Did Herbert Dick Lie about Being on the Plains of San Agustin?
Blogger's note: For some bizarre reason this controversy has erupted again. This is a repost of a posting made a couple of years ago about it. The important point is that I am the only researcher to actually speak with Herbert Dick and I know what he said. Not once did he "categorically lie" about being on the Plains of San Agustin. He confirmed he had been working there in July 1947 but he wasn't sure when he arrived. Ironically, the letter found by Art Campbell, putting Dick on the Plains on July 1, argues against the idea of a UFO crash. We are today, right where we were a couple of years ago. Barney Barnett is the only known witness. Those mentioning the crash on the Plains, such as the Vern and Jean Maltais heard the story from Barnett but didn't see anything themselves. So, once again, is what my research has provided that includes my recovery of the Ruth Barnett diary courtesy of Alice Knight, my interviews with the men who worked the Plains in July 1947, and Tom Carey and Don Schmitt's personal research into this. The truth of the matter is that Herbert Dick did not lie.
A fellow identifying himself as Lemurian is often commenting here but most of those comments don’t see the light of day. That’s because they’re just nasty and often appended to the wrong posting. It’s as if he just clicks on one and then writes whatever moves him regardless of the topic. I delete them because they are nasty and inappropriate. Recently, however, he did provide a comment that wasn’t nasty, only inappropriate. He suggested that we all access a website that contained information about the Barney Barnett aspect of the Roswell case. You can access that story here:
https://www.ufoexplorations.com/other-roswell-crash-secret-of-plain
While the story is interesting, it is also somewhat misleading, and it is filled with misinformation. Please note here that I said “Misinformation,” rather than “Disinformation.” There is a difference.
Rather than go through this one segment at a time, I’ll just make a few general comments. First, there are no other first-hand witnesses to the Barnett tale. The archaeologists have never been found and the Gerald Anderson story, sometimes used to bolster the case, is a hoax. Anderson is little more than a footnote in the overall picture. He destroyed his own credibility by lying about his Naval career and forging a number of documents. For those interested you can read about it here (You’ll need to scroll down a bit to find the relevant segment:
http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2020/08/stan-friedman-vs-philip-klass-whats.html
I spoke with Fleck Danley, who was instrumental in providing a date for the Plains of San Agustin crash that Barnett had discussed. It was clear to me, that Danley had no real idea of when the alleged discussion with Barnett took place. Danley was pushed into agreeing with the July 1947 date by Bill Moore so that there would be a tale of alien bodies for his book, The Roswell Incident. Without Barnett, they had only stories of strange metal and the Army’s efforts to recover the debris and change the narrative.
Barnett’s wife, Ruth, kept a diary for 1947. It was, apparently, the only year in which she did that. I was able to obtain the diary from Alice Knight, Barnett’s niece, so that we might copy it. There is no mention of any event on the Plains that suggest Barnett was involved in anything unusual or strange. In fact, the only date in the diary that works, meaning that Barnett was out of his office and over in the area of the Plains to see the crashed saucer is on July 2, 1947. If we follow the conventional wisdom, that is a day too early because the Roswell crash took place later.
Although the counterargument is that Barnett wouldn’t have shared this startling information with his wife so we wouldn’t read about in the diary, there are no indications of anything unusual happening at the time. Barney didn’t come home upset, didn’t suggest anything out of the ordinary. Just that he’d been out of the office that day. Later, however, we see that Barnett told many people the story of crash including friends and family. You can read about this aspect of the case in Roswell in the 21st Century. I will note here that no one has ever found a document in which any of that was discussed. You would think that someone would have written something that would provide a little corroboration in the proper time frame. Instead, all we have are memories that were decades old when they were finally discussed and Barnett had been dead for those decades.
There is one interesting point here. Although nearly everyone who discusses the story places it on the Plains of San Agustin, in reality, according to Jean Maltais, Barnett’s description was somewhat vague about the location. She only mentioned “the flats,” which could mean any number of places in New Mexico. Most ignore this minor glitch in the tale to focus on the Plains.
But let’s get to the meat of this claim. Tony Bragalia wrote about Dr. Herbert Dick, “While considering various archaeologists, researchers uncovered Harvard-trained Dr Herbert Dick. Dick was a noted archaeologist who passed away in 1992. Some years before his death however, he was located and questioned. Dick categorically denied that he had ever worked around the Plains of San Augustin region in July of 1947 (highlight added). Dick had told researchers he had not been there, telling one of them, "If I knew anything I would have told you." One of his dig party, Jeff Morris, also denied it. These denials were reported in early 1990's issues of the publication IUR – International UFO Reporter and elsewhere.”
Much of this is inaccurate. I did talk to Herbert Dick about this and rather than “categorically [denying] that he had ever worked about the Plains of San Augustin (sic),” the truth is that he wasn’t sure exactly when he arrived there in July 1947. What he denied was that he had seen any sort of a UFO crash retrieval operation on the Plains. This was not reported in the IUR as claimed.
Dick told me (not one of them) that if he knew anything about this, he’d tell me. What is important here that another member of his team denied that “it,” meaning, here, I suppose, that they had seen nothing suggesting a flying saucer crash. This was not reported in the IUR.
Although Bragalia wrote, “It turns out though that Dick had lied [highlight added] to these researchers when he was interviewed by them. In 2006 a revealing letter was uncovered by researcher Art Campbell. Campbell has been active in the UFO field for decades, including with NICAP. He is the author of "UFO Crash at San Augustin" and maintains the UFO Crash Book website. The documents that he discovered confirm that Dick had not told the truth. Dick was in fact at the Plains at the very time that he said that he was not.” As we have seen, Dick had told me he was on the Plains in July 1947, he just wasn’t sure exactly when he arrived.
Bragalia went even further, when he wrote, “A thorough search of records finds that no other group of archaeologists were working on the Plains in early July of 1947 except Herbert Dick and party – and Dick lied that [highlight added] he was even there. Lies are used [highlight added] to cover up the truth by those who wish to evade it. To have ever spoken of the event, Dick may have felt that he could have risked a security breach, his own professional advancement, future professional credibility, award of grant monies or – later in life – damage to his impressive professional legacy.”
But Dick didn’t lie. In an interview I conducted on June 23, 1991, Dick told me that he had worked in the area called Bat Cave on the southeastern edge of the Plains in 1947. He just wasn’t sure exactly when he arrived. The letters and notes found by Art Campbell, showed that he had arrived in time to have seen the crash, had it taken place on July 2, and would have been in a position to see the recovery operation in the days that followed, had there been one.
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Don Schmitt at one of the alleged Plains of San Agustin crash sites. The Bat Cave is across the Plains in the mountains seen behind Don. |
The point is that Bragalia’s speculations about Dick are not borne out in the interview I conducted with the man. According to Bragalia himself, he was using information provided by Campbell and the source mentioned, the International UFO Reporter, does not contain this information. Instead, it comes from Art Campbell’s analysis of the situation which is highly speculative. Campbell mentioned a paper found in The Magdalena Fact Book. This was a document that I created for the single meeting in Chicago to discuss the problems with the Plains of San Agustin tale. The book was created for the meeting, there were only five copies and I have one of them. I’m surprised that Campbell had seen a copy of it and can only guess that it was Friedman who showed it to him.
The real point here is that the information about Dick’s involvement, that he lied repeatedly about what he was doing and where he was, is inaccurate. Dick wasn’t confused. He had forgotten the exact date he arrived. He was quite candid in his conversation with me about where he was and what he was doing. What Dick’s statements do, corroborated by the documentation from by Campbell, is destroy the remaining threads of the Gerald Anderson claims of what he had seen on the Plains, and calls into question that Barnett saw anything there in the summer of 1947.
Dick denied the involvement because there was no involvement. I can say this with confidence because I talked to the man. I don’t have to rely on what others have said or written. I have the first-hand source, that trumps all the second and third-hand reports and all the speculation that permeates Bragalia’s article.
Bragalia’s analysis here is more of the same sort of over-the-top rhetoric we’ve seen before. He has taken some poorly researched information and created a scenario in his mind that fits into his theory. He writes in a fashion that suggests he knows what is going on, but a careful reading and an examination of all the facts, including my interview with Dick, show the flaws in his theory. He even cites a source that doesn’t exist.
One more thing for those of you of a conspiratorial mindset. According to Dick, he knew Winfred Buskirk (Anderson’s archaeologist on the Plains) in the 1940s. Since both were working on their PhDs at the time, and both were in New Mexico (well, Buskirk was working in Arizona in the summer of 1947, he lived in Albuquerque), it is not surprising. I just thought I’d mention it to stir the pot and before someone creates another whole scenario about government secrecy and lying anthropologists.
Quote: "The important point is that I am the only researcher to actually speak with Herbert Dick and I know what he said."
ReplyDeleteIs Kevin Randle lying in this article about supposedly speaking to Herbert Dick? :D :D :D
I suppose one could argue July 2, 1947 wasn't too early because there might've been two crashes, one on the Plains of San Agustin on July 2 and then another near Roswell a few days later. But I don't buy it. The crash on the Plains is a myth, one of many researchers have dealt with.
ReplyDeleteLemurian -
ReplyDeleteOnce again, you make an offensive comment, which is your nature. However, I have the tape and the transcript. I spoke to Dick and I guess you didn't. You lose.
Linţă Petruţ-Valentin
ReplyDelete2 days ago
It is ridiculous to deny Jesse Marcel's testimony! Without the testimony of Jesse Marcel, we would not know anything about Roswell today. Kevin has little left and he will deny all the witnesses from Roswell. Jesse Marcel had other confessions (to Linda Corley and Calvin Parker) about which Kevin does not mention anything on his blog. Why?
Let's not forget that Jesse Marcel made other statements about which Kevin doesn't want to say anything at all. Kevin only talks about what suits him and about the things that support his statements. Why doesn't he say anything about Jesse Marcel's accounts to Linda Corley (with the extraterrestrial writing) or to Calvin Parker (about the fact that he hid a piece of the metal recovered at Roswell in the boiler lid at home)?
Jesse Marcel told to Calvin Parker that he stole a piece of metal from the Roswell crash that he hid in the boiler lid of his house. Why didn't Kevin investigate anything about this?
Outstanding article Kevin. It was great to spend some time with you in Roswell, all the best!
ReplyDeleteLinta Petrut-Valentin -
ReplyDeleteInadvertently deleted your comment but managed to recover it.
Don't know what you mean about denying Marcel's testimony... There are problems with it such as his claim to have received five Air Medals for shooting down five enemy aircraft. He was awarded two Air Medals, neither for shooting down an enemy aircraft. The Army Air Forces kept records of everyone who had downed enemy aircraft including enlisted soldiers and non-rated personnel. Marcel's name does not appear in those records.
I have reference Linda Corley's work in my books, I have met and spoken to Corley and her works is important. Read it again, especially the part about Marcel preforming surgery while taking instructions from a doctor given over the radio. Look at Viaud Marcel's reaction to that tale.
Jesse Marcel, Sr. died in 1986 and I'm not sure that he ever spoke with Calvin Parker. You might want to check the source on that. I'm working from memory here and might be wrong, but I need a source before I attempt to chase this down.
I will note that there was a story that some small bits of the debris, from the box that Marcel brought home had been swept out the kitchen door (or in the alternative, Marcel hid a piece under a concrete slab that had been poured in his backyard). Don and I met with the owners of the home years ago, with the idea of attempting to retrieve that metal. But the house now had a family room addition and the slab was under there. No way to get to it without major damage to the house... We didn't pursue this because it would have caused major damage to the house and the current owners were not inclined to give permission.
So, the real point is that I have attempted to investigate all this, but it just didn't go anywhere. Didn't believe that it merited a posting.
And what statements by Marcel do I ignore? Those attributed to him by other family members who only came forward decades of Marcel had died. IF Marcel had shared any of this with family members it would have been his son. I did ask Jesse Jr. about it and he said basically that if his father had talked about it with anyone, it would have been him.
BTW: I believe that others did attempt to find that hidden piece of material in the boiler lid but failed to find it. Might be a good idea to follow through on these claims before slinging allegatinns.
Kevin, thank you for sparing us the great bulk of Lemurian's comments. The field is enough of a mess without such ill tempered noise.
ReplyDelete