tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post3501903694925063872..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: The Aztec Incident by Scott and Suzanne RamseyKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-6277390883699849782013-08-28T10:58:17.985-07:002013-08-28T10:58:17.985-07:00The concrete slab was no longer visible but Scott ...The concrete slab was no longer visible but Scott and an associate found the previously unknown slab at the suspected site by probing the soil. <a href="" rel="nofollow"> incident management </a>Safdar Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00270407097996992545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-73633710529250554402012-06-09T09:06:59.036-07:002012-06-09T09:06:59.036-07:00There is good evidence that Scott Ramsey does not ...There is good evidence that Scott Ramsey does not use good practices in his "research" even when compared to the generally low standard amongst UFO writers.<br /><br />In 2005, Paul Kimball eloquently and thoroughly demolished one of the main witnesses, Fred Reed.<br /><br />http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2005/03/fred-reed-aztec-red-flag.html<br /><br />Reed was shown to have earlier told other elaborate and contradicting stories about Aztec. Disturbingly, I am told that Ramsey doesn't address this AT ALL in his new book. This shows him to be more of zealot, ignoring evidence that doesn't suit his premise.<br /><br />That reminds me a lot of the Roswell myth.<br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-32800671962274437062012-06-07T12:05:46.117-07:002012-06-07T12:05:46.117-07:00"One thing that caught my eye looking through..."One thing that caught my eye looking through the Ramsey's witnesses were the unnamed Roswell intelligence officer ("George") who said he was never at the crash site, but was involved in covering it up by falsifying the records of people who were there, making it seem like they were somewhere else at the time."<br /><br />So we have an unnamed Roswell intelligence officer who was at the Aztec site but who claimed he was not. And he also falsified the records of those who were at Aztec to say they were not. Is it possible that this guy's own records were falsified to show he was not at Aztec when he was actually there, or vice-versa? <br /><br />So presumably those at Roswell who disclaim any knowledge of the Brazel ranch crash site (and other sites) were actually there but had their records falsified to show they were somewhere else. <br /><br />The converse is that those few (Marcel, Cavitt, Rickett & maybe others) who DID claim to have been at the Brazel ranch had their records falsified to show they were there, when in fact they were somewhere else. <br /><br />This was all done deliberately to confuse future investigators as to who really was there and who was not. <br /><br />Marcel's military records already have one serious omission (suggesting falsification by someone) as there is no mention in them that he ever took part in the recovery of an ET craft.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-48458343110997315762012-06-07T08:44:03.119-07:002012-06-07T08:44:03.119-07:00@David Rudiak: you said, above, that the intellige...@David Rudiak: you said, above, that the intelligence officer led Scott Ramsey to the slab. Who did if he wasn't there?starmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09884942748644499035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-55475272838970765862012-06-06T19:50:50.682-07:002012-06-06T19:50:50.682-07:00Don wrote:
The other issue in the link David poste...Don wrote:<br /><i>The other issue in the link David posted concerned tree damage. Usually tree damage in such places is due to lightning. I'd want to eliminate that before considering other possibilities.</i><br /><br />You would want to check age and growth patterns of trees immediately adjacent to the suspected crash area vs. trees somewhat removed from the area (for controls). Also, one of Scott Ramsey's military witnesses, who said they cleaned up crash areas to make them look like nothing happened there, said they replanted some trees from elsewhere to replace trees that had been destroyed. That might show up in a tree survey as well.<br /><br />One thing that caught my eye looking through the Ramsey's witnesses were the unnamed Roswell intelligence officer ("George") who said he was never at the crash site, but was involved in covering it up by falsifying the records of people who were there, making it seem like they were somewhere else at the time.<br /><br />The workers and test pilots at Area 51 in Annie Jacobson's book also said the same thing. They couldn't prove their work histories there with documents because they were all falsified. E.g., their paychecks would be with a company like Boeing even though they worked for the CIA. The test pilots had falsified flight records saying they were flying an ordinary aircraft at some other base at the same time, rather than some secret spy plane at Area 51.<br /><br />Unfortunately, documents, like statistics, can be made to mislead, not help us verify or disprove claims. They don't call counterintelligence a hall of mirrors for nothing.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-14413913975820010752012-06-06T05:51:57.327-07:002012-06-06T05:51:57.327-07:00We have a new Aztec book. We also hear of 'bl...We have a new Aztec book. We also hear of 'blockbusting discoveries' to be revealed at MUFON conference.<br /><br />Any connection?cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-88828748018285131982012-06-06T04:46:22.064-07:002012-06-06T04:46:22.064-07:00Who was "the Roswell intelligent officer"...Who was "the Roswell intelligent officer" who led Scott Ramsey to the slab? Has his background been checked?starmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09884942748644499035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-46177222229966154372012-06-05T19:41:56.983-07:002012-06-05T19:41:56.983-07:00Heh. Managed to get turned around on Google Earth,...Heh. Managed to get turned around on Google Earth, David. NE from Aztec it is.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />DonDonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01987893108986661582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-29457227995797775692012-06-05T18:46:08.888-07:002012-06-05T18:46:08.888-07:00Names of geologic layers are still not standardize...Names of geologic layers are still not standardized, and I've been matching the New Mexico Aztec region with the Utah layers I'm familiar with.<br /><br />I don't think there is any compelling reason for someone to have bored into the mesas for gas exploration.<br /><br />The other issue in the link David posted concerned tree damage. Usually tree damage in such places is due to lightning. I'd want to eliminate that before considering other possibilities.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />DonDonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01987893108986661582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-64673550255847717802012-06-05T16:52:53.467-07:002012-06-05T16:52:53.467-07:00David wrote: "If you have Google Earth, the H...David wrote: "If you have Google Earth, the Hart Canyon turnoff to the "crash site" is about 5 miles NE of Aztec and the site is supposed to be about another 6 miles up Hart Canyon Road."<br /><br />I may be confused because I found myself NW, rather than NE of Aztec on a road parallel and to the west of, more or less, route 550, in the middle of a grid of wells, I think.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />DonDonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01987893108986661582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-77830629712137607402012-06-05T15:13:32.580-07:002012-06-05T15:13:32.580-07:00Don,
If you have Google Earth, the Hart Canyon tu...Don,<br /><br />If you have Google Earth, the Hart Canyon turnoff to the "crash site" is about 5 miles NE of Aztec and the site is supposed to be about another 6 miles up Hart Canyon Road.<br /><br />If you zoom out, you will see a gridwork of maybe several thousand natural gas wells in the area (and no, I didn't sit there and count them all, just guesstimating). I don't know the full history, but there weren't nearly this many gas wells back in the 1940s. Real boom times in gas exploration have been much more recent. <br /><br />If you Google Earth up Hart Canyon road, you will see many short side roads off the main canyon road leading to gas wells. The "crash site" is on a bluff overlooking the canyon, but you'll notice as long as the main road doesn't go up and onto the bigger mesa, the gas wells all seem to remain down in the flats of the canyon near the main canyon road. <br /><br />The point is, it doesn't make sense to carve a road up onto the top of a mesa overlooking the canyon if you could do a well right off the main road. In fact, there is such a gas complex immediately below the bluff where the Ramsey's think the "crash site" is.<br /><br />This argument obviously doesn't preclude the possibility of a gas well be drilled on top of the mesa directly above the other one that is down in the canyon, but at first sight it doesn't make a lot of sense to do that when you have easier access and less drilling to do below.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-62403790032323293302012-06-04T17:36:51.242-07:002012-06-04T17:36:51.242-07:00Thanks, David. If I'd been there I'd have ...Thanks, David. If I'd been there I'd have agreed with Pflock not to drill. The hole was drilled on the edge rather than in the center of the slab, which might be an expression of caution.<br /><br />Since it is in a gas drilling area, I would ask an engineer in the discipline to examine the stratigraphy of the mesa to determine if it was a likely spot to have drilled a test, based on the practice at the time. <br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />DonDonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01987893108986661582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-52492673520130074722012-06-04T13:13:15.876-07:002012-06-04T13:13:15.876-07:00Don wrote:
I don't know anything about this ma...Don wrote:<br /><i>I don't know anything about this matter, but I have come across the remains of mining operations out in the high desert, one atop a mesa. It appears they were using gravity to sluice out copper (I think). At the bottom of the mesa were several large concrete "bins". These were small operations, not big corporate sites.</i><br /><br />Don, try here for starters, photos of site, area, and concrete slab.<br /><br />http://www.jaybarrymore.com/Pages/AztecCrash.aspx<br /><br />There is no evidence of any mining operation there that I remember or was told of.<br /><br />Below the mesa along the main road are various natural gas wells.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-11368983761441881362012-06-04T12:14:25.464-07:002012-06-04T12:14:25.464-07:00David wrote "...which leaves the question, wh...David wrote "...which leaves the question, what is a heavily reinforced concrete slab doing all by itself on top of a mesa..."<br /><br />I don't know anything about this matter, but I have come across the remains of mining operations out in the high desert, one atop a mesa. It appears they were using gravity to sluice out copper (I think). At the bottom of the mesa were several large concrete "bins". These were small operations, not big corporate sites.<br /><br />Are there photos of the slabs online?<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />DonDonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01987893108986661582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-36173404757164565772012-06-04T09:49:36.921-07:002012-06-04T09:49:36.921-07:00Regarding the possibly identity of "Kurt Pete...Regarding the possibly identity of "Kurt Peters", Kevin wrote:<br /><i>Oh, I see who you mean be KK... I usually ignore her.</i><br /><br />I think we are discussing the same person now.<br /><br /><i>As I mentioned, I spoke to Scott just a few days (a week or more) ago, and according to him, the analysis has not been conducted. I wonder if he meant only the analysis of the concrete had not been conducted. But then, you'd have thought he would have mentioned the other analysis.<br /><br />Rather than try to figure this out, I'll shoot him an email to learn where we stand on this.</i><br /><br />Well, I was going from memory here from over 6 decades--I mean 6 years ago when Scott Ramsey took us out to the site when I was at the Aztec Conference. I thought he said they had dated the rebar to 1948.<br /><br />I just did some Googling and found a Dec. 2005 UfoChronicles article by Scott where he mentions digging out a chunk of concrete and rebar in 2002 that they had since sent to undisclosed concrete experts for analysis, but not the results of such analysis.<br /><br />In a 2007 interview with Dennis Balthauser he states the rebar was from the 1940s, but not specifically 1948.<br /><br />So my ancient memory of a specific 1948 dating could be wrong. (Though I remember being quite surprised that rebar could be dated when Scott told me about this technique.) <br /><br />But the story of Scott being led to the then unknown and hidden concrete slab by a Roswell intelligent officer who said he was involved in the recovery I think is still extremely interesting and worthy of serious consideration.<br /><br />I know Karl Pflock thought it was a plug for an old natural gas well. I remember Scott telling us that Pflock thought they were crazy to drill into the thing, fearing an explosion.<br /><br />I think the idea that it might be such a well plug has since been discredited, which leaves the question, what is a heavily reinforced concrete slab doing all by itself on top of a mesa, only discovered because a witness saying he was involved led them to it, also giving them information about the newly-cut dirt road leading up to the mesa top (which is still there)?<br /><br />It may also be possible to date the road from geological survey maps or photos. I don't know if this has been done.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-77051358581829792872012-06-04T09:03:40.374-07:002012-06-04T09:03:40.374-07:00David -
Oh, I see who you mean be KK... I usually...David -<br /><br />Oh, I see who you mean be KK... I usually ignore her.<br /><br />As I mentioned, I spoke to Scott just a few days (a week or more) ago, and according to him, the analysis has not been conducted. I wonder if he meant only the analysis of the concrete had not been conducted. But then, you'd have thought he would have mentioned the other analysis. <br /><br />Rather than try to figure this out, I'll shoot him an email to learn where we stand on this.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-78961036862899085942012-06-03T15:00:10.763-07:002012-06-03T15:00:10.763-07:00Kevin wrote:
"And I don't believe Kurt Pe...Kevin wrote:<br />"And I don't believe Kurt Peters is one whose initials are KK because the Peters postings are not written in the same over the top style with capitalizations running rampant."<br /><br />Kevin, the "KK" I had in mind is female and not "KKK", who I think you are referring to.<br /><br />"I have talked to Scott on the phone and emailed him, and according to what he told me, the analysis of the slab material has yet to be completed."<br /><br />They may be running other tests on the slab now, but when I was there in 2005 I seem to remember Scott telling me the rebar dated to 1948.<br /><br />There may be another way to date the site (tree rings) and see if anything unusual happened in 1948. The same technique was applied to the 1965 Kecksburg "crash site" where witnesses said the object was found. This showed decreased tree growth in 1965 at the site.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-37412858494280483842012-06-03T13:11:14.732-07:002012-06-03T13:11:14.732-07:00David -
I have talked to Scott on the phone and e...David -<br /><br />I have talked to Scott on the phone and emailed him, and according to what he told me, the analysis of the slab material has yet to be completed. <br /><br />All others -<br /><br />This was a review of Scott and Suzanne Ramsey's book about Aztec... and once again, you all have moved far afield.<br /><br />I will note that some of this is my fault. I had a book due to the publisher on June 1 and was busy attempting to complete that.<br /><br />So, this is about Aztec and not about James Carrion or any of those other things...<br /><br />And I don't believe Kurt Peters is one whose initials are KK because the Peters postings are not written in the same over the top style with capitalizations running rampant.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-39456652902678770822012-06-03T10:30:57.511-07:002012-06-03T10:30:57.511-07:00The person I marvel at is General Vandenberg. Afte...The person I marvel at is General Vandenberg. After the huge Roswell hysteria, which in view of the many conferences, reports, analyses by scientific consultants and of course the need for the utmost secrecy throughout (not one iota to appear in his daily logs or diaries), no sooner does the hysteria begin to recede than Aztec lands on his lap, with the ghastly process being repeated throughout most of 1948, and then being followed by the "Estimate of the Situation" (whose contents he naturally has to deny & reject to protect the great secret).<br /><br />What dedication to the cause! Some guy. I certainly would not have wanted to stand in his shoes.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-91590346711004070462012-06-03T05:31:16.372-07:002012-06-03T05:31:16.372-07:00"I haven't had an opportunity to get the ..."I haven't had an opportunity to get the book and read it yet."<br /><br />I just began reading the pdf online. :) I see Stan wrote the forward. Yeah the slab is intriguing; I heard about it some time ago.starmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09884942748644499035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-57947866547027598452012-06-02T21:19:47.224-07:002012-06-02T21:19:47.224-07:00Getting back to the real subject of Kevin's bl...Getting back to the real subject of Kevin's blog, Aztec, I haven't had an opportunity to get the book and read it yet.<br /><br />The most interesting part of Scott Ramsey's research, as I recall, is the witness who said he was from Roswell base and told him about the concrete slab at the crash site used to support the crane used to remove the craft.<br /><br />The concrete slab was no longer visible but Scott and an associate found the previously unknown slab at the suspected site by probing the soil. One clue to the location of the site was a road off the main road up onto the mesa that the witness said was created to get equipment up to the site.<br /><br />In addition, it turns out the slab could be dated through the rebar in it, something I had never heard of before. (The lab test was one of the major expenses that Scott had to pay out of his own pocket.) It dated to 1948! What a coincidence.<br /><br />While this doesn't prove a flying saucer crashed there, I find this pretty damn interesting. We have physical evidence that dates to the right time and was found only because a witness saying he was associated with the crash recovery pointed them in the right direction.<br /><br />Other experts hired by Scott Ramsey have told him there was no good reason for the slab to be there. Although it is a gas field area and old gas wells are plugged with concrete, there was no gas well at the top of the mesa. The concrete slab is totally out of place.<br /><br />So I'm not so quick to dismiss the Aztec crash. There is some good circumstantial evidence that indicates something unusual did happen there in 1948.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-86570007656890970112012-06-02T16:04:09.493-07:002012-06-02T16:04:09.493-07:00"TheNurse" wrote:
"I don't thin..."TheNurse" wrote:<br />"I don't think that Aztec is anything more than a pocket-change-making distraction."<br /><br />Oh great, another anonymous poster making the usual inane comment that people are only in it for the money.<br /><br />Scott and Suzanne Ramsey are both straight-arrows, have spent thousands of hours and several hundred thousand dollars of their own money (Scott over 25 years) chasing down leads, doing lab analyses, and hiring experts. They just did a 1100 copy self-published run of their book. Unless they manage to sell all of them for several hundred dollars a copy, they are getting a rather poor return on investment. Scott better keep his day job.<br /><br />William Steinem and Wendell Stevens in the 1980s did a 500 book run and couldn't sell those.<br /><br />The Aztec UFO Conference is a low-key affair, not nearly as well-known or attended as the Roswell UFO Conference. I've been there once as a speaker, it is attended mostly by interested locals, is run by very nice and sincere people (who feed you in their own homes), and has trouble making expenses, such as putting us up in a local motel and paying our travel expenses.<br /><br />Perhaps TheNurse can inform us of who is making all that money off of Aztec.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-40969939495125494062012-06-02T13:17:17.600-07:002012-06-02T13:17:17.600-07:00Based on hostile tone of posts, lack of even most ...Based on hostile tone of posts, lack of even most rudimentary knowledge, such as Jacques Vallee being French, referring in various places to "himself" instead being "a girl" ("...as a young girl I was taught never to be rude, Dave"; "but then, a girl can be forgiven her mistakes..."), I would place my bets that "Kurt Peters" is a certain K.K. in drag. <br /><br />But I've been wrong before in my guesses about identities, as Lance will attest.David Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-33607786819103147362012-06-02T11:55:51.370-07:002012-06-02T11:55:51.370-07:00Since Lance is conspicuously absent from comments ...Since Lance is conspicuously absent from comments in the last couple of posts, I wonder if he has gone anonymous as the new Kurt Peters.. probably not, but where is he?Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06589945219232109929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-3233415863400056632012-06-02T10:02:13.281-07:002012-06-02T10:02:13.281-07:00I don't think that Aztec is anything more than...I don't think that Aztec is anything more than a pocket-change-making distraction.TheNursehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02468737357147525558noreply@blogger.com