the descriptions of the material...<i>You simply ignore the descriptions of the material which do not meet your standards. Mack Brazel showed debris so Floyd and Loretta Proctor. She told Don Schmitt and me that the pencil-sized debris would not burn when Brazel tried to do that. Bill Brazel told us that he found debris that was as light as balsa but so touch he couldn't get carve a sliver with his pocket knife and suggested something that sounded like fiber optics... Tommy Tyree told us that the debris area was so thick with debris that the sheep refused to cross it. So, we do have descriptions of material that was certainly unavailable in 1947. I could add other descriptions given to us by various witnesses (those who held it or saw it) including what Jesse Marcel told others in 1947.<br /><br />Charles Moore manipulated the data, changed the words of Albert Crary and flat out lied about some of the things he said. The drawings of the array trains that have appeared in various books are inaccurate for the New Mexico launches. Rather than 600 feet long, they had been reduced by a third. He said that Flight No. 4 was launched in the pre-dawn hours, in violation of the regulations under which they operated. Even though Crary wrote that the flight was canceled, Moore said that it was the explanation.<br /><br />Crary's notes also said they launched a cluster of balloons, which was made up of neoprene weather balloons and might have included rawin targets. There is no evidence that this cluster ever left the confines of the White Sands Proving Grounds, and even Moore's own calculations for the winds aloft didn't put it on the Brazel ranch. There was nothing in any of those flights that wouldn't have been recognizable by any of those involved includig Brazel and Marcel. Several weather balloons attached to one another is not so extraordinary that they wouldn't have seen them as weather balloons... Oh, and Sheridan Cavitt told Don and me that he had never been involved in the recovery of any balloon.</i>~KRandle<br /><br />If you are going to examine Charles Moore's statements....you have to do the same with the people on the other side of the aisle.....starting with Loretta Proctor. The fact is: her story changed over the years.09rjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14354154308391968845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-88265941992384708122021-01-04T15:26:07.679-08:002021-01-04T15:26:07.679-08:00E8-
And around we go. Bill Brazel talked about fi...E8-<br /><br />And around we go. Bill Brazel talked about fiber optics... Bill Rickett talked about light weight material that was tougher than cold rolled steel...<br /><br />Actually, he would have found it earlier because the field in which the debris was discovered was one of the places where they could water the live stock. Bill Brazel said that his father was in that field almost every day.<br /><br />Oh, and for we writers in the 21st Century, how about you look at the book, Roswell in the 21st Century where many of these points about Mogul are addressed.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-20640522571702541752021-01-03T17:27:28.207-08:002021-01-03T17:27:28.207-08:00I'm not ignoring the properties of the materia...I'm not ignoring the properties of the materials at all. I covered it in my thread. Why the small members were hard to cut and burn? Read my thread, the possibility is in there. <br /><br />Amazing alien materials with properties that resist cutting or deforming yet are suspiciously discovered scattered across a large area of desert broken apart? <br />Why is it typical of believers in this case skip right over the actual materials of rubber, foil, parchment, eyelets, scotch and other tape? Why can't they admit it's just a massive coincidence to them that an alien spacecraft is constructed the same as balloons and radar targets? They do this every time.<br />Before these "amazing" properties, talk about the actual material for a second. I'll make it easy, I'll use Marcel's simplier description of tinfoil, small sticks, and paper. Again, it's only a coincidence that these three materials just so happen to be the exact same materials we use as humans to make radar targets launched 90 miles away during this exact time period in June 1947? The service/test flight that crashed could have been launched any day in early June for all we know. Brazel says he didn't walk up on it until June 14th. <br /><br />Crary's mentioning of that particular flight wasn't necessarily the flight that crashed. As I said, use that entry in his journal that in between service/test flights were being launched and not recorded. Flights were trending towards Roswell as reported and the Air Coordinating Commity had air traffic safety concerns. In fact, a full Mogul flight #5 landed 25 miles outside of Roswell because of prevailing winds. So other flights were absolutely landing in areas surrounding Roswell. <br /><br />Why haven't Mogul service/research/test flights been address and discussed to any length in these 21st century writings?E8https://www.blogger.com/profile/06520302927574249663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-50792094929624183602021-01-02T05:14:11.526-08:002021-01-02T05:14:11.526-08:00E8 -
You simply ignore the descriptions of the ma...E8 -<br /><br />You simply ignore the descriptions of the material which do not meet your standards. Mack Brazel showed debris so Floyd and Loretta Proctor. She told Don Schmitt and me that the pencil-sized debris would not burn when Brazel tried to do that. Bill Brazel told us that he found debris that was as light as balsa but so touch he couldn't get carve a sliver with his pocket knife and suggested something that sounded like fiber optics... Tommy Tyree told us that the debris area was so thick with debris that the sheep refused to cross it. So, we do have descriptions of material that was certainly unavailable in 1947. I could add other descriptions given to us by various witnesses (those who held it or saw it) including what Jesse Marcel told others in 1947.<br /><br />Charles Moore manipulated the data, changed the words of Albert Crary and flat out lied about some of the things he said. The drawings of the array trains that have appeared in various books are inaccurate for the New Mexico launches. Rather than 600 feet long, they had been reduced by a third. He said that Flight No. 4 was launched in the pre-dawn hours, in violation of the regulations under which they operated. Even though Crary wrote that the flight was canceled, Moore said that it was the explanation.<br /><br />Crary's notes also said they launched a cluster of balloons, which was made up of neoprene weather balloons and might have included rawin targets. There is no evidence that this cluster ever left the confines of the White Sands Proving Grounds, and even Moore's own calculations for the winds aloft didn't put it on the Brazel ranch. There was nothing in any of those flights that wouldn't have been recognizable by any of those involved includig Brazel and Marcel. Several weather balloons attached to one another is not so extraordinary that they wouldn't have seen them as weather balloons... Oh, and Sheridan Cavitt told Don and me that he had never been involved in the recovery of any balloon.<br /><br />So, I could go on, but suggest you take a look at the long discussion of Mogul that appears in Roswell in the 21st Century.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-58747232521396670122021-01-01T19:23:39.407-08:002021-01-01T19:23:39.407-08:00Simply put, wouldn't most agree that- rubber s...Simply put, wouldn't most agree that- rubber strips, tinfoil, tough paper, sticks, scotch tape, eyelets, all described by Brazel in 1947 point to the in-between Mogul service/test flight not an alien spacecraft? In particular the one drawn by Charles Moore in the Roswell Report? How does Marcels description not meet those same standards? "Small wood-like beams, tinfoil, paper" Where are the alien materials? It just happened to be constructed the same way as human constructed radar targets of the period? <br /><br />Brazel said:<br />"...two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these."<br />I've explained this. Two that were likely a single balloon, radar target, and measuring equipment that were intact and relatively small. The ones like were photographed and posted in newspapers during the time. The Mogul program, including in-between service/research/test flights, were large. It would have been 3 or 4 times larger than the he ones found previously and was broken apart and scattered over the desert. No, he never found weather observation balloons in that state. <br /><br />Charles Moore said in his signed Statement of Witness in The Roswell Report:<br />"I can think of no other explanation for Roswell than one of our early June service flight balloons "<br />There's your answer. E8https://www.blogger.com/profile/06520302927574249663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-91372408762459382702020-12-31T09:53:47.875-08:002020-12-31T09:53:47.875-08:00Lemurian -
I debated about posting this because i...Lemurian -<br /><br />I debated about posting this because it just reveals your ignorance of the case. Really? You cite Gerald Anderson, the man who was caught in multiple lies, who forged documents, changed his story significantly when challenges to it were made, and who obviously wasn't there, nor were any of his relatives... And Stan Friedman knew this but said nothing about it.<br /><br />All the witness testimony cited is traceable back to Barnett... His wife's diary mentions nothing about it, which should be considered a significant fact. If you have any information about a crash on the Plains of San Agustin (please note the proper spelling), then there really is nothing left to discuss.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-92184215974476780412020-12-31T09:46:40.461-08:002020-12-31T09:46:40.461-08:00E8 -
The problem here is that you only present pa...E8 -<br /><br />The problem here is that you only present part of the picture. Moore said that Flight No. 4, did fly but that it was launched at 2 or 3 in the morning. He made the change because a weather front moved through Alamogordo about 6 in the morning, and that change would have taken the balloons in a direction different from that needed to get it to the Brazel ranch. And, Crary's diary mentioned they launched a cluster of balloons later that day. The make up of these clusters was published in various documents.<br /><br />Finally, you quote from the Roswell Daily Record interview with Brazel that talked about the make up of the material brought into the office, but forget to mention the quote attributed to Brazel in which he said that he had found weather observation devices on other occasions but this was nothing like that... but had it been anything launched from Alamogordo at the time, it would have been exactly like that.<br /><br />I do not wish to get into another long, drawn out discussion on this. My position, and the counter arguments to Mogul are laid out here (just type Mogul into the search engine) and in the book Roswell in the 21st Century.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-65114721338486646932020-12-30T14:45:44.432-08:002020-12-30T14:45:44.432-08:00Why do you wrote that there are no Hints to Roswel...Why do you wrote that there are no Hints to Roswell, the Plains of San Augustin and Barney Barnett? You know that Gerald Anderson, his Brother, Uncle and so were on the Plains Crashsite and they saw the crashed Spaceship, the Aliens and Barney Barnett.Lemurianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08338438795316306579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-16996158673854376082020-12-30T08:09:52.041-08:002020-12-30T08:09:52.041-08:00It's explained what I believed happened in my ...It's explained what I believed happened in my thread here:<br />http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1177739/pg1 <br /><br />Throughout Mogul, service/research/test flights were being launched out of Alamogordo in between full Mogul arrays. This was not a fully developed program and testing was still going by Charles Moore and others when taken to Alamogordo. If you want to use anything out of Albert Crary's journal entry, you can see that's only more support that fully equipped Mogul arrays were not the only thing being launched. This broadens the opportunity for something else crashing, something Earthly and unincredible. Something made up of the EXACT debris found by Mac Brazel- Foil, sticks, rubber, paper. Balloons and radar targets.<br /><br />E8https://www.blogger.com/profile/06520302927574249663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-9787652307807638542020-12-29T18:40:45.133-08:002020-12-29T18:40:45.133-08:00Is there anywhere that all 7 pages Saunders highli...Is there anywhere that all 7 pages Saunders highlighted in the book can be seen?<br /><br />Is there anywhere that the Marcel Journal is hosted, so amateur codebreakers can have a look at all the block text, as it was written?Robert Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01827256040963104534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-432050182001043672020-12-28T13:10:08.007-08:002020-12-28T13:10:08.007-08:00Wow, I'm really intrigued. I would love more ...Wow, I'm really intrigued. I would love more info on the Patrick Saunders and memo issues you raised. Hopefully you can give us updates on what you learn about these issues in the near future. <br /><br />As far as Calvin Parker is concerned, I just do not believe that Marcel told him he hid alien debris in a water heater or anywhere else. Also, as 09rja said its extremely doubtful the same water heater would have been in the house all this time. Furthermore, it may have been a crime to use false pretenses to gain entry into the house to take property as was apparently attempted. Louis Nicholsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504089634070585120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-47356570751228145682020-12-28T10:29:16.070-08:002020-12-28T10:29:16.070-08:00A big notion of the episode was that Marcel Sr. he...A big notion of the episode was that Marcel Sr. held something back in the interviews he gave back in the late 70's & 80's. I find that to be unlikely. He (for example) admitted to <i>In Search of...</i> in 1980 that what he found was "not anything from this Earth". So isn't the cat out of the bag at that point?<br /><br />They missed a chance for some real comedy. When they went to Marcel's old house in Louisiana....I would have paid some real money to see them say to the current owner: <i>Hi! We are here from the History Channel....and we want to tear apart your water heaters to find some fragments of an alien spacecraft that a previous owner may have left in them. Ok?</i> <br /><br />The look would have been priceless. Of course, I think it's safe to say: I doubt the house has the same water heaters. Longest I've ever had one last on me is about 20 years. (Even the older ones didn't last forever. Seems like the older the appliance is....the longer it lasts.) 09rjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14354154308391968845noreply@blogger.com