tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post7963404507065202746..comments2024-03-19T11:13:40.642-07:00Comments on A Different Perspective: The Great Aztec Debate on ParacastKRandlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-32484118886638096502013-08-11T13:24:55.239-07:002013-08-11T13:24:55.239-07:00Kevin,
I sorry I missed your debate with Scott. I...Kevin,<br /><br />I sorry I missed your debate with Scott. If I remember correctly, Frank Warren promised you that Scott Ramsey would provide a rebuttal to my critique of "The Aztec Incident" in which I proved that several of his conclusions were wrong(See Aztec in Perspective by Monte Shriver posted on this site Feb 5,8 and 11). I believe that both Frank Warren and Dr. Frank Thayer also told me Scott would rebut all the errors I found in "The Aztec Incident". To date I have seen no such rebuttal. I am not only from Aztec but the only person of record who knew and interviewed Jack Dunning (son of Harold Dunning) and he told me that no such event happened in Hart Canyon.<br />Another life long friend of Jack's, Gerald W., told me that in all the years he hunted with Jack Dunning in Hart Canyon was the so-called Disc ever mentioned. On May 8,2013 I presented my work "IT's About Time" to the San Juan County Historical Society with over 50 "Old Timers" in attendance and I have yet to hear from anyone that grew up in Aztec (as I did)say that they ever heard anythng about a disc landing in Hart Canyon. So Mr. Ramsey, I'm still waiting for your rebuttal to the factual errors I pointed out in your book "The Aztec Incident".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01102708876816686845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-40064979917691504912013-08-11T11:11:43.961-07:002013-08-11T11:11:43.961-07:00While I don't always agree with Paul, he makes...While I don't always agree with Paul, he makes some good comments about Aztec. He has clearly done his research. But he didn't have to throw those silly cracks about me and Chris O'Brien and our conduct during that Paracast debate. This was a debate between two people, Ramsey and Randle. So we let them have their say, and simply kept the discussion flowing. Interrupting at every point where someone tried to distract us would have worked against the format of this episode.<br /><br />At the end of the day, Kevin has it right: There is no paper trail before the Scully book that proves Aztec ever occurred. More to the point, I wonder what would happen if someone just invented a a new UFO event, allegedly occurring 60 years ago near a small town in rural America. Would going back to the place where it allegedly occurred bring some vague memories of such an event? We've been polluted with UFO lore for decades, and there have been real sightings in many locales.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Peace,<br />GeneGene Steinberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01015909139333053816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-12798112525068264562013-08-11T03:31:50.308-07:002013-08-11T03:31:50.308-07:00Stan Friedman is Paul Kimball's uncle?! WTF? H...Stan Friedman is Paul Kimball's uncle?! WTF? Had no idea.<br /><br />Anyhooow to the topic at hand - the only people who are going to be convinced by Ramsey, are those already convinced of an Aztec crash ie true believers. If only Kevin R was as skeptical of Roswell as he is of Aztec. Ah well, you have to take what you can get I suppose.<br /><br />I gotta say though (since nobody else is) that believing in a Roswell ET crash whilst dismissing (rightly) Aztec is kinda exasperating. Maybe it's best just to have a sense of humour about it all. Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04531198239870181089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-53330491677975425402013-08-08T17:21:41.181-07:002013-08-08T17:21:41.181-07:00Robert -
I think you need to reread the section. ...Robert -<br /><br />I think you need to reread the section. Clearly he is refering to the mass sighting, but he then references the site where one was found. The point here is that the name of Aztec, associated with a downed saucer was well known before the October photo hoax.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-46406377221611360182013-08-08T15:09:13.579-07:002013-08-08T15:09:13.579-07:00I think that the Scully comment about the "F...I think that the Scully comment about the "Farmington report" refers to the widely-publicized mass-sighting there, and not to any supposed crash. "Scientist X" is making the claim that the Farmington saucers were scouting the area near where one of their own had gone down, presumably looking for it.<br />Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-37171582631997160542013-08-06T23:40:27.550-07:002013-08-06T23:40:27.550-07:00Dennis-
From documents I read many years ago, the...Dennis-<br /><br />From documents I read many years ago, the story unfolded like this:<br /><br />One LD McLaughlin, not Cline, was drunk at a bar, and phoned Army Intel claiming he had photos of a disk, and he was threatening to make them public.<br /><br />In a later memo, someone identified as "Cline" went to meet McLaughlin at the bar to purchase the photos.<br />This is where the trail goes cold.<br /><br />I discussed the identity of this McLaughlin character with a researcher, and suggested it could have been, secretly, Robert McLaughlin...but he was apparently away, out at sea, at the time.<br /><br />I searched for him myself, with what time I could afford, and came up with one good lead. I made contact with this fellow, but it didn't pan out.<br /><br />Whoever this "Cline" person was, he cannot be located or identified.<br /><br />/Bob <br />Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-49503660802158030462013-08-04T20:54:35.391-07:002013-08-04T20:54:35.391-07:00Kevin - I'm sure I'm missing some key info...Kevin - I'm sure I'm missing some key information regarding the person named "Cline" attempting to sell pictures of the crashed UFO at Aztec. But, it seems to me that the key question here is not whether the pictures existed - the question instead should be - why was the Army CID and AFOSI interested in the issue at all?<br /><br />Even if it was an attempted con-job and the pictures were fake (if they existed at all), why would the Army CID or Air Force care? What was their motivation for launching an official investigation?<br /><br />Wouldn't it simply be another run-of-the-mill fraud case perhaps even unworthy of the time and attention of the local District Attorney?<br /><br />Again, isn't the key question - why were the Army CID and Air Force OSI interested?Dennis Pharrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11172621302757904068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-51417410603845206892013-08-04T16:38:08.951-07:002013-08-04T16:38:08.951-07:00The thing about the notorious concrete slab (and t...The thing about the notorious concrete slab (and the affiliated metal rod) is that the film was shot in March, 2004, at which point Scott said the "lab tests" on the concrete and metal would be done soon... within a year. Well, here we are almost a decade later, and still no results... which is no surprise. But it does make one wonder what, exactly, they spent the supposed $500,000 on.<br /><br />PKAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06096798786330516126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-83559222388168350282013-08-04T00:25:21.462-07:002013-08-04T00:25:21.462-07:00Paul Kimball's film is extremely useful. You a...Paul Kimball's film is extremely useful. You actually get to see the notorious concrete slab. I think it's a curiosity worth noting, but cannot imagine how this slab, and not a shred of the alleged spaceship, proves any validity of the Aztec case. The film doesn't grind any ideological axe. In fact, it's pretty generous to Mr. Ramsey. In his post, all Kimball is noticing is very common techniques of evasion in an argument. Anyone who performs in public or argues in public can only utter a hearty "amen".Sapienthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11121656521131857090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-82466419818921903962013-08-02T23:03:39.026-07:002013-08-02T23:03:39.026-07:00Thank you, Kevin. For the record, I don't rule...Thank you, Kevin. For the record, I don't rule out the possibility of extraterrestrial visitation to Earth at some point, although as the years go on I think it less and less likely. <br /><br />But on Aztec I have no doubt, for reasons I have made clear over the years. But the proof of even-handedness is in the pudding, and I don't think anyone could watch the film I did about Aztec several years ago and not come away thinking that Scott and his fellow believers had been fairly treated.<br /><br />PKAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06096798786330516126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-36063076069435950102013-08-02T19:02:12.735-07:002013-08-02T19:02:12.735-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-54644264103916811042013-08-02T19:02:06.242-07:002013-08-02T19:02:06.242-07:00Daniel -
I fear you misread Paul on this one. He ...Daniel -<br /><br />I fear you misread Paul on this one. He spent a great deal of time with Scott Ramsey looking at the evidence for the Aztec crash case. He speaks from his experiences with that and not out of some sort of attitude that there cannot be alien visitation therefore there is not, but from one who has looked at the evidence. And, ironically, his uncle is Stan Friedman so I think he has been treated to more of the pro side of the UFO coin than the other.<br /><br />And while it might be intriguing to read the three books you listed, please note that each contains a great deal of misinformation, leaps of logic, and more than a few misstated facts.<br /><br />On this one, I side with Paul... on many others we disagree.KRandlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333125414889883920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-20575867547082212662013-08-02T14:17:47.356-07:002013-08-02T14:17:47.356-07:00I disagree that 'Paul puts it very well'. ...I disagree that 'Paul puts it very well'. In my opinion, he puts it badly and the way he puts it comes from a poisonous attitude towards anyone that so much as has an open mind on this issue.<br /><br />According to Paul, anyone that doesn't go along with his absolute rejection of the main people concerned, is simply a "UFO believer."<br /><br />Thus, if you don't go along with him, you are either a lot less smart and rational than he is ("believer"), or a lot less moral and empathetic than he is ("scam artist").<br /><br />He reduces all of us that don't 100% agree with him to a less human level than he is. This is the way he is playing this game.<br /><br />Decent people can sense this and might be put off from making positive contributions to a discussion on this matter - why subject themselves to being dehumanized in this way, when they can communicate elsewhere and be respected. <br /><br />I recommend reading 'Behind The Flying Saucers'; 'UFO Crash At Aztec', and 'The Aztec Incident'. There is plenty of intriguing information in those three books - you don't have to "believe" anything to enjoy them.Daniel Transithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02936796213773640538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-24334141310631702702013-07-31T19:47:49.314-07:002013-07-31T19:47:49.314-07:00Paul puts it very well. I didn't see any of th...Paul puts it very well. I didn't see any of the topics Ramsey got heated about (so and so's name, a year correction, etc.) as having any bearing on this case. He lists details, but in the end they're all people's stories with no evidence, other than a concrete slab, which could mean anything. I thought you did perfectly well. Cheers, Kevin Henderson.Sapienthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11121656521131857090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-53014346408727623292013-07-29T09:34:00.932-07:002013-07-29T09:34:00.932-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bob Kofordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739226809252915992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-63916822216217934652013-07-28T16:33:15.561-07:002013-07-28T16:33:15.561-07:00P.S. An example of Scott's diversionary chaff ...P.S. An example of Scott's diversionary chaff can clearly be seen when he corrects you on the pronunciation of Leo Gebauer's name, which threw you a bit off guard and neatly deflected things away from the point you were trying to make. It was petty stuff.<br /><br />Interestingly enough, I would refer folks to the Atec: 1948 film, at 5:39 - 40, to see how Scott pronounced Gebauer's name.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qAHicFzqj8<br /><br />PaulAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06096798786330516126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-11582140600860654552013-07-28T16:28:34.684-07:002013-07-28T16:28:34.684-07:00Hi Kevin,
I listened to the "debate" an...Hi Kevin,<br /><br />I listened to the "debate" and I think you did the best that you could. Scott is as slippery as an eel, and can spin his way out of a tight corner when in conversation if people are easily distracted by the chaff he throws up (like O'Brien and Steinberg), but when you look at his claims in detail and pin them down on paper it's clear that they just don't hold water. The Fred Reed letter is just one egregious example of where Scott just can't see the forest for the trees.<br /><br />Aztec was a scam then. It's still a scam now.<br /><br />Best,<br />PaulAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06096798786330516126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11558306.post-65263947413263654772013-07-28T11:51:39.498-07:002013-07-28T11:51:39.498-07:00Kevin, This is off topic, but have you given any ...Kevin, This is off topic, but have you given any thought to a reader questions post?<br />A chance for the followers to post a few questions on your writings and career.<br /><br />wayne Sargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04038947773327250058noreply@blogger.com