Sunday, July 08, 2018

Jesse Marcel's Journal

Jesse Marcel, Sr.
As you all know, one of the problems with the Roswell case is that we have been unable to find any letters, diaries, journals, or notes that were written in 1947 that would tell us about the crash. There have been hints about this, but to this point, none of those hints produced anything that is conclusive. Inez Wilcox, wife of the Roswell sheriff, had written a story about her “four years in the county jail,” talking about what it was like to be the wife of the sheriff. Although the original article contained nothing about the crash, she added a page later that talked about that. Unfortunately, the document was undated, so didn’t help us at all. She could have written her story sometime after 1978 when Jesse Marcel, Sr. told Stan Friedman and Len Stringfield about picking up pieces of a flying saucer in New Mexico.

Jesse Marcel, Sr. Photo
copyright by Kevin
Randle.
Now I learn, through emails sent to me by several colleagues, that we might have some of those documents. Christina Stock reported in the Roswell Daily Record, that Marcel Sr. might just have left that sort of documentation. Jesse Marcel III, the grandson of Jesse Sr. and son of Jesse Sr., announced that they had found a “treasure trove” of documents relating to his grandfather’s military service, including a journal kept by the senior Marcel. If such a journal contains references to what he saw on the Brazel ranch that day in July 1947, and if it contains descriptions of the find, and if it makes any reference to alien beings, that would be huge. Here would be a document that contains information written in 1947 while still fresh in the mind and that would not be contaminated by everything that followed when the Roswell case exploded into the mainstream in the late 1970s.


As I say, this could be the sort of documentation that we all have been waiting for. True, it’s not something official from the US government, but it would be something written in the proper time frame and that would make it a very important document. The lack of any thing like that, written at the time in the form of letters, diaries or journals, has always been a worry for all of us. If this pans out, it might be the key to unlocking the mystery.

95 comments:

Larry said...

Was there any indication what the plan is for releasing the documents to the public?

Paul Young said...

That would be great, but I won't be holding my breath. Jesse Marcel jnr. was subject to as much ridicule as his father and would have been highly motivated to find information like that within his father's belongings/estate, which would go some way to back up his/their story.
Call me paranoid but I'd find it suspicious that Marcel III could come up with evidence that Marcel II couldn't.

David From AU said...

Website matter: On any browser I use, each new article now seems to appear in a different typeface and size from the one before. This isn't a huge deal of course, but it arguably makes the blog look a little messy and inconsistent in appearance.

TheDimov said...

My immediate sentiment echoed that of Mr Young's above, that surely Jesse Jr would have hunted down any and everything to do with his father, who he sincerely adored, it seems strange he never had access to this newfound cache. Having said that, if something is found that progresses the case in a big way as hoped, who cares what the circumstances, and I certainly hope there is something to be found in this trove.

cda said...

I have to agree with Paul Young. I certainly will not be holding my breath.

Kevin: Why not ask yourself a very simple and very obvious question. Why has such a critical document, or documents, about intelligent beings from elsewhere visiting planet earth, suddenly come to our notice 71 years after it supposedly happened?

I think, deep inside, you know the answer.

Lance said...

If only there was a festival or museum that could take advantage of such an announcement...

Maybe Professor’s Cary and Schmitt could do the “verification”.

09rja said...

The problem with any diary or document written (at any point) by Jesse Marcel Sr. is......how far can you trust Jesse Marcel Sr.? The record indicates that he had a tendency to exaggerate things. So really it comes back down to him thinking he recovered something extraordinary at the Foster ranch when he probably didn't.

And even when he began talking.....he never mentioned anything about a (whole) intact craft or alien bodies. Hopefully Marcel III isn't going to pull a Gerald Anderson on us.

Cabbages&Kings said...

I have to admit, after 30 years of following UFO research, I'm convinced at this point that much of Roswell has CI written all over it; our national security/intelligence apparatus was tightly wound, knowing that Soviet priority #1 was acquisition of atomic weapons. Roswell AAF being the home of the 509th BG, it would be a natural target of Soviet intelligence operations. With the enormous amount of media attention paid to the relatively very recent Kenneth Arnold sighting, a "barium meal test" (also known as a "canary trap") utilizing the "flying disc" theme would serve multiple CI purposes.

The latest round of highly publicized UFO news from December 2017 (AATIP etc.) sees Elizondo, Fravor et al. making the interview rounds, and once again, Hal Puthoff and friends are in the thick of things. Will spoon-bending and remote viewing make a comeback, too? Perhaps I should invest in mood rings and Pet Rocks. This is not to say I consider the UFO subject to be unworthy of serious attention; I simply am of the opinion that in those cases where the prosaic is eliminated, the nature of the phenomenon remains largely unknown- however, the usefulness of it to CI and PSYOP has been known and exploited for decades.

Brian Bell said...

That’s interesting. If they are authentic (or can be authenticated) and genuine, there would almost certainly be some commentary on the incident.

If there’s not however, and I would think in a personal journal there would be given his claims, then I’m even more convinced Marcel exaggerated the importance of this event.

In fact, the journal might just prove he made up his entire crash story.

Of course, if that’s the case, we won’t ever hear about it because I highly doubt Marcel III would ever release any of it. Too much family reputation at stake.

Not holding my breath either.

John Steiger said...

Mr. Bell: "In fact, the journal might just prove he [Marcel, Sr.] made up his entire crash story." This statement reveals how far out and afield into Fantasyland your view toward the July 1947 Roswell event really is.

Jesse Marcel, Sr. is hardly the only firsthand witness substantiating Roswell as an ET event.
Bill Brazel, Jr.; Sleppy, Rickett, Adair, Easley, Gonzales, Gen. DuBose, Gen. Exon, and Rowe all provide convincing testimony independent of Marcel, Sr. substantiating Roswell as ET.

cda said...

John S:

Unless you believe in the conspiracy or cover-up thesis, please tell us why the witnesses you have named kept their silence over such an earth-shattering event (which would rank as one of the most important scientific discoveries ever made) until some 35 to 50 years afterwards.

My own answer is that NONE of these people ever suspected the event to be ET at the time it happened. They only did so decades later when the publicity was rampant and they could get their names in print or appear on TV/radio.

ETH never entered their heads at the time. Why should it?

The current news about Marcel's 'documents' and possible pieces of hardware will fizzle out into nothing of value to science.

starman said...

John Steiger, I agree. As you know, Marcel went to the ranch only after Brazel came to Roswell with debris.
That said, I'm sure this "journal" is just the latest scam intended to muddy the case.

KRandle said...

All -

Let's be clear on this. I don't believe that this is a scam. I believe that they found the documents recently. They seem to include military records, which would be of Jesse Marcel's military service. I have a banker's box filled with documentation that is of no importance to anyone other than me, and I'm sure that this will be the bulk of the material found. The interesting thing is the journal and it really depends on the date of it and what it says. Could be important... whether it validates the extraterrestrial or suggests something of a more mundane nature. I look forward to learning what is found and how it will affect the whole of the Roswell case.

KRandle said...

David -

I sometimes change the font, just for variety and the mood I'm in. No fan of Times New Roman, but do like Courier and Bookman Old Style. However, these don't always translate to the blog for a reason I do not understand. I just thought the change was nice.

09rja said...

"My own answer is that NONE of these people ever suspected the event to be ET at the time it happened."~CDA
-----------------

I think Marcel Sr. did. But he had a tendency to "magnify problems he is confronted with". (A quote from a performance review in Marcel's own military record.)

I think Marcel Sr. (and Jr. who served his country in Iraq in his 60's) was a honorable guy who served his country well. But this misinterpretation of some wreckage just got away from him (and everyone else).

Nitram Ang said...

BB wrote

"In fact, the journal might just prove he [Marcel, Sr.] made up his entire crash story."

Only BB and CDA think nothing crashed! Must agree with John - it shows a very narrow understanding of the July 1947 Roswell event.

As far as the journal goes, it is funny the timing of this announcement - maybe they could have waited until July 2022 (being the 75th anniversary) to look in the cupboard!
Sorry Kevin, but like Lance I just couldn't contain myself...

Regards
Nitram

John Steiger said...

cda: You underestimate the ability of the military to intimidate witnesses to an ET event. You further underestimate the loyalty of members of the military to uphold a sworn oath to secrecy. In addition, some of these witnesses were only exposed to a small part of the event -- why should they suspect an event of such magnitude given their level of exposure?

Addenda: cda, personally I actually hold you in high regard as an interesting contributor to Dr. Randle's blog (!) -- but I simply do not agree with your assessment on a number of points, particularly in regard to Roswell.

09rja: If Marcel's interpretation of the wreckage was mistaken, then literally scores of others were similarly mistaken. I believe this highly unlikely.

couldbebetter said...

Shocking to see the negative attitude on something not even public yet. Being skeptical is
good, but most here have anything but an open mind. Whatever crashed in 1947, the US military
made certain it was covered up and swept under the rug. Look at the "Roswell Report, Case
Closed," which mentions all of the records that were illegally destroyed. Strange that
people such as Sen. Barry Goldwater and Astronauts gordon Cooper and Buzz Aldrin all had interesting views of the UFO phenomenon yet most of the posters here reject anyones statement.
Why the negativity and outright hostility? Reminds me of fanatics that must get others to accept
their point of view. (Something is very wrong with such people.) I hope Mr. Randle will
keep this forum open to intelligent and toughtful discourse on the subject.

hetz barrur said...

The article at the Roswell Daily Record seems to show that the grandchildren are out to vindicate grandpa. I doubt that that is a good sign.

https://www.rdrnews.com/2018/07/05/marcel-family-shares-never-before-seen-artifacts-treasure-trove-for-ufo-researchers-historians-will-shine-light-on-roswell-incident/

Lance, as far as TC and DS go, it looks like they are busy with other things, also reported at the Roswell Daily Record:

https://www.rdrnews.com/2018/07/08/two-roswell-incident-authors-review-findings/

starman said...

cda wrote:

"My own answer is that NONE of these people ever suspected the event to be ET at the time it happened. They only did so decades later when the publicity was rampant...."

This is absurd. Many years before 1978 Roswell was thought to be ET. Edwards mentioned it in a book published around 1966. Including it in a book about flying saucers-thought by Edwards to be ET--shows how it was interpreted, even if the case was still dormant at the time.

09rja wrote:

"But this misinterpretation of some wreckage just got away from him (and everyone else)."

Wreckage from what, exactly?? MOGUL? And if Marcel sr and "everyone else" at the base, made an awful mistake, causing a big, senseless ruckus, it's a bit surprising that the careers of these men, notably Blanchard, don't appear to have been adversely affected.

09rja said...

"Wreckage from what, exactly?? MOGUL? And if Marcel sr and "everyone else" at the base, made an awful mistake, causing a big, senseless ruckus, it's a bit surprising that the careers of these men, notably Blanchard, don't appear to have been adversely affected."~starman

--------------------
No "everyone else" didn't make that mistake. Sheridan Cavitt didn't and Irving Newton didn't. Both identified all this stuff (back in '47) as being a bunch of garbage. And unlike Marcel, Newton (who was a weather forecaster) knew equipment like this when he aw it.

Lance said...

@ Starman:

It is so depressing to try to teach people to read.

CDA said that "NONE of these people ever suspected the event to be ET at the time it happened" Obviously he is talking about the 1947 people around Roswell.

You then mention Frank Edwards 1966 book (which was extremely brief about Roswell and almost wholly forgotten). What does that have to do with the 1947 participants? Nothing.

Your disconnect from reality appears to be almost complete. Please carry on.

UFO believers make the world a worse place to live.

Paul Young said...

anonymous...No "everyone else" didn't make that mistake. Sheridan Cavitt didn't and Irving Newton didn't. Both identified all this stuff (back in '47) as being a bunch of garbage. And unlike Marcel, Newton (who was a weather forecaster) knew equipment like this when he aw it.

Cavitt visited the ranch along with Marcel.
If Cavitt knew, the minute that he saw the debris, that it was a wrecked balloon...then why didn't he tell Marcel what it was?
My understanding is they drove there together. Did they sit in that car going back to the base in complete silence...one of them thinking it was a weather balloon and the other thinking it was a flying saucer!
And why didn't Cavitt tell the guys (Blanchard, etc) instead of letting them make muppets of themselves by broadcasting to the world they'd found a flying disc?

09rja said...

Cavitt visited the ranch along with Marcel.
If Cavitt knew, the minute that he saw the debris, that it was a wrecked balloon...then why didn't he tell Marcel what it was?
My understanding is they drove there together. Did they sit in that car going back to the base in complete silence...one of them thinking it was a weather balloon and the other thinking it was a flying saucer!
And why didn't Cavitt tell the guys (Blanchard, etc) instead of letting them make muppets of themselves by broadcasting to the world they'd found a flying disc?
~Paul Young

Well for one thing, Cavitt said he really wasn't involved with it after it was brought back to the base. (You don't see him in the pictures taken of the junk.....pardon me: crash debris in Ramey's office.) So Marcel's version of events is what got broadcasted to everyone at the base. Secondly, (IIRC) Marcel outranked Cavitt. So he probably didn't want to undermine him. And finally, the whole thing blew over anyway once everyone figured out what the stuff was anyway.

Lance said...

@Paul Young:

Although it has been explained multiple times to believers, I'll try again:

Flying Saucer did not mean in 1947 what YOU now believe it means.
People all over (including authorities like police) were labeling trash much like that found on the ranch as "Flying Disks". Indeed there was a Texas story of foil and melted plastic being called a Flying Disk in the Roswell newspaper on the very morning of the press release.

So Cavitt and Marcel certainly would have recognized that the stuff they found was foil paper, balsa wood, etc. But Marcel could have (and apparently did) believe that the stuff also was possibly one of the Flying Disks he had read about in the paper. This belief may well have been encouraged by the rancher's suggestion that this was the case.

So there is no mystery to this. Cavitt could have simply not known what to say about the stuff--maybe it could have been a flying disk for all he knew.

Now hopefully this is a clear enough explanation of the skeptical side of things. Most believers simply use a hand wave to dismiss it so that they don't offend their religion. If you have questions, however, I am happy to answer.

Lance

John Steiger said...

09rja: Sheridan Cavitt is a proven liar. First Cavitt denied he was even in Roswell in July of 1947, then he admitted he was in Roswell, but he did not participate in any debris recovery, and then he admitted he did participate in the debris recovery, but it was only a weather balloon so why all the fuss? There is no credibility in what Cavitt states.

Paul Young: The generally accepted involvement of Cavitt vis-a-vis Roswell, is that he drove to the Foster Ranch debris field in another vehicle but at the same time as Jesse Marcel, Sr., and then later on drove along with Lewis Rickett to the impact site off Highway 285 north of Roswell.

09rja: As for Irving Newton, he wasn't even in New Mexico in early July 1947, let alone in Roswell. Rather, he acted as Gen. Ramey's unwitting stooge identifying planted wreckage in the General's office unrelated to the Roswell debris.

Lance: Terribly sorry to disappoint you so ...

starman said...

Lance wrote:

"Obviously he is talking about the 1947 people around Roswell."

But after writing "None of these people ever suspected the event to be ET at the time it happened," cda said:

"They only did so decades later when the publicity was rampant." He was talking about the same people, presumably from '78 onwards.

As Edwards's book clearly shows, the second statement is false. Roswell WAS considered an ET event, LONG before the "publicity was rampant." (What Friedman heard about Marcel, before he even met him, also shows cda is wrong.)

09rja wrote:

"...... and Irving Newton didn't."

But Newton was only called by Blanchard to identify the remains of a balloon, after that trash had replaced what Marcel--according to his testimony--originally brought in.

cda said...

Paul Y:

Your remarks about Cavitt only reinforce the doubts I and others had, and have, that Cavitt was ever involved in the 'incident'. If you trace the history of this affair you will find that Marcel initially, when interviewed in 1978 by Moore & Friedman, COULD NOT REMEMBER who it was who accompanied him to the site.

Later Marcel did seem to recall his name (or rather a name of sorts), but thought it was 'Cabot', but he did not really know. Cavitt only got involved because Moore eventually tracked him down and interviewed him, and Cavitt's initial responses would cause any reader to have doubts as to whether he was ever there or not. Cavitt's name does appear on a paper he jointly wrote about the green fireballs episode (the Roswell AF base was part of this), and everyone who talks about Roswell always assumes Cavitt was Marcel's partner in '47. Look at Cavitt's responses to the USAF interview with him and the doubts and inconsistencies are all too obvious.

I do not consider it has ever been proven that Cavitt was indeed Marcel's partner that day they went to the ranch. Cavitt's involvement may well have been in something else entirely. Distant memories are the cause of all that is wrong with Roswell. Exactly the same can be said about Rickett. We know HE WAS involved with the green fireballs as there is documentation to prove it. We DO NOT know, with any degree of certainty, that he was ever involved with the Roswell case of July '47.

The whole case rests entirely on distant recall, as there is no written record. We MAY get something of value from Marcel's supposed diaries or notes he made, but I predict we shall, again, just see a trail of completely useless data. And this supposes the data will ever be made public.

09rja said...

"Sheridan Cavitt is a proven liar. First Cavitt denied he was even in Roswell in July of 1947, then he admitted he was in Roswell, but he did not participate in any debris recovery, and then he admitted he did participate in the debris recovery, but it was only a weather balloon so why all the fuss? There is no credibility in what Cavitt states."~John Steiger
----------
On that basis, if he is a liar, then so is Jesse Marcel and a lot of other Roswell witnesses (whose testimony evolved over time). Marcell initially couldn't even remember who he went out there with and only recalled that it was the "late 40's". Since this thing was nothing to Cavitt, I'm not surprised at all he probably couldn't remember much about it at first.

09rja said...

"But Newton was only called by Blanchard to identify the remains of a balloon, after that trash had replaced what Marcel--according to his testimony--originally brought in."~Starman
-------------------
Yeah that's according to Marcell who also claimed he attended multiple universities (and obtained degrees for which no one can find any record) and also that he was a pilot. (And he never was.) I've tried to be a gentleman about it, but if you want to get right down to it: those are the facts. And there is a whole lot more there if you want to get into it.

cda said...

Starman:

You need to read THE ROSWELL INCIDENT, the original Roswell book, by Berlitz & Moore to see that Marcel did indeed admit that one of the photos showed the actual recovered debris. He then said the other pics showed substituted debris. This is totally senseless. Why on earth should he pose for several photos - one showing the real debris, the others some assumed false stuff?

To put it simply: Marcel did not know what he was talking about. It makes no sense at all, and the reason he said this was because he was shown a cropped photo, not the full photo (as was later depicted in the Randle/Schmitt book). Since this cropped photo differed from the others he was shown, he felt quite happy, maybe under a bit of pressure from Moore & Friedman, to say it was real but that the other photos were phony!

From this and this alone arose the dotty idea that Ramey substituted a real balloon for the actual debris in the six or seven photos shown. Once ALL the photos were shown in full, it became obvious that they all depicted the same stuff. Hence it was ersatz debris(it could hardly be the real ET craft could it?!).

The idea of the false debris being planted for the real debris is a total myth, but persists because pro-ET writers want it to be so.

I no longer have Frank Edwards' book, so cannot tell what he wrote (it wasn't much) except that his 'facts' about the case were quite wrong. He was known to be an inaccurate and imaginative writer when it came to UFOs. One of Keyhoe's buddies I believe.

There is NOTHING in print to show that anyone, in 1947, thought a real ET craft had been recovered. But there are claims, from testimony taken 35-50 years afterwards, that some witnesses had that view. Even the word 'crash' was not used in '47. It was merely the landing of a light instrument. The 'crash' concept only arose post-1978.

And we are told that the military forced (even by alleged death threats!) such witnesses to keep quiet about an ET visit to earth for decade after decade, because the public and the scientific fraternity could NEVER, in any circumstances, be told. And that the documentation on it is still, after 70 years, top secret.

Thus the scientific world is still being denied the great truth, so we are supposed to believe.

Nitram Ang said...

CDA wrote:L

"I do not consider it has ever been proven that Cavitt was indeed Marcel's partner that day they went to the ranch. Cavitt's involvement may well have been in something else entirely."

Therefore another secret that remains to this day after 70 years. But CDA overlooked the earlier post from John Steiger:

"Sheridan Cavitt is a proven liar. First Cavitt denied he was even in Roswell in July of 1947, then he admitted he was in Roswell, but he did not participate in any debris recovery, and then he admitted he did participate in the debris recovery, but it was only a weather balloon so why all the fuss? There is no credibility in what Cavitt states."

So, we can now be fairly certain that Cavitt new the answer, but kept it all secret for some reason. It makes you ask the question - what was so important that he would keep secret?

Nitram Ang said...

Lance, perhaps you can help!

Can we perhaps agree that if:

- The material in the office was switched.

Then mogul goes out the window? Can you at least concede this?

I will concede that if the material shown in the photos is the same material found then there is no coverup...

Can't wait to hear from you Lance.

Regards
Nitram

Nitram Ang said...

CDA wrote:

"And we are told that the military forced (even by alleged death threats!) such witnesses to keep quiet about an ET visit to earth for decade after decade, because the public and the scientific fraternity could NEVER, in any circumstances, be told."

This isn't entirely accurate either. The military used threats to ensure witnesses did not reveal what they saw, NOT NECESSARILY because it was ET. There is a subtle, but important difference here.

Finally and for the 1,473rd time, this is not a secret because we are here discussing it.

Regards
Nitram

09rja said...

"I no longer have Frank Edwards' book, so cannot tell what he wrote (it wasn't much) except that his 'facts' about the case were quite wrong. He was known to be an inaccurate and imaginative writer when it came to UFOs.~CDA
-----
I had that book myself (lost it in a accident around the house last year).....but I did write up what he said on the Roswell incident:

"There are such difficult cases as the rancher near Roswell, New Mexico, who phoned the Sheriff that a blazing disc-shaped object had passed over his house at low altitude and had crashed and burned on a hillside within view of the house. The Sheriff called the military; the military came on the double quick. Newsmen were not permitted in the area. A week later, however, the government released a photograph of a service man holding up a box kite with an aluminum disc about the size of a large pie pan dangling from the bottom of the kite. This, the official report explained, was a device borne aloft on the kite and used to test radar gear by bouncing the signals off the pie pan. And this, we were told, was the sort of thing that had so excited the rancher. We were NOT told, however, how the alleged kite caught fire-nor why the military cordoned off the area while they inspected the wreckage of a burned-out box kite with a non-inflammable pie pan tied to it.

Those were the halcyon days of the "flying saucers" and nobody -or almost nobody- questioned such preposterous statements as the one just quoted. What was actually in that filed I do not know. And those who do know are not permitted to discuss it -publicly.
"

--'Flying Saucers-Serious Business', by: Frank Edwards, (1966), p.41-42 (paperback edition)

And Mr. Edwards had (apparently) been mentioning this in his lectures in the 1950's. The earliest mention I can find of the Roswell incident (post-1947) is in 'Flying Saucers on the Attack' (by: Harold Wilkins) in 1954.

Paul Young said...

Yes...I have to admit that Cavitt certainly is an enigma when it comes to the Roswell case.
I really can't make up my mind over his role in the whole thing.

Maybe the clue is in his job title..."counter intelligence officer".

Basically, this is a guy whose profession was all about NOT TELLING THE TRUTH...
Confusing a situation...
;..Distraction. (Don't look over there...look over here.)

Counter intelligence personnel (like Cavitt) convinced the Nazi's that D-Day Landings were targeting beaches around Pas de Calais ... NOT Normandy.

Therefore...if Sheridan Cavitt told you that today is "pancake tuesday" then rest assured that "pancake tuesday" , IT IS NOT!
...and if he tells you the debris at Foster Ranch was that of a balloon, it most definitely was anything but a balloon.

John Steiger said...

Paul Y: cda insists that evidence for Roswell as ET "rests entirely on distant recall." But in doing so, cda discounts the following: Bill Brazel remembering that his father was held prisoner and incommunicado at RAAF for the best part of a week until Mac altered his story to comport with the AAF's account of the case; a 200 yard long (two football fields) gouge which suddenly appeared in the debris field at Foster Ranch and attested to by multiple witnesses; two separate crash sites extant at the same time in July 1947 (again multiple witnesses incl. two from flyovers); multiple witnesses confirming the heightened security and military presence at both Foster Ranch and along the west side of Highway 285 north of Roswell in early July 1947; General DuBose - Ramey's Chief of Staff - confirming Marcel's account that the debris switch was made to fool Newton, the press and ultimately the public into believing that no ET debris was found even though scores of witnesses physically handled such debris and confirmed its nonterrestrial qualities; Lydia Sleppy's interrupted teletype communication of the crash ordering her to cease transmission; and Frankie Rowe's family threatened with death by the military -- who ostensibly exists to protect the citizenry -- if they even talk about the Roswell ET.

But the Air Force wants you to believe that Roswell was just a weather balloon. And cda and others of like disbelief refuse to accept the truth of the above.

starman said...

09rja:

While I doubt the "treasure trove" of new documentation will prove Roswell was ET (if the journal mentions it at all, it may only so so in codified language) there MIGHT be some verification of other things Marcel said. We'll see. I also recall KDR once wrote that those things may not really matter because Marcel was who he said he was--the intel officer at Roswell at the relevant time.

cda:

I have no doubt that Marcel was photographed with the real debris, but that does NOT mean it was among the photos taken by reporters and shown to the public! Presumably, those came a bit later, after a substitution was made. I'm sure this was discussed before. KDR noted Marcel stated the (publicly known) photos do not depict him with the real debris. A switch HAD to have occurred. Marcel would've had to be retarded to mistake obvious balloon junk for exotic debris, and you don't get to be a Major, and intelligence officer, by being retarded.
No, the notion of a "crash" at Roswell existed LONG before 1978. Those who have the 1966 book by Edwards can see this on page 41. An object had CRASHED and burned. Likewise, Roswell was clearly considered ET before 1978. Friedman first heard about Marcel when someone told him he had handled "flying saucer pieces." For many years before 1978, flying saucers were equated with ET.

cda said...

Nitram:

"So, we can now be fairly certain that Cavitt knew the answer, but kept it all secret for some reason."

You are "fairly certain" Cavitt knew the answer, are you?

I am equally certain he knew nothing of the sort, and am doubtful if he was even present or involved in the affair at all.

I also suggest you may be writing tongue-in-cheek. A very tempting thing to do when discussing Roswell.

And yes, Marcel certainly DID initially say one of those damned photos showed the actual debris, but the others only showed substituted debris. Later, Kevin insisted ALL showed the substituted stuff. (You see the real stuff was far too secret to ever be shown to the public). As our anonymous contributor says: all the said photos show the same debris. Whether it was launched from Alamogordo or Alpha Centauri, alas we know not.

james tankersley said...

I dont believe Jessie Marcel SR lied or made up anything about his involvement in the Roswell UFO crash at all and now, thanks to the fact that virtually all the original eyewitnesses that knew what happened at Roswell are now dead and can not be cross examined it is easy to sit there and say he exagerated his role in the events since he cant defend himself, and i am not impressed at all by all the skeptics saying all this one tiny bit without iron clad proof that would support these claims. I also highly doubt that he would write anything about what he knew about the UFO crash in a journal or diary because he has admitted time and time again that he was part of the cover up as it happened and so it was deemed as a HIGHLY CLASSIFIED national security issue that could not be revealed to the public no matter what the circumstances are since at first the military did not know what the hell they were dealing with, and understandably so! He had to follow those orders as an intelligence officer and soldier serving his country.

Lance said...

Can we perhaps agree that if:

- The material in the office was switched.

Then mogul goes out the window? Can you at least concede this?

I will concede that if the material shown in the photos is the same material found then there is no cover up...

===

Ok...not sure of the value of that.

As you see above, the dyed in the wool believers above dishonestly state their assertions as fact. John Steiger seems particularly duplicitous.

In trying to pretend that the Roswell case (as saucer nuts love it) is based on anything other that distant memories, he brings up the following.

1. Sleppy's silly claim about the teletype. Where is the 1947 evidence for that?
2. Bill Brazel's Jr'.s tale. Where is the 1947 evidence for that?
3. The gouge in the ground. Where is the 1947 evidence for that?
4. Heightened security at the base and cordoned off roads. Where is the 1947 evidence for that?
Etc. Etc.

The sad state of affairs is that UFO buffs cannot understand the difference between someone CLAIMING something and the the establishment of the truth of that claim with real evidence.

As long as it supports their tawdry religion, of course. Disconfirming evidence, they bend over backwards to discredit somehow.

James Tankersley piously preaches how he doesn't believe Saint Jesse ever lied. Praise Saucer Jesus! Which of Jesse's stories about the debris in the photos was the true and holy truth then, James? You do realize he told at least 4 different tales--tales that discredit each other?. I'm sure you will choose best one.



Best,

Lance

Lorrie Causey said...

Brian Bell: ..what if an authenticated part of Jesse Marcel's diary/papers contained an explicit reference to the "fact" of a crashed saucer and it's dead crew; would you then consider that as a "smoking gun" and then become a UFO believer...:)...?

cda said...

09RJA and Starman:

I request you to look at the first sentence of what Frank Edwards wrote about Roswell, i.e. the very first sentence of 09RJA's quote, and tell me how many falsehoods you see, and whether we should take what Edwards wrote on Roswell or ANYTHING ELSE regarding UFOs, seriously at all.

Oh and the rest of that quote is just as bad. Yet he was supposed to be a famed journalist and broadcaster. "Serious Business" eh? Sure!

Tim Printy said...

For those who still question if Marcel stated that the newsmen saw the debris, just watch UFOs are real. At time 40:00 in the Youtube selection, he clearly states, "The newsmen saw very little of the material...very small portion of it...." In other words, the material he recovered was in the photographs (just not all of it)! This mirrors where he was quoted in "The Roswell incident" that he was photographed with the actual debris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJz6M8WEU20

KRandle said...

Tim -

You're absolutely right about what Marcel said in that film... which is obviously inaccurate, meaning that the debris in Ramey's office was a weather balloon and rawin radar target.

However...

Marcel, when shown those pictures in The Roswell Incident, told WWL-TV reporter Johnny Mann that "That wasn't the stuff I found."

On the shooting script for what I believe is the UFO's Are Real documentary, it says that they are looking at the Berlitz and Moore book. It says:

"I talk about book I'm showing him." (Either the producer or director).

Then the description "Book in Jesse's lap showing Warrant Officer he discusses borders present. (I believe borders refers to the way the picture had been cropped.)

Then the question, "This is not the material you found?"

Marcel. "Definitely not."

Yes, I know the question was leading. Yes, I know that Marcel sometimes had trouble with exaggerations. Yes, I know that we have contradictory statements here. I present this only so that the full spectrum of information is available.

Tim Printy said...

Kevin,
Based on what he said in the film can we actually prove what he said was accurate? You act as if it was 100% proven, which you cannot do. You quote a Mann interview but was this recorded? If so, where can it be found? Even if this is exactly what Marcel stated to Mann, I could easily make the argument that Marcel decided to change his story instead of looking silly in front of a reporter. Isn't that a possible interpretation of events or can you prove that is not the case? Of course, we also have Marcel supposedly telling the press in 1947 that what was seen in the photographs was what he picked up at the ranch (see Fort Worth star telegram article of July 9). Then there is Marcel's statement to Corley, where he stated that the debris was in the photograph but beneath the brown paper wrapping! I don't know about you but there doesn't look like there is anything beneath the paper at all. Again, this can be interpreted as Marcel trying to explain his belief that he was photographed with some of the debris.

John Steiger said...

Lance: The 1947 evidence for the Roswell ET that you deny without basis for doing so is found in the literature of authors such Dr. Randle and others.

If anyone is "particularly duplicitous" re: Roswell, it is you.

Lance said...

John Steiger, I suspect that the first person who would disagree with you is Kevin. But that is because he is honest (a trait you ought to look into).

KRandle said...

Tim -

I think you missed my point. You provided quotes attributed to Marcel that suggest the material in Ramey's office was the material he brought from Roswell. If that is true, then the answer is a balloon and rawin and we all go home. I pointed out that he is on the record saying just the opposite, which is that the material was not what he brought from Roswell.

You mentioned Corley's interview in which he said the real material was hidden under the butcher's paper on Ramey's floor, which, I think we all agree is probably not true.

I could argue that the quotes attributed to him in the newspaper the next day were lifted from an 8th Air Force press release but won't because I have no evidence for it...

My real point is that we can argue about his all day but the bottom line is that I have quotes that prove one thing and you have quotes that prove something else. All the quotes are from Marcel, so I guess you just pick one side of the fence. I just wanted it known that there was a variety of quotes to choose from and that all should be acknowledged.

Oh, and Johnny Mann had recorded the Marcel interview. It was part of a week long series that he had done for WWL-TV in the early 1990s and included a visit with Hicks and Parker. At that time Mann believed their story to be the important one and saved those tapes. Those with Marcel, except for just a few minutes have been lost.

But here is the take away from this. Marcel said both things and both can't be right. The truth may lie somewhere in the middle, or at one end of the spectrum. I guess you just pay you money and pick your side. Without being more specific, I have a side and I don't believe that it will make some people very happy.

Nitram Ang said...

Lorrie Causey wrote

"if an authenticated part of Jesse Marcel's diary/papers contained an explicit reference to the "fact" of a crashed saucer and it's dead crew; would you then consider that as a "smoking gun"..."

Considering that, according to Marcel Jnr, Jesse never mentioned anything about bodies then you would have to think the diaries/papers are forgeries.


Lance

You simply don't seem to understand that because someone doesn't accept/believe the (ever changing) airforce explanation doesn't automatically make them a "crazy saucer nut".

Nitram Ang said...

Tim Printy wrote:

"Of course, we also have Marcel supposedly telling the press in 1947 that what was seen in the photographs was what he picked up at the ranch (see Fort Worth star telegram article of July 9). Then there is Marcel's statement to Corley, where he stated that the debris was in the photograph but beneath the brown paper wrapping! I don't know about you but there doesn't look like there is anything beneath the paper at all."

As already written, there are a number of contradictory statements made by Marcel.
I have discussed the matter with KR on a number of occasions and like me, he agrees that it is ridiculous that the stuff could have been hidden by Marcel behind the paper wrapping.

But Marcel of course has also stated on the record that the material was switched.
I personally find this to be the most likely explanation.
Marcel of course would have recognised the material for what it was...

It has been explained at length why the mogul explanation doesn't work by a number of people who comment here regularly.
Dealing with Cavitt, he said he recognized the material immediately, but neglected to tell anyone. He also stated that he wasn't in Roswell at the time of the crash.

As our blog editor would say "the real point is that we can argue about this all day but the bottom line is that I have quotes that prove one thing and also have quotes that prove something else. All the quotes are from Cavitt, so I guess you just pick one side of the fence. I also want it known that there are a variety of quotes to choose from and that all should be acknowledged."

Sadly many of the "investigators" who post here simply choose to ignore the comments that don't fit with their world view.

My own opinion is that both the ET and mogul explanations are highly unlikely to be correct.

There is some strong indications however that what was recovered at Roswell was not mundane and accordingly the fact that there is no plausible terrestrial explanation gives hope to the possibility of something new...

Perhaps you might like to consider this question - if it can be shown that the wording in the memo is "victims of the wreck" then what do you think it refers to?
In addition if it can be proven that there was no mogul material recovered on the foster ranch then what do you think the material was?

Finally Tim, I do enjoy looking at your monthly publication, particularly the "Roswell corner, from time to time and I wish you continued success with your work.

Kindest regards
Nitram.

Mr. Sweepy! said...

One question about Roswell that I never heard about. This is, Did Marcel or any of the military people talk with you about security personal in 1947? There was one interview with Frankie Rowe that happened maybe 15 years ago that she talked about being threatened with "burial in the desert" and she was crying that was very real to me. We heard or read other stories about the cover-up agents in Roswell but next to nothing about who they are have ever come to life. Any stories about this people you can share with us about?

Mr. Sweepy

starman said...

cda:

We're well aware of the errors in Edwards's account (although a rancher did notify a sheriff, who called the military). At the time people were still unwilling to discuss the case, so Edwards had little information. In addition, KDR said he wrote from memory. Nevertheless his account clearly shows that Roswell DID involve a CRASH and WAS considered ET (or it wouldn't have been included in a work on flying saucers).

cda said...

I'll repeat something I have said before (probably to Nitram's chagrin). It is this:

Some of the witnesses, including Marcel, uttered remarks like: "yeah, this stuff was like nothing on earth, it came from an extra-terrestrial vehicle".

My immediate question to all of them, had I been lucky enough to speak to them, would be:

"How do YOU know what an ET vehicle looks like? Are such vehicles known to science? Where have you got the idea that ET vehicles are visiting our planet at all?"

What I am saying is that these witnesses NEVER suspected any ET vehicle in 1947. It never entered their heads. They only got the idea planted in their minds during the years from c. 1978 onwards, either by the interviewers or by reading books, hearing gossip or watching TV shows on UFOs.

So if Marcel, or anyone else, claimed they handled debris from an ET craft, they simply do not know what they are talking about. Naturally, the rest of their testimony is highly suspect because of this.

cda said...

Starman:

"Nevertheless his account clearly shows that Roswell DID involve a CRASH and WAS considered ET (or it wouldn't have been included in a work on flying saucers)."

All this means is that Edwards, an ET fanatic, decided the incident was a 'crash' and was considered ET (again by Edwards). So all you have dug up is that a certain ET enthusiast, writing in 1965/66, attached an ET dimension to a mundane event involving the landing and recovery of a light instrument. I repeat: there was NO mention of a crash in 1947. This only came decades afterwards, either in Edwards's book or in the Berlitz/Moore book. Take your pick. But please, do not try and persuade us that either ETs or a crash were being talked about in 1947.

Of course, I can't read people's minds, but I am pretty certain nobody even thought of such a possibility at the time.

starman said...

Nitram Ang wrote:

"My own opinion is that both the ET and mogul explanations are highly unlikely to be correct.

There are strong indications however that what was recovered at Roswell was not mundane and accordingly the fact that there is no plausible terrestrial explanation gives hope to the possibility of something new."

If there is "no plausible terrestrial explanation" what else could it have been but ET? The holy ghost or something? :) "No plausible terrestrial explanation" (for something clearly artificial) implies something NOT of this Earth, or an alien civilization.

09rja said...

"What I am saying is that these witnesses NEVER suspected any ET vehicle in 1947. It never entered their heads. They only got the idea planted in their minds during the years from c. 1978 onwards, either by the interviewers or by reading books, hearing gossip or watching TV shows on UFOs.~CDA
------
I think for most that is probably true.....but according to at least one witness (i.e. Irving Newton), Marcel (right there in General Ramey's office) tried to convince him that it was extraterrestrial. And apparently Marcel believed that for the rest of his life. Indeed Marcel did influence others to think that: The radio station manager that first mentioned Marcel to Stanton Friedman noted the fact Marcel thought it was a ET craft. The rest is history. (Right or wrong.)

Nitram Ang said...

Hello Starman

You have a point of course, however I am still not convinced of anything...

Let us assume there is life on other planets (not accepted)then we also have to assume that they have somehow travelled many light years to get here (also not accepted).

I would feel more certain if I had proof that:

1. There was a "second site"...
2. There were "dead bodies" at that site and maybe
3. The Ramey memo does say "victims of the wreck".

I am not 100% convinced of any of the three points above.

Regards
Nitram

james tankersley said...

I believe Jessie Marcel knew that the wreckage from that UFO was unusual since he could not identify the material or what kind of craft it came off of because he was trained to know what balloons, aircraft, radar reflectors and so on would look like so he had to make that assumption as a strong possibility like it or not! The wreckage found clearly was not debris that would come off any special top secret balloon no matter how special that type of balloon was! Even his son Jessie could not find any positive match of any wreckage that would explain it in conventional terms while he too was in the military and he searched and examined all types of balloons, aircraft, missiles, bombs, you name it while he was serving as well. i know some of you skeptics will say Jessie JR was only 11 years old when his father showed him the UFO wreckage so he would not be a reliable witness, but it must be remembered that he was put under hypnosis to better recall what exactly happened and so a clearer picture would develop from doing that.

starman said...

Hello Nitram Ang,

You should see some of Morrison's posts in the paracast. While neither ET life nor interstellar travel are verified (as far as we laymen know) the ETH makes certain predictions which have been verified. It predicts, for example, that exoplanets exist and are common.

Even if you dismiss stories of a second site and associated bodies, the highly unusual nature of debris from the Foster ranch is highly suggestive of (or indicative of) a civilization beyond the level of anything terrestrial, hence ET.
Btw the fact that DEBRIS (whatever its origin) was found also suggests a crash....even if the term wasn't used at the time.

Tim Printy said...

Sorry to beat a dead horse again Kevin but did I read correctly that you don't have any recording/transcript of these quotes by Marcel to Mann? Exactly where do these Marcel statements you are using come from then? Are they second hand from Mann? If so, don't we run into the problem of using hearsay as a primary source? If you do have any transcripts or tapes, is it possible that you can post them on your blog or is there a copyright problem with sharing them?

KRandle said...

Yes, Tim, it really is a dead horse...

However...

Mann had the recordings, but they are now gone. Mann's statements were confirmed the cameraman who was there and heard them... and Marcel's son said that Jesse Sr. had told him the same thing.

To me, this is really a nonissue because of the lack of primary source material. I had been making the point, which seems to be lost to many, that there are many quotes attributed to Marcel and it is up to the individual to assign a weight to them. I wasn't advocating a position, merely reminding others as to the situation, which, BTW, was laid out in Roswell in the 21st century.

09rja said...

""I believe Jessie Marcel knew that the wreckage from that UFO was unusual since he could not identify the material or what kind of craft it came off of because he was trained to know what balloons, aircraft, radar reflectors and so on would look like...~james tankersley
-------
When did he receive such training and what did it consist of?

Paul Young said...

cda...

You have said (many, many times on this blog) that secrets can't be kept for 70 years. I highlighted the Whitechapel Murder's previously, but here's some light reading for you.... when you get a minute to drag yourself away from ET related blogs and websites.
(a strange hobby for someone who claims to not believe they even exist.)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/18/foreign-office-historic-files-secret-archive

Some key points here.
Though the general rule is that secret files should be released after 30 years ..."unless the department has received permission from the lord chancellor to hold them for longer.".
This absolutely backs up the claim that, so long as the political will prevails, files can be kept under wraps indefinitely.

"The secret archive is also beyond the reach of the Freedom of Information Act."

...and one part of the article that may interest you is the bit which mentions some files go back to the Crimean War, 1856.

Secrets can't be kept secret for 70 years? pffft

Paul Young said...

I don't know how many times Marcel was interviewed in the years after he first went public in 1978
...but how many times did he say (when interviewed) the debris in Ramey's office was switched
...and how many times (when interviewed) did he say the debris in Ramey's office is exactly what he collected from Foster Ranch?

I mean, he must have been mithered for an interview many times in those eight years.

If it was just the one interview that he said it, out of a load of other interviews...is it not just possible he was having a "senior moment"? (I'm 55 and I can tell you that i have em.)

I also wonder if this was one of his later interviews?
He was a very poorly man toward the end and (I don't know) but ...was he being treated with Chemotherapy or Radiotherapy. Could battling the dreaded "C" mean he might ramble in a certain interview if he was having a bad day?

cda said...

09RJA:

You quote me correctly, but then quote a statement from Irving Newton (made post-1978) on what Marcel told him in Ramey's office in 1947.

This is the very thing that reinforces my contention of the complete lack of evidence of ET thoughts or testimony in 1947. The VERY FACT that Newton is, 30+ years later, recalling a conversation from '47, possibly accurately, possibly not, cannot be taken as true evidence from 1947.

The ONLY way to get around this would be to locate a genuine written record, or tape recording, taken at the time, of someone's thoughts or sayings at that time. Quoting someone's memory of what happened decades earlier merely adds to the vast amount of (in fact the whole of) the historical testimony involved in the Roswell affair.


James Tankersley:

Do you really believe the evidence of Jesse Marcel jr, obtained under hypnosis, is worth anything at all? I doubt even Kevin takes it seriously. But this was only obtained 30 to 40 years later (!), yet you place great reliance on it. Amazing!

09rja said...

"The ONLY way to get around this would be to locate a genuine written record, or tape recording, taken at the time, of someone's thoughts or sayings at that time. Quoting someone's memory of what happened decades earlier merely adds to the vast amount of (in fact the whole of) the historical testimony involved in the Roswell affair.~CDA
---------

I hear you CDA. I was just thinking out loud on how this legend got started. And I think a big part of it is what Marcel thought he found. (And what a retired nuclear physicist did with that.)

John Steiger said...

cda: Mac Brazel genunely knew he was held prisoner at RAAF in early July 1947, Frankie Rowe genuinely knew herself and family were threatened with death by miltary personnel in this same timeframe, and many, many witnesses genuinely handled "memory metal" which was unknown on Planet Earth then or now.

Although none of this may be written down contemporaneous to 1947, such lacking does not make these witnesses' testimony untrue. Your objections are unfounded.

Nitram Ang said...

Paul Young wrote:

"I don't know how many times Marcel was interviewed in the years after he first went public in 1978
...but how many times did he say (when interviewed) the debris in Ramey's office was switched
...and how many times (when interviewed) did he say the debris in Ramey's office is exactly what he collected from Foster Ranch?

I mean, he must have been mithered for an interview many times in those eight years.

If it was just the one interview that he said it, out of a load of other interviews...is it not just possible he was having a "senior moment"?"

Kevin - could you give your take on this please? As someone who has met with the Marcel's you are more qualified that most I guess to answer Paul's query...

I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
Thank you.

Regards
Nitram

james tankersley said...

09RJA.......ARMY AIR FORCES TRAINING COMMAND was where Jessie Marcel SR completed his training of advanced radar technology while he was serving as an intelligence officer of the 509th bomb group. There is no reason whatsoever lame balloon wreckage and radar targets would have fooled him. His radar school diploma can be seen in the book his son Jessie JR wrote before he passed away called THE ROSWELL LEGACY. I highly recommend you look at that book for more of that kind of information as it may answer other questions you may have.cda.... of course hypnosis is amazing as it has been used and shown to work very well in a lot of instances by a great many people as it will make you remember a lot of forgotten memories so there is no reason it would not work here, otherwise it would not still be in use! I also find it very compelling Frank Edwards book FLYING SAUCERS SERIOUS BUSINESS mentions a road cordon blocking others from going to the Roswell crash site as nobody should have even mentioned that during that time period when the military covered the UFO crash up immediately after they found the wreckage on July 1947 ( Frank Edwards book was written in 1966). Somebody had to reveal that to Frank probably from the military who knew that UFO crashed otherwise he should have never known that since the crash was highly classified!

cda said...

Paul:

I put it to you that some 'secrets' are a bit, i.e. a lot, different from other 'secrets'.

Do you really suppose that the 'Jack the Ripper' murders fall into the same category as a known ET visit to Earth (if it happened)?

Do you really suppose, when scientists the world over have been looking for, and maybe even hoping to discover, ET life for several centuries, that a few select military guys of just one country know this secret and have kept it from the rest of the world for 70 years?

If your answer is 'yes' than you are clearly living on a different planet from me.

Can't you see that such a notion is preposterous, and that this is the whole essence of why Roswell was not, repeat not, an ET event? The ONLY reason the great, alleged 'Roswell file' is still top secret is because certain writers keep insisting it is, not because such a file ever existed. Dammit, what if the 'crash' recurred somewhere else, maybe in Europe? I suppose the EU Commission would then hush it up, if they could!

Yes, some secrets can be kept for 1000 years maybe. So what? These are the secrets nobody cares about or is interested in.

BTW, I do not believe the hidden Whitechapel files contain anything definitively pointing to the Ripper's identity, even if the said person had royal connections (which again is just more supposition).

starman said...

cda wrote:

"Do you really suppose, when scientists the world over have been looking for, and maybe even hoping to discover, ET life for several centuries, that a few select military guys of just one country know this secret and have kept it from the rest of the world for 70 years?"

First, had it not leaked out to some extent, we wouldn't be discussing it now.....But more importantly, the issue is not just ET LIFE, but an SUPERIOR ALIEN CIVILIZATION, capable of arriving HERE, and doing just that.
When evidence of life was detected in a meteorite from Mars, there was no need for a coverup, because such a discovery (even had it been verified) would've had little if any bearing on our lives. It would've been a purely academic thing. An ET Roswell is FAR different. As I tried to explain before, at least twice....the key difference between ETs arriving here and other scientific discoveries is that the former is emphatically NOT just an academic matter! It has the potential to WREAK HAVOC ON PRESENT SOCIETY. There could be panic, a questioning of current beliefs, crumbling of the present power structure....
We know that governments can keep secrets for very long periods of time. The ULTRA secret, for example, was kept for 30 years after WWII, even though it was of great potential interest to millions who lived and fought in WWII, historians etc, and there wasn't even any urgent need to keep it after the war. Considering the potential impact of superior ETs, from Roswell, or wherever, the powers that be obviously have a VERY strong incentive to keep it under wraps.

09rja said...

Yes, some secrets can be kept for 1000 years maybe. So what? These are the secrets nobody cares about or is interested in.~CDA

Bingo. That's what these people don't get. Why did Daniel Ellsberg (for example) leak the Pentagon papers? (Risking jail time.) Because he thought (among other things) the people had a right to know this important info.

And not one guy who has come across this info on Roswell over the years thought it was worth leaking? Come on.

And no: the "leaks" that have happened so far don't count because they haven't proved anything. Nobody is debating if the Pentagon papers are real....we still are with MJ-12.

09rja said...

09RJA.......ARMY AIR FORCES TRAINING COMMAND was where Jessie Marcel SR completed his training of advanced radar technology while he was serving as an intelligence officer of the 509th bomb group.~james tankersley

Kevin was talking about this on Martin Willis's show the other night. (Good show by the way.) Not sure how far I trust this either. People complete training/courses all the time and still miss things. I'm not sure how intensive it was regarding all the objects that would be present on a Mogul project however. In any case, Marcel's tendency to exaggerate things cannot be ruled out as a possible explanation.

Paul Young said...

cda..."BTW, I do not believe the hidden Whitechapel files contain anything definitively pointing to the Ripper's identity, even if the said person had royal connections (which again is just more supposition).

How do you know? The files are secret.

..........

starman..."As I tried to explain before, at least twice....the key difference between ETs arriving here and other scientific discoveries is that the former is emphatically NOT just an academic matter! It has the potential to WREAK HAVOC ON PRESENT SOCIETY. There could be panic, a questioning of current beliefs, crumbling of the present power structure....

Spot on. I'd also add that if the people charged to look into the ufo problem had no real idea of the ET's agenda, (and couldn't do anything about it even if they DID know the agenda)...then that's a damned good reason not to discuss it with Joe Public.

..........

Anonymous...
"And not one guy who has come across this info on Roswell over the years thought it was worth leaking? Come on.

You obviously have never heard of a bloke called Jessie Marcell Snr

People from Roswell AAB did leak it. If no one leaked it...why are we talking about it and why have umpteen books and documentaries been made about it?

You can't protect leaks but you can protect secrets...This is why counter-intelligence was invented.
Sheridan Cavitt, old bean, was a dab hand at it.

KRandle said...

All -

For crying out loud, can we stop with the Ripper murders? It is not relevant to the topic of this post... If you want to know the truth, read Conversations...

09rja said...

We know that governments can keep secrets for very long periods of time. The ULTRA secret, for example, was kept for 30 years after WWII, even though it was of great potential interest to millions who lived and fought in WWII, historians etc, and there wasn't even any urgent need to keep it after the war.~Starman

And what did that revelation change? What did it mean after WW II was over? Let me answer that for you: pretty much nothing. Do you think info on alien visitations would be of a bit more interest than some obsolete WW II code?

And in actuality, the fact that we broke enemy codes really wasn't concealed. For example, in 1942, the Chicago Tribune printed an article that implied we had broken the Japanese naval codes by saying the navy knew in advance they were going to hit Midway. The government didn't want to prosecute because they didn't want to call more attention to the article.

09rja said...

You obviously have never heard of a bloke called Jessie Marcell Snr.~Paul Young

A guy who falsely claimed he was a pilot and attended multiple universities (from which at least one of them he claimed he earned a degree).....none of whom have a record of him?

People from Roswell AAB did leak it. If no one leaked it...why are we talking about it and why have umpteen books and documentaries been made about it?~Paul Young

Leaks that have gone nowhere.

Tim Printy said...

Marcel's course did not involve any radar reflector/radiosonde training. The record shows the course was focused on the use of the bombing radar on the B-29 (AN/APS-15). It was all about navigating, bombing, and scope interpretation using that radar. In other words, it was a user course for a specific radar. Marcel could not take that training and suddenly become an expert on all types of radar equipment.

Paul Young said...

Marcell embellished his pilot record in the years after he retired from the military seems clear.
Then again, what is a fact is that he was an intelligence officer who was sent to examine the original debris field. He was the "on the spot" investigator.

So, the reply to your ... "And not one guy who has come across this info on Roswell over the years thought it was worth leaking? ... would be; "Well for starters, the very first bleedin person who saw it, leaked it."

KRandle said...

All -

Do any of you really believe that Marcel couldn't recognize a weather balloon and a radar reflector when he saw it?

A farmer near Circleville, Ohio found one about the same time as the events near Roswell and he recognized it for what it was. He took it to the sheriff who recognized it, and it was displayed in the window of the newspaper office.

Sheridan Cavitt, according to his interview with COlonel Richard Weaver, recognized the balloon and target while standing in the field with Marcel, so, even if Marcel didn't recognize it, you would think they would have discussed it.

Tim - you know as well as I do that in military classes you often learn "nice to know information," which might not be part of the training, but are offered up because you might encounter the problem later. Do you think it is impossible for Marcel's radar classes might not have exposed him and the others to the Rawin targets?

The 509th was part of Operation Crossroads, which was the testing of atomic weapons in the Pacific in 1946. They used the Rawins as they gather the weather information. Isn't is possible that Marcel would have seen them at that time?

So, isn't it time for us to give this particular argument a rest? Unless someone has something completely different, shouldn't we all agree that it seems unlikely that Marcel didn't know what a weather balloon and Rawin target looked like?

cda said...

Paul:

Not to prolong this agonising debate (or 'investigation' as Nitram would put it), I presume it is your belief that NEVER, in any circumstances, can poor Joe Public be told that an ET race exists and has visited our planet in recent times.

This is because we might all panic if we knew. If past opinion polls are to be believed, the majority of Americans already know, or think they know, this 'truth' and don't appear to be panicking, do they?

But that's how science advances, according to the conspiracists. "We just cannot tell the people". However, we (i.e. us top military guys) can keep the secret to ourselves, because we are superior to the public and would never panic.

Boy, what an argument! So why aren't you in a state of panic right now? Why isn't Kevin, or any other ETHers?

cda said...

Kevin:

I totally agree with you about Marcel. But he said very little in 1947.

The point is that even if he did recognise the debris at the time, which seems very likely, he was ordered to transport it to Ft Worth for further examination. Once this happened, things started to get 'interesting'. Naturally, 30-35 years afterwards, his mind had turned more to UFOs and he became, shall we say, more receptive to authors and interviewers who wanted to slant the whole story towards the crash-landing of an ET craft. Also, getting a bit of publicity played its part.

Tim Printy said...

Kevin-
That is pure speculation. I spent 6 months at electronics school (communications and radar repair) with a three week course on radar operations. I then branched off to communications repair. The radar techs went to the other part of the class. However, the radar sets were there for everyone to look at and examine. They ran the radars at the school doing surface search tests. Not once did I ever hear anything about radar targets and balloons. I then spent time at a school we taught radar. I took the radar course. Once again there was no mention of balloons and radar targets. Now, you want everyone to believe that Marcel was taking a course on an airborne radar used for navigation and bombing (which was a short four week course) and they would suddenly show them a radar target used for weather measurements? You have seen the course and you know exactly what was in the course. There was no mention of using radar targets for weather observations in the course. Why would the instructors even be aware of RAWINs when their expertise lay in the bombing radar?
You are also making a big deal out of the Operation crossroads. What evidence do you have that Marcel observed the daily release of weather balloons with the targets attached? They released balloons without the targets as well. Do you have evidence that they launched these target balloons near Marcel's office/barracks/dining facility? You have to demonstrate he would have seen these events and not speculate that he might have and, therefore, knew what an ML-307 looked like.
The bottom line is that you are speculating and not producing a single fact other than Marcel was at the Kwajalein where some place on that island atoll (which is pretty big) they launched balloons with targets and that he attended a school about using the airborne radar on a B-29 (which there is no evidence that they mentioned such targets). Your claim is not based on facts and, therefore, the argument is just as strong as the claim that Marcel never saw a radar target before July 1947.

starman said...

@09rja:

Of course evidence of alien visitation would be of greater interest than a WWII code. But as I pointed out, it might be too damaging to society to reveal it.

09rja said...

Marcel's course did not involve any radar reflector/radiosonde training. The record shows the course was focused on the use of the bombing radar on the B-29 (AN/APS-15). It was all about navigating, bombing, and scope interpretation using that radar. In other words, it was a user course for a specific radar. Marcel could not take that training and suddenly become an expert on all types of radar equipment.~Tim Printy

Thanks for the info Tim.

Tim - you know as well as I do that in military classes you often learn "nice to know information," which might not be part of the training, but are offered up because you might encounter the problem later. Do you think it is impossible for Marcel's radar classes might not have exposed him and the others to the Rawin targets?~KRandle

Exposing him to it and him recognizing it later on are 2 different things. As I noted above, people complete training/courses all the time and still miss things. People sit through college classes entire semesters and get Fs. (Assuming they give those anymore.)

To use an anecdote from my own profession: I am a engineer who is licensed (as a PE/SE). To maintain our licenses, many states now require obtaining CEU/PDH hours for renewal. This means attending seminars in some cases. A few years back I went to one in Atlanta (given by ASCE). At the end we had to take a short quiz (which you (unofficially probably) got unlimited shots at). I (fortunately) got it on the first try after less than 10 minutes, so I hung around and talked to the instructor about specific problems I had seen related to the seminar. In my mind, I had decided I would stop talking once the last guy passed. Well, 30 minutes went by and 2 people still couldn't pass it.......a hour or so went by and the last guy was on his third shot. I asked the instructor: "I'm not holding you up am I?" His reply (in a whisper):"Not as long as this guy can't pass." When I left (after 1.5 hrs and counting) he still hadn't passed the thing. (He may still be down there trying to make it!) And again: we are talking a group of degreed, licensed engineers here. Not a bunch of winos.

So the point is: training doesn't guarantee anything.

Lance said...

"Do any of you really believe that Marcel couldn't recognize a weather balloon and a radar reflector when he saw it?"

Kevin, do you not understand that skeptics see this question as dishonest?

In our scenario Marcel knew the material was just junk BUT he also surmised that it might have been one of those Flying Disks which he was reading about in the paper every day (which were also composed of junk).

You may think our scenario wrong which is fine but to continuously dredge up the above question seems to indicate willful misunderstanding. It's a straw man argument--which is a fallacy.

Goddamn--I explained it above even in this thread.

Lance

KRandle said...

Tim -

Of course it was speculation but didn't you ever have a military class in which you received "nice to know" information? I remember an intelligence class in which we had the opportunity to tour an AC-130. Had no relevance to the class. It was just nice to know. I'm merely suggesting that he might not have been completely ignorant of what a rawin looked like.

Lance -

The question is not dishonest because of all the other things surrounding it including Cavitt's claim to Weaver and Ramey's order to take it all to Fort Worth. There is no reason for the trip to Fort Worth for the great reveal of the rawin and weather balloon. They could have done that in Roswell with the guys from the AP. They did it again in Alamogordo with the guys from Mogul.

09rja said...

Marcell embellished his pilot record in the years after he retired from the military seems clear.
Then again, what is a fact is that he was an intelligence officer who was sent to examine the original debris field. He was the "on the spot" investigator.

So, the reply to your ... "And not one guy who has come across this info on Roswell over the years thought it was worth leaking? ... would be; "Well for starters, the very first bleedin person who saw it, leaked it."


So you admit Marcell lied about his record yet we are supposed to trust him here? Interesting.

And again: let me know when these "leaks" prove the case. Or to put it another way: the next time you here someone debating if Iran-Contra actually happened or if the Pentagon papers are real.....you let me know ok?

09rja said...

Of course evidence of alien visitation would be of greater interest than a WWII code. But as I pointed out, it might be too damaging to society to reveal it.~Starman

Today? I find it hard to believe anyone in charge would think that. I'll give the Roswell advocates this: in 1947 it would have had fundamental changes on society and I can see that as a argument as to why it could be concealed. But they would still conceal it on that basis? Preposterous. Most people are accustomed to the idea of ETs at this point.

starman said...

@cda:

Just because those in the military, and most of the public, perhaps 70-90%, can deal with the revelation of ET without panic (or nervous breakdown) that still leaves too many others unready for disclosure. In the future, as willingness to accept the idea of ET continues to spread, things could be different. But for now, if a tenth of the population has a highly adverse reaction, the damage to society could be excessive. And as I wrote, panic is only one of the possible consequences. Even the most intelligent and composed people may draw certain conclusions at variance with what we were all taught, or certain core values of this culture. They may question the legitimacy of present authority. I don't think the powers that be would want that.

Paul Young said...

cda... ...I presume it is your belief that NEVER, in any circumstances, can poor Joe Public be told that an ET race exists and has visited our planet in recent times.

Here's my take on it. Currently, I can't see any circumstances where previous events would be "disclosed" voluntarily. My own opinion is that they have managed to ride out Roswell. The story resurfaced too late. Everyone who matters is dead and too many hoaxes/chancers got in on the act and muddied the waters.
UK govt refuse to even talk about Rendlesham.

I reckon it's going to take a future event that can't possibly be denied. I'm talking either a crash with not just wreckage of a ufo but bodies too, in some heavily built-up area with hundreds and hundreds of witnesses...or the ET's actually "out themselves" by just making an obvious gesture. (The landing on the White House lawn/Bucks House/Red Square scenario.)

I think we both would agree that a Phoenix Lights/Stephenville type event wouldn't cut the mustard. There's just too much new, domestically produced, high-tec secret hardware flying about these days that, even it were a real ET vehicle,...it would be explained away as a terrestrially made proto-type...
...and no video/photograph is ever going to convince anyone any more, even if it were a real ET vehicle, (me included), because of how simple they are to fake.

The short answer to your question is "NO, they won't tell Joe Public (yet) because they don't need to."

Paul Young said...

Anonymous..."So you admit Marcell lied about his record yet we are supposed to trust him here?"

There are enough people to back up Marcel's take on Roswell to believe he was telling the truth. And the incredible response to the event from the US govt/military, starting from day one, till now...suggests something extraordinary happened there. The phrase "don't throw out the baby with the bath water" comes to mind here"

And, as I have shown. Secrets can be kept secret for donkeys years...even if "leaks" can't. And if you don't believe me, file a FOIA on (how can I say this without KR shouting at me again) the events in East London during the summer/autumn 1888...and let's see how far you get.

Anonymous...I'll give the Roswell advocates this: in 1947 it would have had fundamental changes on society and I can see that as a argument as to why it could be concealed. But they would still conceal it on that basis?

If they know little more today than they did in 1947 on who they are...and what's their agenda, then yes.

Paul Young said...

Lancelot...

"In our scenario Marcel knew the material was just junk BUT he also surmised that it might have been one of those Flying Disks which he was reading about in the paper every day (which were also composed of junk)."

OK. Under your scenario,...If Marcell had been reading about those "flying disks in the paper every day", then he would also have read that they were ALREADY being associated with ET's immediately after Kenneth Arnold reported his sighting.
Arnold also estimated that what he saw could have been travelling at up to 1700 MPH.

So if Marcell "surmised" that what he found might be one of those flying disc that "he had been reading about"...then it follows that he was also surmising that it might be ET and it might be able to fly at 1700 MPH

Do you honestly think that Marcell believed that the heap of junk in Ramey's office could fly at 1700 MPH???

Of course not! And that's why the real debris HAD to have been switched.
Marcel, (even if he had had his brain removed) wouldn't...COULDN'T... confuse that pile of trash with something from another planet that could travel at super-sonic speed.

KRandle said...

I want to make two points here. One not so important and the other sort of a comment on the direction the commentary has taken.

First, Jesse Marcel, Sr. didn't say he was a pilot, but said he had flown as one, which is am important distinction. I can say, without fear of contradiction, that I flew as a door gunner in Vietnam. As a member of an aviation unit, I filled in at that slot because of circumstances. I think all of us, in the unit flew as door gunners at one time or another, so Marcel's claim of flying as a pilot in a bomber group is not without precedence.

BUT... his claim of 3000 hours as a pilot is excessive. I had a full combat tour as a pilot and only managed about 1200 hours. And in my three years on active duty at that time, probably only acquired about 1600 hours total, and I was a pilot, not just getting stick time... so, his 3000 hours seems to be quite the exaggeration.

Second, the point here was to announce that documentation from Jesse Marcel, Sr. had been found and there were indications of a journal with that material. If that journal covers his time in Roswell, that will be an important find, regardless of what it says, or doesn't say. It will be only the second time that something like that has appeared. It is the reason I posted the article about Ruth Barnett's diary. We need to wait to see what it says.

My other comments were made to suggest that we don't have a totally black and white situation with some of this. We can't know everything that was said in Marcel's radar classes. While it is true that the syllabus contained nothing about radar reflectors and te like, we don't know that someone might not have brought it up. While I was in the Officer's Advance Course in Military Police, we had a long discussion about the invasion of Normandy, which, had nothing to do with the class. I'm not saying it was discussed, only that it might have been.

The release of the records that are being reviewed by the Marcel family now may shed some light on the discussion. As I say, it seems that we find ourselves in the weeds at the moment. I hope this new material will help us understand what happened back then.