tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post3699491001337989661..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: UFOs, the Ramey Memo, J. Bond Johnson and MeKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-28838811401064410732009-10-13T01:51:00.388-07:002009-10-13T01:51:00.388-07:00Regarding whether there was only one balloon in th...Regarding whether there was only one balloon in the Ft Worth photos, why does this matter ? Nobody has ever claimed that ALL the debris recovered from the ranch is on display in that room, and we can say with reasonable certainty that it was not. A lot of it was probably still in containers elsewhere, maybe still on the B-29. So the number of balloons in those photos is really immaterial. <br /><br />I am still keen to know how, if everything was supposed to be top secret, the press and J.Bond Johnson were ever allowed to come to the base and take photos at all. Especially when Ramey could easily have told the press that the stuff was going direct from Roswell to Washington. Can David Rudiak or Kevin Randle please provide a credible answer to this? i.e. one that does NOT involve hurriedly prepared plans to substitute a torn up balloon to replace the actual debris. <br /><br />And yes I agree with Lance that it is far more likely that the press phoned the engineer seeking information than that the engineer contacted the press (in the New Jersey case)<br /><br />As to whether the Ramey memo is a military document, I repeat that if it had any real significance it would have been preserved and been available to the GAO in 1995. My conclusion, therefore, is that it had, and has, no value to science or the discovery of ETs. It was a piece of trivia, nothing else.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-43568100034994820172009-10-12T18:44:22.477-07:002009-10-12T18:44:22.477-07:00And you might want to look up Ad Hominem? I showed...And you might want to look up Ad Hominem? I showed clearly in a simple example how you work.<br /><br />It's hard to refute what just amounts to an opinion or a guess as to the motives of someone so I certainly don't bother with that. And that is all your post really was.<br /><br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-41095237592947935572009-10-12T18:39:31.764-07:002009-10-12T18:39:31.764-07:00My entire post referred your site not your post--I...My entire post referred your site not your post--I went there to check on what evidence you had (you had the link at the end of your post) and immediately I saw the things I wrote about.<br /><br />And the one thing I brought up is by no means the only instance of this kind of "research."<br /><br />I notice that you don't bother to address the specifics of the one point I brought up. This is the classic tactic of a believer--never let them pin you down. Always talk about something else.<br /><br />I try to stick to points that are easy to definitively prove or disprove instead of prattling on with just opinions.<br /><br />So let me put it more bluntly:<br /><br />How do you know, David Rudiak, that Delbert Deisinger went to the paper in 1947 to spread the debunking story?<br /><br />I contend that you DONT and that you MADE THAT UP. <br /><br />Simple enough, no?<br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-27599407208058201952009-10-12T18:13:32.590-07:002009-10-12T18:13:32.590-07:00Lance asked Kevin Randle the question, is there an...Lance asked Kevin Randle the question, is there anything there in the Fort Worth Ramey photos that indicated that this wasn't from a Mogul? Kevin wrote up a list, and I added to it (not even alluding to Lance in any way). <br /><br />Without addressing the points I was making (probably because he can't), he instead changed the subject and launched into his customary ad hominem rants.<br /><br />Let's examine one of his truly pathetic objections about how supposedly "slimy" I am in my writing:<br /><br /><i>There is certainly no lack of weaselly qualifiers like "probably" in his text</i><br /><br />Here's where I used the offensive "probably":<br /><br />"Computer analysis also suggests that it probably is only one balloon there. The volume of the material would fit in a shoe box."<br /><br />Why did I use "probably"? Because the balloon material is in a single heap in the photos. I don't have X-ray vision or time-travel capability to disentangle the heap to know with certainty that there is only one balloon there. Perhaps there are two or three or more small balloons there. If it's a Mogul, you would expect more than one balloon to be picked up. So how can one attack this problem? <br /><br />When I did my 3D computer reconstruction of Ramey's office and the material there, it is possible to approximate the shape of the balloon heap (I used an ovoid) and match the dimensions, then calculate the approximate volume. (This is called actual scientific analysis. Maybe Lance should try it sometime instead of just flapping his arms and blowing smoke.)<br /><br />From this I determined that that the total volume of the balloon material would indeed fit inside a shoe box. (Probably I'm also being "weaselly" and "disingenuous" because I don't specify the size of the shoe box.)<br /><br />Thus not much there, and could indeed <i>probably</i> be accounted for by only one weather balloon, just as Ramey was maintaining. <br /><br />Point: What happened to all the other weather balloons from the supposed crashed Mogul? Point, of course, deliberately ignored by Lance (just like my other 15 points).<br /><br />Use of "probably" or "approximately" is in no way being "disingenuous" or resorting to "weasel" words. Qualifiers like that are used all the time, including science journals, indicating a lack of absolute certainty, though available evidence would strongly point in that direction. Big frigging deal!<br /><br />David RudiakDavid Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-44879302646510697192009-10-12T17:34:18.658-07:002009-10-12T17:34:18.658-07:00Oh no...I mespelled nastiness.Oh no...I mespelled nastiness.Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-5249418037449783252009-10-12T17:33:40.223-07:002009-10-12T17:33:40.223-07:00OMG...Lance...why do you, and others, feel the nee...OMG...Lance...why do you, and others, feel the need to resort to completely unnecessary nastyness to get your point across?<br /><br />David Rudiak was showing the series of stories dealing with Weather Balloons, and Rawin targets following July 8th, because of their possible connection to explaining away the "saucers"...big deal!!Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-28684201395581664702009-10-12T16:39:14.035-07:002009-10-12T16:39:14.035-07:00I went over to Rudiak's site and was immediate...I went over to Rudiak's site and was immediately struck by how disingenuous his presentation really is.<br /><br />There is certainly no lack of weaselly qualifiers like "probably" in his text (It was Rudiak who claimed on this blog--using his well honed researching skills, no doubt, that I was "almost certainly" someone whom I decidedly am not). "Almost certainly" for Rudiak is not something you might want to put down any money on.<br /><br />It is amazing to see how he conjures mystery out of of thin air. In the few cases I took a cursory look at, I quickly became convinced that virtually nothing that Rudiak says can be taken at face value. It is all tainted and colored by a laughable bias and really deserves only derision.<br /><br />How about an example?<br /><br />Take a look at this 1947 story from New Jersey:<br /><br />http://www.roswellproof.com/Asbury_Park_July13.html<br /><br />This is one of the many press items Rudiak presents in a silly effort to show a huge debunking effort by the military was in the works. In Rudiak's world nothing the military does can be anything but malevolent. They can't explain anything, they can only cover up.<br /><br />Here is what Rudiak says about this story:<br /><br />==<br />"Further south in Asbury Park, N.J., only a few miles from the home of the Mogul Project, an engineer, who said he was affiliated with the local Army signal laboratory, contacted the newspaper and told a similar story. The flying saucer reports might be explained by the radar targets and radiosondes developed before the war at nearby Ft. Monmouth. Photos of both types of weather balloons accompanied the article. As in the Atlanta demo, a claim was made that the radar targets were widely used, and that many were constantly "used in the areas where flying discs have been reported." <br /><br />Once again, the similarity of wording is suspicious, and raises questions as to whether this individual was truly acting on his own initiative in going to the press."<br />==<br /><br />If you read the story I defy you to explain how Ruduak could possibly KNOW that the scientist contacted the paper instead of the other way around?<br /><br />Rudiak, says Delbert Deisinger "said he was affiliated with the local Army signal laboratory" Well, did he say it because that was where he worked? Jesus!<br /><br />In just a few sentences, Rudiak managed to slimily imply mystery when there is none.<br /><br />Perhaps all this comes from the same place as his other assertions?<br /><br />That would certainly explain the smell.<br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-20280213912643192972009-10-12T13:47:40.957-07:002009-10-12T13:47:40.957-07:00About the conjecture that Bond Johnson was handed ...About the conjecture that Bond Johnson was handed the latest AP news flash that had Ramey in the picture, prompting Johnson to be dispatched to FWAAF to see Ramey and take pictures, where he supposedly handed the news flash to Ramey, becoming the "Ramey memo": Ain't possible for a number of reasons.<br /><br />1)AP first mentioned Ramey's involvement shortly before 5:00 p.m. Fort Worth CST, or about 1-1/2 hours after the first AP wire with the Roswell base press release. But the Ramey memo clearly uses "weather balloons", and AP didn't mention anything about the object being a weather balloon under around 6:30 p.m. (after weather officer Newton had officially IDed the debris as a weather balloon). Unless you invoke another time travel theory, "weather balloon" could not make it into an AP bulletin 1-1/2 hours earlier.<br />2) The plural "weather balloons" was not used in any news bulletin or story, AP or otherwise, on July 8. The plural use didn't appear until the next day, and then NOT in relation to what was found, but a statement that the weather services sent up hundreds of "weather balloons" every day.<br />3) As I went over in detail in my rebuttal to Barry Greenwood, words, phrasing, and letter counts found in the Ramey memo do not remotely match any known Roswell news bulletin or story, of which a large body has been compiled.<br /><br />This is a military telegram about Roswell. End of story. If you are a debunker, you can remain somewhat logically consistent and continue to insist nothing of importance happened at Roswell, therefore there is nothing of importance in the Ramey memo. (But see problems with this line of logic below.) <br /><br />But if you are a strong Roswell advocate, you cannot be logically consistent and claim this is military telegram about Roswell, yet there is nothing of importance in it or it isn't classified. You can't have it both ways.<br /><br />Incidentally, Ramey when talking to the newspapers earlier on, was himself stating, among other things, that he hadn't let anyone else see or photograph the "disc" yet, because it was "high level stuff", in other words, highly classified. Other newspapers, such as the Washington Post, mentioned a "security lid" being placed on it by the Pentagon.<br /><br />At the time the photo of the Ramey memo was taken, weather officer Irving Newton had yet to officially ID the debris as a humble weather balloon/radar target yet. So any security would still be in place. (Ramey would also have to clear lifting security with the Pentagon, I would presume.)<br /><br />And then you have the conundrum of the FBI telegram sent out at 6:15 p.m. CST (45' to an hour after Ramey memo photographed) stating that the debris was still being flown on to Wright Field for still further analysis, even though presumably a humble balloon/target (although publicly it was announced the flight was canceled). No need to do that, unless there was still doubt about identity (which Wright Field, according to FBI, expressed in phone conversations). So security, would still be in place.<br /><br />A military memo about Roswell at this stage would be classified no matter how you slice it.<br /><br />David RudiakDavid Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-23380638873192563262009-10-12T13:18:17.615-07:002009-10-12T13:18:17.615-07:00Kevin:
I concede that a B-29 would not need a refu...Kevin:<br />I concede that a B-29 would not need a refuelling stop at Ft Worth, but this does not materially affect my synopsis. We may assume that Blanchard & Ramey discussed the flying disc by phone (maybe several times) before the stuff arrived at Ft Worth. We may also assume that Haut's press release was on Blanchard's orders, but once it went out Ramey demanded the debris was flown to Ft Worth for his staff to have a good look. It is also quite possible that the phrase "higher HQ" meant Fort Worth not Washington. <br /><br />Anyway, the debris was flown to Ft Worth. You say Ramey was apparently telling the press it was a balloon before the stuff arrived. I do not believe it for a moment. And no, I do not believe Johnson was photographing anything at Ft Worth before the debris got there. What on earth gave you this idea? It is preposterous. It is entirely possible that Blanchard told Ramey by phone that the 'flying disc' resembled a balloon but there was sufficient doubt for it to be forwarded to Ramey's command. So, yes, Ramey might have surmised that it was a balloon, and even a radar target, before it arrived. But he would never have dared say anything definite until he had seen it! <br /><br />The point is surely this: if indeed it was some 'top secret' debris (American or suspect Russian or even suspect ET) then Ramey could easily have told all press enquirers that yes, the debris was on its way to Washington and that no, nobody could, or need, come to Ft Worth to take photos. Instead he allows the press to come and take photos. Some secret! The only reasonable conclusion I draw is that Ramey wanted a bit of base publicity and what better way to get it than publicise a flying disc in his possession. <br /><br />I repeat: no secrets, no ersatz balloon substitution (no need for such), no cover story, nothing but a simple 'flying disc' tale that got a bit out of hand in '47 and got magnified a thousand-fold 32 years later.<br /><br />We do not know what Marcel told his chums in the intervening years. He may have dropped hints, got laughed at, then kept quiet until Stan Friedman met him. After a short session with STF, Marcel would have been ready to believe almost anything about ETs visiting earth! If he ever seriously believed, between 1947 and 1979, that he saw an ET craft, he had ample opportunity to relate his experience to the numerous UFO organisations extant during this period. He never did. That alone speaks volumes. Nor was he bound by any secrecy oath. Had this been the case, he would hardly have opened his mouth to his chums or the TV station announcer (or manager).<br /><br />Marcel's initial confusion over being photographed with the real stuff then substituted stuff was because he was only shown the cropped (by 75%) photos in the Moore-Berlitz book, which showed different looking debris, simply got confused and could not remember. By the time the full photos were published (credit due mainly to you) showing all the photos showed the same debris, Marcel was dead.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-53865773671325547402009-10-12T11:36:24.852-07:002009-10-12T11:36:24.852-07:0012) A singular balloon and target would add up to ...12) A singular balloon and target would add up to less than 2 pounds of material. Mack Brazel said his 2 rolled bundles of foil & sticks and rubber "strips" added up to about 5 pounds. (And where are Brazel’s rubber "strips" in the photos, BTW? It’s just a singular, intact rubber balloon.)<br />13) Marcel in Fort Worth was quoted (AP) as saying debris was scattered over a "square mile". How do you scatter the debris in the photo over a square mile? Not even a complete Mogul would remotely create debris over such a wide area. And note Marcel's "square mile" conflicts directly with Brazel's "200 yards across" description, and Sheridan Cavitt's present-day "no bigger than my living room", or 20 feet across.<br />14) Ramey in 1947 was quoted in 1947 (within about an hour of the press release) saying the disc in his office was 25 feet across if reconstructed! Marcel hadn't even gotten there yet. Where did Ramey get that description? (A real radar target is only 4 feet across.) The 20-25 foot description was repeated by Pentagon sources in other stories (referring to the foil "box-kite"). Later this was amended to the "balloon" being this size, such as in FBI telegram. (Yet another change of story)<br />15) Stories also have Ramey and his men early on declaring the disc was "hexagonal" in shape (also that his men supposedly didn't know what it was). Where did he get that shape description? An intact, fully assembled RAWIN target would have that profile, but only if viewed from directly above or below. Only an expert would know this. But all Ramey had was a torn up, non-assembled target, which supposedly hadn’t been IDed yet. There is no possible way to get that shape description unless somebody provides it for you. (Especially since they were also saying that nobody knew what it was.) In other words, this was all scripted. (BTW, weather officer Newton came in only later and used the shape description “like a six-pointed star”, not “hexagonal”, so the “hexagonal” didn’t come from him.)<br />16) The official debunking line is that it had to be from Mogul because only Mogul used the targets. But the historical reality, documented from newspapers, is that the targets were already in fairly widespread use by both Army and civilian weather services. Thus the radar target in the photo could have come from anywhere (as Irving Newton noted). A debunking demonstration utilizing a target was carried out out FWAAF only a day and half later, part of a nationwide campaign of such debunking demonstrations. The military repeatedly made the point that the targets were in widespread use and explained both Roswell and the nationwide reports of flying discs. Documentation and links at: www.roswellproof.com/militarydebunk.html<br /><br />David RudiakDavid Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-35911725444060467302009-10-12T11:35:34.375-07:002009-10-12T11:35:34.375-07:00Here are some more reasons why the material in Ram...Here are some more reasons why the material in Ramey's office is unlikely to be from a Mogul balloon:<br />1) Not enough material. Ramey and his minions always stated it to be a singular balloon and radar target.<br />2) Irving Newton, weather officer, declared it a singular balloon and target in 1947 that could have come from any number of weather stations and maintains that position in the present.<br />3) The white paper backing of the radar target in the photos is perfectly clean--no dirt, no staining, etc. How can a radar target supposedly dragged through the dirt, subjected to morning dew and at least one rain storm be so pristine white?<br />4) The rubber balloon in the photo is also in too good a shape to have been a rubber neoprene balloon left out in the sun for a month. A real neoprene balloon turns brittle and deteriorates into black flakes within 2 to 3 weeks of sun exposure, as Charles Moore has demonstrated on occasion. Why is the FW balloon still so pliable and intact, if it really were from a Mogul? It is instead of the appearance of a balloon only a few days old, very recently recovered. (Hundreds of such weather balloons were sent up every day all over the country with many being recovered and turned into authorities. It wouldn’t be very hard to come up with only one.)<br />5) Bond Johnson’s EARLY testimony (before he became all squirrelly) mentioned noticing the acrid smell of the decaying balloon as soon as he walked into Ramey’s office. NOBODY who came in close contact with the Roswell debris prior to this (Marcel Sr. & Jr., Brazel, Cavitt, Wilcox, Proctor, Shirkey, etc.) mentioned any sort of odor associated with the recovered debris. Conclusion: No rotting balloons in the field, the base, or on the transport plane. Smelly balloon first appears in Fort Worth for photo session.<br />6) Computer analysis of the photos confirms it adds up to only one target, but with an interesting twist. Two or three extra bare sticks are also found. Proof of a Mogul? No, more proof that this is a pristine radar target. Two bare sticks were left out of each target so it could be folded down for shipping, usually 24 targets to a carton. The extra sticks needed for reassembly were thrown on top. It appears somebody pulled out a fresh target, grabbed a random number of the separate sticks and threw them into the mix.<br />7) Computer analysis also suggests that it probably is only one balloon there. The volume of the material would fit in a shoe box.<br />8) Ramey declared no other equipment was found with the balloon/target, yet a Mogul should have had all sorts of equipment found at the site: radiosonde, altitude control, batteries, etc., all attached to the balloons and targets with very tough twine, , string, fishing line. None of this stuff was unusual or classified in any way, so no reason to deny its existence.<br />9) Where did the twine, string, fishing line go? Absolutely none can be found anywhere in the photos, which have been scrutinized in great deal. There should have been hundreds of yards at the crash site. Nobody reported any, including Mack Brazel, who specifically denied presence of it. It should have been tangled up in the brush. It wasn't going anywhere.<br />10) The AF questioning Charles Moore asked him about the absence of reported twine, etc. Could it have disintegrated in the sun? Moore said no. The subject was then dropped like a hot potato and never brought up again by the Air Force in their report. The absence of twine, string, etc. is very telling, basically disproving the presence of a Mogul--the proverbial dog that didn't bark.<br />11) There is no Charles Moore’s Mogul “flower tape” to be seen anywhere in the FW photos, what is supposed to be the direct tie-in to Mogul. Yet it isn’t there. Did it too magically vanish?<br /><br />More next post.<br /><br />David RudiakDavid Rudiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10213284910238852377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-52994410178057255622009-10-12T10:48:00.090-07:002009-10-12T10:48:00.090-07:00Hi Kevin,
Just to be clear, I wasn't referrin...Hi Kevin,<br /><br />Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to your analysis of the debris in the photo (which I quite appreciate) as a rationalization. I thought is was very helpful and fact based. And unlike some of my usual skeptical banter, I honestly did not know the answer to the question when I asked it.<br /><br />I was referring to the way you treat the embarrassing fact that Marcel twice said the he was photographed with the "real" debris.<br /><br />I think it is reasonable for folks to dismiss Roswell right at that point, it is so devastating.Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-26859229144676321052009-10-12T08:57:37.986-07:002009-10-12T08:57:37.986-07:00Lance, CDA -
I hardly know where to begin. Lance,...Lance, CDA -<br /><br />I hardly know where to begin. Lance, you asked if there was anything in the picture to rule out Mogul. I said, “No.” But I also pointed out that there wasn’t much more there than a single balloon and single rawin reflector. You characterized that as a rationalization. I think of it as proper analysis.<br /><br />I did not mention in that answer that there was no flight no. 4, given what Dr. Albert Crary said. I did not mention that Charles Moore told me that if the flight was cancelled, they stripped the equipment from the balloons and released the balloons... meaning there would be no metallic debris to be found. I did not mention that the first successful flight in New Mexico was no. 5. That the records show there was no flight no. 4, and all we have is Charles Moore’s suggestion that there was and his convenient memory that he remembered the flight disappearing near Arabela, some 17 miles from the debris field. I did not mention that the name, Mogul, was known to the team members in New Mexico and that Crary references it in his diary. I did not mention that members of the Mogul team went to Roswell to enlist the aid of those there to track their balloons and that each flight was documented in the NOTAMs so that the flights were not secret. I did not mention that Mack Brazel was quoted as saying that he had found weather observation devices on two other occasions and that this was nothing like that, though had it been Mogul, it would have been exactly like that. I mentioned none of these reasons to reject Mogul because your question seemed to be simple. So, I now add these reasons to reject Mogul.<br /><br />CDA, do you just make up stuff that suits you or do you have some source of information? I ask this because you wrote that they had to stop to refuel the B-29 so they might as well have stopped in Fort Worth. The B-29 probably could have flown to Ohio round trip without refueling and certainly could fly there without. No refueling stop needed, so why presume one?<br /><br />Walter Haut did not release the information without permission and guidance from Colonel Blanchard, if for no other reason he would have known nothing about it until Blanchard told him. He said that he did not receive any sort of rebuke from the Pentagon, though there are newspaper articles that make that claim.<br /><br />I don’t know why you reject my time line since it is based on documentation available in newspapers of the time... so, we know that the teletype message reached Fort Worth at 3:26 p.m. Even if the editor had ripped it off the machine and handed it directly to Johnson, he couldn’t have reached the base until four and probably after... and Ramey was already telling other reporters, on the telephone, it was a balloon.<br /><br />Ramey had no need to call the press about any of this... they would have called him after reading the Roswell press release. It said the stuff was being moved to higher headquarters and the astute reporter could deduce this meant Fort Worth (8th Air Force) or to SAC in Washington. I will note here that the Air Materiel Command was not in the chain of command for Roswell. It was a different branch.<br /><br />Ramey was apparently telling people that it was a balloon before it arrived in Fort Worth... given the timing of the events... and if this is true, then the debris in his office was not what had been recovered near Roswell because it had yet to arrive. Maybe that’s why you don’t like the time line... if Johnson was photographing debris before Marcel could get there, then just what is in his office?<br /><br />You suggest Stan Friedman talked to Marcel and gently guided him to the story, even though it was the Marcel, talking with his HAM buddies who said that he had picked up pieces of a flying saucer. He was telling this story before Friedman ever spoke to him.<br /><br />And Lance, none of this means that there is anything in the picture to rule out Mogul, just a lot of other reasons to do so. Mogul simply does not explain all the facts that can be documented about this.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-86984637191092152272009-10-11T12:33:31.002-07:002009-10-11T12:33:31.002-07:00Something I found interesting in this article is t...Something I found interesting in this article is the mentioning of Mr. Johnson having been keeping up-to-date with the rash of sightings going on, at the time. It is further indication of how this case did not happen in a vacumn. It is one other reason certain aspects withi it are entertained, at all.Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-67502704704207007142009-10-11T03:04:54.125-07:002009-10-11T03:04:54.125-07:00cda: I don't think 1947 was a period of "...cda: I don't think 1947 was a period of "high anxiety when fear of Russia and its weapons was uppermost." The cold war had begun but Russia was still shattered by the second world war and it had yet to acquire nuclear weapons and the missiles to carry them. There was no crisis in July 1947. In any event, I don't believe fear of Russia would prevent Marcel from recognizing a balloon. Nor would he have made a special trip home to show the wreckage to his son if it was just ordinary stuff. Lastly, I believe the guy who informed Friedman about Marcel was a TV station manager not a radio announcer.starmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09884942748644499035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-42840584520693369272009-10-11T01:53:37.807-07:002009-10-11T01:53:37.807-07:00I should have added that the reason for all the do...I should have added that the reason for all the doubts about the nature of the debris was that it was a period of very high anxiety when fear of Russia and its weapons was uppermost. Hence the desire for the technical guys and higher brass to get their hands on it.<br /><br />There was no thought of ET debris at all - none. The person who sowed the seed of that idea is a certain Stanton T.Friedman, three decades later. Yes, he sought out Marcel, after word reached him about Marcel from a radio announcer in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-41831062383233845912009-10-10T17:53:06.665-07:002009-10-10T17:53:06.665-07:00CDA - NOTE: presented with due respect, in the spi...CDA - NOTE: presented with due respect, in the spirit of learning the truth only:<br /><br /><i>"...suspects the stuff to be mundane but it looks, and maybe feels, strange."</i><br /><br />To me this seems like reaching a bit. Why on earth would simple foil, and balsa wood seem, or feel strange to Marcel, or anyone else?<br /><br /><i>"Brazel probably thinks the same"</i> <br /><br />Brazel's sheep wouldn't go near the stuff, and he starts this whole chain reaction that puts many people out, in order to take care of the situation?...after he already suspects its just foil, and sticks?<br /><br /><i>"...puzzled by its fragmentary nature"</i><br /><br />Indeed, why is this material in such torn up condtion? Why is there such a large disagreement between differing accounts of the amount of debris?<br /><br /><i>"Haut, who never saw the stuff, prematurely issues his (in)famous press release and earns a later rebuke from Washington."</i><br /><br />I have a real problem believing he would be able to take it upon himself and commit such an act, without authorization. Also, I don't think there is any real evidence showing that he recieved a butt-kicking over it.<br /><br /><i>"Gen. Ramey, upon hearing of this, immediately orders the stuff to Fort Worth en route for Dayton, so his staff can have a good look."</i><br /><br />Ramey still orders stuff they all agree is a Rawin target and balloon to Dayton...for further study?<br /><br /><i>"Marcel wisely gives no opinion but Newton positively identifies the debris as a Rawin target plus balloon(s). Ramey then informs the local radio station."</i><br /><br />And, again, it travels on to, presumably Watson, at T-2, in Dayton?<br /><br /><i>"30+ years later Marcel, perhaps desiring publicity, having lived through 3 decades of UFO controversy, and knowing he had once handled 'UFO debris' spreads the word, which ultimately reaches ET zealot Stan Friedman's ears.</i><br /><br />Except we know it happened the other way around. Friedman found Marcel.Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-18030011624589614862009-10-10T14:52:02.131-07:002009-10-10T14:52:02.131-07:00To Lance & Bob Koford:
There is no certainty ...To Lance & Bob Koford:<br /><br />There is no certainty in any of this, but I submit the following as a reasonable synopsis:<br /><br />1. Marcel helps recover the debris, during which he suspects the stuff to be mundane but it looks, and maybe feels, strange. Brazel probably thinks the same. Both try to form a kite out of it (see "Roswell Daily Record")<br /><br />2. When the debris reaches Roswell the few who handle it are puzzled by its fragmentary nature, but some voice their opinion that it is balloon debris, plus other unidentified tinfoil and sticks. <br />Most probably, the few who saw it are not that impressed and assume it was balloon debris. [I accept that we shall never know for certain if this scenario is correct].<br /><br />3. Haut, who never saw the stuff, prematurely issues his (in)famous press release and earns a later rebuke from Washington.<br /><br />4. Gen. Ramey, upon hearing of this, immediately orders the stuff to Fort Worth en route for Dayton, so his staff can have a good look.<br />Since a refuelling stop will be required anyway, where better than at 8th AF HQ? <br /><br />5. Once the debris is unloaded and spread out in Ramey's office he (or someone else at the base) informs the local newspaper(s)that they have a 'flying disc' available. What is wrong with a bit of base publicity? Ramey is still puzzled but may already suspect its identity.<br /><br />6. Johnson goes out and photographs the debris. There are no secrets, no hurried 'substitutions' and nothing is covered up, nor does is need to be. Marcel and others give brief interviews to the press. Marcel wisely gives no opinion but Newton positively identifies the debris as a Rawin target plus balloon(s). Ramey then informs the local radio station.<br /><br />7. 30+ years later Marcel, perhaps desiring publicity, having lived through 3 decades of UFO controversy, and knowing he had once handled 'UFO debris' spreads the word, which ultimately reaches ET zealot Stan Friedman's ears.<br /><br />8. Friedman, through early interviews with Marcel in 1978-79, gently persuades him that perhaps he (Marcel) handled actual parts of an alien craft all those years ago. Marcel is thus 'hooked'. <br /><br />This sets the tune, others get hooked, the story expands from there and the 'Roswell is ET' hypothesis takes off into the wild blue yonder.cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-36579220709698545492009-10-10T14:33:09.610-07:002009-10-10T14:33:09.610-07:00And Bob, I have to say that I am not overlooking t...And Bob, I have to say that I am not overlooking that point. In my mind there is no need to even consider it part of the argument.<br /><br />Why worry about the why when the what is so disappointing?<br /><br />Are you really willing to accept that a saucer crashed and JUST LUCKILY for the Army the debris looked indistinguishable from balloon wreckage?<br /><br />Kevin researched this case extensively--he left virtually no stone unturned (as this fascinating interview shows) and he did a great service those of us interested in this stuff.<br /><br />He also helped create a (probably) forever enduring myth for the ages.<br /><br /><br />The fact that Roswell is not about saucers takes none of that away. I suppose that Kevin's emotional attachment to the myth must be very powerful after so many years of work but I can't help but suspect that doubt creeps in from time to time. <br /><br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-8531692307090077942009-10-10T12:03:40.670-07:002009-10-10T12:03:40.670-07:00Lance
With all due respect, you, as a "skept...Lance<br /><br />With all due respect, you, as a "skeptic" are ignoring a glaring point.<br /><br />Whether it was from Mogul, or some other balloon related project, not one of the players in this game would NOT have understood what they were looking at...not one...not even the Rancher, Brazel.<br /><br />So then the question still remains: why do a photo op...AT ALL? Why did they WANT us to see it, especially if there was even a chance that it was related to some unknown-to-them classified project (which they MUST have considered at the time).Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-82832584343292983842009-10-10T11:52:43.669-07:002009-10-10T11:52:43.669-07:00As a skeptic, I, of course, think that the Air For...As a skeptic, I, of course, think that the Air Force was honestly showing the real debris from the crashed Mogul flight.<br /><br />If there was something conclusive about the debris in the photographs that precluded Mogul, I would count that as one point for the pro-UFO side.<br /><br />Why the fact that Marcel identified (twice) the material in the photos as the same stuff he picked up on the ranch is not a devastating and conclusive end for Roswell, I don't know.<br /><br />Kevin's rationalization about that matter strikes me an wholly unsatisfactory.<br /><br />However, even accepting the idea that Marcel just misremembered that point. we are left with the sad realization that the material he DID pick up must have looked amazingly just like balloon debris. An exceedingly unlikely coincidence.<br /><br />And I have to shake my head and wonder how anyone can accept that and STILL cling to some alien spaceship idea.<br /><br />I sure do wish that someone would post a HI-REZ version of the photos somewhere. I would like to look for evidence of the tape with the stylized symbols instead of chasing clouds in the text of the memo.<br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-23015931332321332312009-10-10T10:26:34.265-07:002009-10-10T10:26:34.265-07:00For me, the points CDA raise are the very reason I...For me, the points CDA raise are the very reason I believe there is a cover-up being worked.<br /><br />If there is nothing important going on, there isn't going to be a big story breaking, via the Army Air Corps themselves, PLUS a photo shoot!!<br /><br />It seems all too obvious that there is a slight-of-hand operation in place here, because they WANTED us to see this target material. They, in fact, went out of their way to show it to us.<br /><br />Since we all know that is so, then for me the real question is why were they drawing our attention there, at that point in time? When a magician does it, it is so that you don't see what is really taking place, i.e., the coin is really in his left hand, not the right, etc.<br /><br />As for the memo, this is my take:<br /> <br />It has been clearly demonstrated that none of the known teletypes match the wording in the Ramey Memo...not one. Not even if you include Barry Greenwood's "recent" efforts to show that line 5 is Haut's mispelled name. The wording for the rest of the memo don't match any of those teletypes. So I would go with the military dispatch he already has in his hand scenerio, for those reasons. If the message is mundane, it was still a military teletype he already had in his hand.Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-14263842653457401952009-10-10T09:10:54.680-07:002009-10-10T09:10:54.680-07:00Kevin:
There was no cover story. The USAF did not...Kevin:<br /><br />There was no cover story. The USAF did not need any such cover story. The USAF did not need to have a civilian photographer come out to Fort Worth at all. If the AF genuinely wanted to keep this ghastly secret under wraps, why invite a newspaper to take photos of the object? In fact, why announce anything about Ft Worth?It was going straight to Dayton as per Haut's release. <br /><br />Your whole notion of a 'cover story' and the ersatz balloon is false. Johnson's story changes with time and depends on who interviewed him, and the number of such interviews. This is only natural. You have absolutely no way of knowing whether Johnson's story of handing Ramey the scrap of paper is true or false. All you can say is that if this is true then the memo contains nothing of interest and certainly is not a 'smoking gun'. But if it is false you cannot say anything about the memo with certainty. <br /><br />Johnson handled the junk himself? <br />Really? If it stank like rubber it clearly was recently from the desert sun and therefore the real debris from Roswell. If he never touched the stuff but is merely embellishing this part of his involvement, you are again in a 'don't know' situation.<br /><br />I expect your timelines are dubious as well; reconstructed but of dubious value. Why not drop the whole idea that Ramey substituted something for the actual debris? Marcel insisted at first that one of the pics showed the real stuff but, as with Johnson, his testimony got 'revised' with time. <br /><br />I have twice pointed out that the guys at Roswell almost certainly DID recognise the debris for what it was, but had to forward it to Ft Worth (and Dayton) once Haut's press release went out. The stop at Ft Worth was a refuelling stop, I presume, and the AF had no need whatever to announce such a stop to the press if it really was a top secret flight. Haut's release merely said "higher HQ" (meaning Wright Field). <br /><br />My conclusion: there was no substitution, there was no cover story, Johnson was told to go to Ft Worth because it was a hot 'flying disc' story, not a top secret cover-up, and the stuff he photographed was the real debris, or a portion thereof. <br /><br />But of course that conflicts with what you have been trying desperately to convey to the public for the last 20 years, doesn't it?cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-5433172080543154312009-10-10T05:17:41.168-07:002009-10-10T05:17:41.168-07:00Lance -
I would say that there is a single balloo...Lance -<br /><br />I would say that there is a single balloon here and that is the black stuff in the rear of the picture. The other debris doesn't seem to be enough for more than one rawin target. Both these sorts of items were used by Mogul. There just doesn't seem to be enough here to suggest Mogul but that is opinion and not fact.<br /><br />So, no, there is nothing here to suggest it's not from Mogul, other than the limited amount of debris. But that's really the point. Mogul was nothing so extraordinary that it would be unrecognizable to those who saw it.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-68226085515152503312009-10-09T17:57:18.619-07:002009-10-09T17:57:18.619-07:00Hi Kevin,
Very interesting and certainly underlin...Hi Kevin,<br /><br />Very interesting and certainly underlines your major role in uncovering virtually all the Roswell players.<br /><br />Forgive me if I have asked this before, but it does seem an important point:<br /><br />Is there anything shown in the photographed debris that absolutely precludes the material from being part of what we call Project Mogul? And if so, can you provide details?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />LanceLancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280922104955532058noreply@blogger.com