tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post543145821883109469..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: Flying Saucers and Kenneth ArnoldKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-31998464509489586262019-08-28T12:41:28.207-07:002019-08-28T12:41:28.207-07:00Nicolas Roerich had a sighting in the 1926 describ...Nicolas Roerich had a sighting in the 1926 described as a silver metallic disc. There is some old photos of pre 1947 saucer shaped (hard to tell) objects one from China 1942 and one from the UK in 1944. I tried to research these more but couldn't find anything apart from copy paste info. I am not sure if you mean the term saucer or a description of a saucerrgh-ufoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00685650171032327916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-76625423082421734972015-07-10T05:44:32.635-07:002015-07-10T05:44:32.635-07:00N.F. wrote: "As you can see nothing like what...N.F. wrote: "As you can see nothing like what was reported on the hoax disc. The military rarely gets wordy, for instance on aircraft instead of saying "Do Not Step Here" it says simply "No Step""<br /><br />You're NOT taking into account that your example is really not a fair comparison, imo, because yours is simply a military part numbering or catalog system, and that has NOTHING to do with a top secret UFO that might crash and be found. Of course, the labeling will be more informative and detailed and wordy enough to help some person of any age or gender understand this is a serious matter and how to contact the authorities. Also, we are already getting a 2nd hand or 3rd hand account, since this is an AP report that may have modified the original article. We do not know if they paraphrased this, but I did NOT see quotation marks either to indicate a precise quote either. <br /><br />So, this tells me serious research needs to be done about this, yet no one has done it that I'm aware of. Kevin Randle certainly knows how to follow-up on these matters, imo.eBikesRChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06043176353199141815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-89689603941261384822015-07-08T18:24:50.825-07:002015-07-08T18:24:50.825-07:00@ Neal
I wasn't suggesting you "made-up...@ Neal <br /><br />I wasn't suggesting you "made-up" the heat issue. It would be a problem given the supposed speeds the Spade was to achieve...unless components of the aircraft used Titanium.<br /><br />Public records indicate Kroll, a German immigrant, formulated the extrusion process in the late 1930's...but he was ignored by US aircraft designers during WW2.....until about 1946-47. What if they had actually applied Titanium to some designs in 1946 a bit earlier than publicly reported?<br /><br />For example, the F-86 was operational in 1948. Design for it started in 1944, but was delayed as engineers tried to incorporate technology from German aircraft designers. It is one of the first planes to be built with significant amounts of Titanium. The metal was used on the airframe and engine.<br /><br />I will agree that the 1947 sightings do defy what we publicly know about materials application in postwar aircraft giving the impression that no human manufacturing process in the 1940s could have produced operational craft in the supposed varieties and number seen by saucer witnesses.<br /><br />But perhaps we have not been made privy to all the postwar projects flowing from early Cold War era competition and Nazi prototypes.Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-4705414005129954182015-07-08T14:17:37.046-07:002015-07-08T14:17:37.046-07:00@Brian
If you're talking about the Space Muse...@Brian<br /><br />If you're talking about the Space Museum here's what the website says:<br /><br />"Shuttle Park<br />Explore the most complete chronology of launch vehicles in the country, including the world’s only fully-stacked Space Transportation System (STS) that includes two solid rocket boosters, genuine space shuttle main engine nozzles and a genuine external tank. This orbiter, Pathfinder, is on display in Shuttle Park and is flanked by a T-38, a twin-engine supersonic jet used in astronaut training."<br /><br />So it's a real ET, not a mock up. I worked at NASA Michoud so I think I know more than you do about the tank. This was also where the first two stages of the Apollo rockets were built. We had a real Saturn V booster at the main gate. There were real engines stored in one of the bays at the assembly building.<br /><br />The engineers who worked for AVRO reported the heat problems, I'm not making that up. Maybe metallurgy problems, I don't know, but what makes you think that they overcame those problems in 1947 when they couldn't do that later?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-45759383539744063802015-07-08T13:35:15.882-07:002015-07-08T13:35:15.882-07:00@ Neal and Albert -
Yes, saucer shaped aircraft d...@ Neal and Albert -<br /><br />Yes, saucer shaped aircraft did often result in instability tests - but using conventional propulsion systems - and not always. The Spade used a then, unconvential power plant. <br /><br />Mock ups are made for many reasons - typically just for show without any "guts" on the interior. And NASA did build mock ups of the fuel tank and shuttle. You can see them in Huntsville, AL.<br /><br />What Arnold reported was something more like a jet aircraft, pulse engine, or ram jet. Their reported behavior, shape and flight pattern is not what is commonly reported with classic UFO sightings. There were no right angle 90 degree turns, they did not stop and then shoot upward and out of sight, they did not hover.<br /><br />I might add that Tesla demonstrated electrogravitic levitation in the 1930's, followed by Biefield-Brown.<br /><br />A circular shape is the most practical design for a vehicle that doesn't need wings because it works on a different principle altogether.Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-66391997374075766012015-07-08T12:04:41.753-07:002015-07-08T12:04:41.753-07:00oops, should have said accounts from Portland.
@u...oops, should have said accounts from Portland.<br /><br />@ufodude2010<br /><br />The jeweler admitted it was just a hoax. And the inscription does look like something a civilian would make up. You don't need to be a military expert to see that. Just look at the military section on e-bay. Here's what is printed on a box of canteen corks from WWII.<br /><br />8465-377-6965<br />GASKET, CAP, WATER CANTEEN<br />100 EACH<br />A 3/64<br /><br />As you can see nothing like what was reported on the hoax disc. The military rarely gets wordy, for instance on aircraft instead of saying "Do Not Step Here" it says simply "No Step"<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-89265511091027558652015-07-08T11:30:21.021-07:002015-07-08T11:30:21.021-07:00@albert,
I agree with that, some sightings may we...@albert,<br /><br />I agree with that, some sightings may well be secret projects with advanced technology but not the Arnold sighting and so many other sightings around the world.<br /><br />If you read the newspaper accounts Portland shortly after the Arnold sighting it does appear that there was some sort of saucer mania going on around the country. Some were just plain hoax reports. Even the balloon lady was probably right about some cases. It's difficult to say that all the sightings were false though.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-13757505975982097332015-07-08T11:29:18.797-07:002015-07-08T11:29:18.797-07:00eBikesRC::
'This is WHY I know Roswell is par...eBikesRC::<br /><br />'This is WHY I know Roswell is part of some MILITARY UFO EARTH BASED secret program.'<br /><br />Please site authenticated documentation provided by the U.S. government to back up these claims please.<br /><br />"Military secret of the United States of America. Army Air Forces M4339658."<br /><br />So we are to believe the government is going to put 'military secret' on their flying craft? I could see 'property', but not 'military secret'.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01219955978561630627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-91565917258425516562015-07-08T10:55:54.627-07:002015-07-08T10:55:54.627-07:00@Neal,
Although I believe _some_ sightings are m...@Neal, <br /><br />Although I believe _some_ sightings are military projects, and some may be very advanced technology.<br />.<br />...alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15547680170328747214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-22661695667589361312015-07-08T09:48:21.968-07:002015-07-08T09:48:21.968-07:00@ albert
Some people tried to say that the Arnold...@ albert<br /><br />Some people tried to say that the Arnold sighting was the Navy "Flying Flapjack". Trouble was there was only one of those and it was on the East Coast. To say that the sighting was of a Frost design makes no sense at all. For the reasons you mentioned and more, the Spade as it was called was a VTOL design that took off and landed vertically. Look at Space-X, they can't get their rocket to do that even with modern computers.<br /><br />To assume that anyone could build nine of these things that could do what the objects in the Arnold sighting could do stretches the imagination. For one thing why would they waste the money building a wooden mock up when they already had nine that worked? Just as an aside, NASA wanted to build a wooden mock up of the External Tank for the Shuttle but it was too expensive. They ended up with a life size rendering on the wall of the assembly building.<br /><br />Most people carry computers in their pockets that are more capable than the ones used for Apollo. How could they have had anything in 1947 that could provide stability to a saucer shaped craft? I'm addressing this to you because Brian doesn't want to listen, he wants to say that all sightings are secret projects. To me the numbers alone rule that out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-21510244404392763962015-07-08T08:39:58.333-07:002015-07-08T08:39:58.333-07:00@Brian,
I DO believe that secret military technol...@Brian,<br /><br />I DO believe that secret military technology is being developed continuously. I also said, "...known lack of flight control technology...". Saucer-shaped aircraft are extremely unstable. Either they had very sophisticated computers back then, or they had some otherworldly technology that accomplished the same thing. Saucer craft offered little improvement over existing aircraft designs. They would have (and still may have) value as decoys or disinformation devices. The public may fall for it, but the worlds militaries would know better. The world-wide IC community always knows more about us than we do.<br />.<br />...alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15547680170328747214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-41240841408653365702015-07-07T18:56:44.812-07:002015-07-07T18:56:44.812-07:00@Albert - you commented:
"AVRO-type saucer-s...@Albert - you commented:<br /><br />"AVRO-type saucer-shaped aircraft were never shown to have been flown (unlike the flying wing types that actually did fly). While both were 'aerodynamic' shapes, neither could be controlled safely by human pilots."<br /><br />You are basing that conclusion on what is in the public domain regarding military development of saucer shaped aircraft.<br /><br />Do you believe that today, all secret military and defense projects are "reported" or publically made "known"? If not, why would you assume that in the late 1940's secret weapons research would be publically shared?Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-33903471216459956662015-07-07T18:04:47.029-07:002015-07-07T18:04:47.029-07:00UFOs in the Arctic, 1971
http://www.theblackvault...UFOs in the Arctic, 1971<br /><br />http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/arctic-ufo-photographs-uss-trepang-ssn-674-march-1971/#Jeanne Rupperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05382531551858084318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-20238526473481570972015-07-07T10:38:10.687-07:002015-07-07T10:38:10.687-07:00AVRO-type saucer-shaped aircraft were never shown ...AVRO-type saucer-shaped aircraft were never shown to have been flown (unlike the flying wing types that actually did fly). While both were 'aerodynamic' shapes, neither could be controlled safely by human pilots. It would be decades before flight control computers would enable even un-aerodynamic ('flying rocks') aircraft like the F-117 to fly. The idea that the military had such craft (and supersonic at that) in the forties and fifties is ridiculous, if for no other reason than the known lack of flight control technology. FC computers are relatively sophisticated, even by today's standards.<br />.<br />...alberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15547680170328747214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-34079647993237303202015-07-06T21:07:40.284-07:002015-07-06T21:07:40.284-07:00I found this from the Oregon MUFON website, a comp...I found this from the Oregon MUFON website, a compilation of stories published in Portland newspapers from two days to about two weeks after Arnold's sighting. This is a link to the first of three pages:<br /><br />http://www.oregonmufon.com/index.php/oregon-history/44-articles-from-portland-newspapers-1<br /><br />Certainly shows a lot of reports from across the country. On the top of page three is a landing story with possibly the first description of travel of the landing saucers (although described as more like washtubs) resembling "falling leaves". Something that was common in later reports.<br /><br />At the bottom of page three one of the first self appointed debunkers. A lady who sold balloons at carnivals.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-86412869503996343062015-07-06T17:04:19.153-07:002015-07-06T17:04:19.153-07:00"Military secret of the United States of Amer..."Military secret of the United States of America. Army Air Forces M4339658. Anyone damaging or revealing description or whereabouts of this missile subject to prosecution by the U.S. government. Call collect at once, LD446, Army Air Forces Denot, Spokane, Wash." He said the words "non-explosive" also were carried.<br />---------------------------<br />Back in those days you did NOT have a phone-address book for Spokane in Houston, nor did a jeweler know of that military address/location and specific contact information for that base. No, that part is NOT a joke, nor is that part a hoax. And, the Chronicle did find that information worked to find someone at the other end of their phone calls interested including the Spokane military base with no comment.<br /><br />It's quite typical in case after case that people are told to shut-up about it afterwards, so saying it was all a joke is an easy way out. But, the logic above confirms the previous sentence here, IMO.<br /><br />I don't think "joking" or "hoaxing" would be anyone's MO back in that time frame. That kind of hoax game would be played later by fraud artists typically within an established UFO community. Those leaders or groups did not exist then.<br /><br />What would be happening is people would be misidentifying objects in the sky, BUT NOT crashed objects on the ground, IMO. A witness may not know exactly what it is, but the witness can describe the object debris up-close with time to look at it and report it fairly accurately vs some object high in the sky thousands of feet or more away.<br /><br />Anyway, no one seems to have followed-up on these reports. These named people probably did exist. Was this military "M4339658" ID system on the object used? It's wide-open to investigation, and it should have been done long ago.eBikesRChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06043176353199141815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-80139161739155084572015-07-06T10:57:00.486-07:002015-07-06T10:57:00.486-07:00Hello,
Ufology is strange -sic- (pseudo-scientifi...Hello,<br /><br />Ufology is strange -sic- (pseudo-scientific?) and have proposed "points" to defend itself regarding her desire to become "scientific", but not in accordance of the modern myth they have elaborated/constructed and Arnold "princeps case"...<br /><br />You guys, when you construct "scale" concerning the validity of your "pseudo" UFO sighting insist about "Multiple witnesses" and ask "agnostic" to be cautious about/if "only one witness", but this case is becomed your golden one... Wow, guys!<br /><br />Same, you insist about a sighting and when the narrative doesn't change with time, despite Kenneth Arnold, have changed by time (when he meet Ray Palmer)...<br /><br />Please, try to have some semblance of logic... And maybe Sciences will be interrested.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Gilles Fernandez.Gilles Fernandezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17128214022795566635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-70082445312903294532015-07-06T10:55:19.692-07:002015-07-06T10:55:19.692-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Gilles Fernandezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17128214022795566635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-7525429257840804822015-07-06T10:11:42.533-07:002015-07-06T10:11:42.533-07:00Well it appears that from 29 June 1947 there was a...Well it appears that from 29 June 1947 there was almost one news article per day following Arnold's original report. Regarding the Houston article and Trinity Bay, this was reported in an Abeliene paper.<br /><br />On July 8, 1947 the Abilene Reporter News reported that the fragments of two purported "flying disks" were found, one disk found on a beach a Trinity Bay, near Houston and one found near Hillsboro.<br /><br />Note it said "fragments" not complete saucers. The Hillsoboro caseleft synthetic plastic debris.<br /><br />That area has been known to have other sightings including one photographed in 1968. Decades later there was an object that crashed there. This was reported by the San Leon paper:<br /><br />"Whatever it was that crashed to Earth in San Leon on September 24th, it has generated a lot of interest from the United States government and from private investigative groups. The known facts are that on the evening of September 24th, several witnesses saw a fiery object moving at a high rate of speed fall from the sky and land in a cow pasture at 18th Street and Broadway. This occurred just after 5:30 pm.<br />The object reportedly exploded in a fireball upon impact, setting the field afire. The first responders to arrive were the San Leon Volunteer Fire Department. They were reportedly unaware of what had started the blaze, but battled flames that threatened to get out of control in the dry gusty conditions on that date. The fire covered about 60 acres of pasture, and no buildings were destroyed. At first. Assistant Fire Chief Scott Lyons was very cooperative, telling us that the object might have been a meteorite, or part of a falling satellite. Since then, Lyons and other officials won’t speak “on the record” about the incident, saying they cannot comment on cases that are still under investigation. They were unable to disclose exactly what is under investigation, or even whether there is any investigation regarding the incident. In the meanwhile, a team of scientists from the NASA Space Center visited the scene the morning after the fire, and closed the area off with yellow crime scene warning tape. They encamped at the spot for two days, and – judging from the mess they left behind – removed a large amount of dirt from the site. Unmarked helicopters, presumably military, have also been seen hovering above the site and flying around it on several occasions recently. A neighbor who asked not to be named, wrecker service owner Sam Adams, said that at one point a member of the NASA crew at the site asked him to bring a winch and assist in loading a truck with some debris from the site. Adams said he was not able to see what was loaded into the flatbed truck, as it was wrapped up and tied inside of a large tarpaulin. He said whatever it was weighed 600-800 pounds, and was approximately the size of a grand piano. The NASA crew at the site was wearing white-colored hazmat safety suits, but Adams said they appeared to be wearing US Air Force uniforms underneath. The one who requested Adams help had an eagle insignia, indicating the rank of Colonel. Eyewitness Jerry Long of San Leon, who saw the object fall and the subsequent explosion, then dialed 9-1-1. “I saw it fall out of the corner of my eye, I didn’t really get a good look. But as I turned that way, it hit the ground and blew up like a huge bomb. The ground shook. The flames shot out in every directions for hundreds of feet. I fell down on the ground, I was so startled and shaken.” Our attempts to get some comment from NASA was unsuccessful. We were referred to the Public Affairs Officer at the Johnson Space Center, Michael Kincaid, who said the only thing he had the authority to do would be to send us a brochure about the Space Center and Museum and tours. “Speaking off the record, and not for publication” Kincaid said, “I can tell you that the object seen by the witnesses in San Leon was most likely a reflection of swamp gases caused by decaying vegetation in the nearby bayou.”Brian Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201018843054563257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-70705309906473404362015-07-06T08:35:08.805-07:002015-07-06T08:35:08.805-07:00cda
I'm going to agree with you there. I can&...cda<br /><br />I'm going to agree with you there. I can't say I've ever seen a secret project but the inscription doesn't sound very military to me. Military inscriptions tend to be less wordy. It does seem odd that the guy who found it wasn't prosecuted. You have to wonder why the newspaper wasn't told to hold the story.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-46324290900254059502015-07-06T06:10:38.369-07:002015-07-06T06:10:38.369-07:00eBikesRC:
I submit that the two Houston discs wer...eBikesRC:<br /><br />I submit that the two Houston discs were fictitious, phoney.<br /><br />We are told that the inscription said to call some AAF place in Spokane. OK so why didn't the guy who found it (Hargrave) do just that, instead of telling his tale to the Houston Chronicle and letting them do it? Why also did not the AAF take steps to recover the 'disc'? By telling the newspaper Hargrave had already "revealed its whereabouts" so he ought to have been prosecuted, as the inscription says. Why wasn't he? And why on earth did the Spokane office (who demanded to be notified of its discovery) then refer the newspaper to another office? And when this Col Warren "went to investigate" what did he find? Any idea? <br /><br />The whole tale is a yarn - it is as simple as that.<br /><br />And I am still curious as to why these two tales appeared in the press on the same day as the Roswell 'disc' was first announced. <br /><br />Was the press in those parts suffering from 'landed disc-omania' maybe?cdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005702597775594084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-35572790207872194272015-07-05T18:11:22.630-07:002015-07-05T18:11:22.630-07:00Lance:
"And I did say his first descriptions...Lance:<br /><br /><i>"And I did say his first descriptions. The drawing came several weeks later apparently and, as we see, Arnold had quite an imagination as evidenced by his later description of another craft." </i><br /><br />Well, if by "several weeks" you wanted to mean less than three weeks, then we are OK.<br /><br />Notice also that implying that the imagination of Arnold acted to somehow distort what he really saw can be used also against the skeptic theories. One may propose that Arnold really saw a disc shape object, but that his "imagination" and his airplane background make him imagine that the object needed something like a tail-side, erasing from his memory the real shape, which had no tail absolutely, and obliging his mind to destroy the simmetry of a circular shape, and putting to it something vaguely resembling a tail side. Further months would have converted the almost-disc shape into something more airplane-like, a boomerang, flying wing, etc, etc, etc.Don Maorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09501920515893210306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-34127890405302664502015-07-05T16:35:11.253-07:002015-07-05T16:35:11.253-07:00Does this seem to be a joke? I think not. Is this ...Does this seem to be a joke? I think not. Is this how secret craft were sometimes labeled? This is very important to my understanding of the UFO wave in 1947. Did ANY UFO researcher ever attempt to follow-up on this? WHY not?????????????? [See my post above for more details and a link.]<br /><br />Today he said it was all a joke, but the Chronicle, after extensive checking, said "there are some mysterious facts contained in his (Hargrave's) first report that lend credence to the tale."<br /><br />Hargrave first said the disk bore this wording: "Military secret of the United States of America. Army Air Forces M4339658. Anyone damaging or revealing description or whereabouts of this missile subject to prosecution by the U.S. government. Call collect at once, LD446, Army Air Forces Denot, Spokane, Wash." He said the words "non-explosive" also were carried.<br /><br />It was recalled that the initial reports of flying saucers or disks originated in the Spokane area.<br /><br />The Chronicle, meanwhile, telephoned Spokane, and said it "brought interest" on the part of the commanding officer, but he would not confirm or deny that the missile may have carried the message. Later he referred Houston to Wright Field, Ohio, but the commanding officer there was out of town.<br /><br />In Houston, Col. R. W. Warren, commanding officer of Ellington Field, said he had been instructed by Washington to investigate.eBikesRChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06043176353199141815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-28715568435148685672015-07-05T15:35:04.641-07:002015-07-05T15:35:04.641-07:00If the exterior of an aircraft is highly reflectiv...If the exterior of an aircraft is highly reflective, does that result in a larger radar signature? Just wondering, because the descriptions of the saucers make me think of lighter-than-air craft, maybe experimental decoys of some kind. The Army utilized inflatable tank decoys during the D-day invasion, and I wonder if, in later years, the Air Force tried something similar.CommanderCronushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11118630938118257930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-53399937000911181972015-07-05T14:06:52.686-07:002015-07-05T14:06:52.686-07:00Brian,
- Shape close but not identical
- Theoreti...Brian,<br /><br />- Shape close but not identical<br />- Theoretical Speed identical<br />- Direction of origin matching alleged source: As if aircraft never alter course. Boeing is nearby too and is has produced designs that actually work.<br />- Designer known to favor saucer shapes, that fail time after time.<br />- Secret project canceled because of problems that couldn't be overcome.<br />- Data revealed decades later: Just not true, the project was known about at least by the 1960's, the picture of the wooden prototype was found later.<br /><br />Sorry Brian, time traveling designs work no better than time traveling dummies for explanations.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703256896826354786noreply@blogger.com