Thursday, November 19, 2009

Hector Quintanilla and The Socorro UFO Part 3

Hector Quintanilla (seen here) wrote a memoir about his experiences as the UFO officer for the Air Force. It is an interesting document, in which it becomes clear that his time at Project Blue Book was not a good one. He seems to have detested many people, including Dr. J. Allen Hynek and he believed that no UFOs were the result of alien visitation.

He did, of course, cover the landing at Socorro and it seems to be a fair account. Following is his opinions on the sighting, relevant today because of the discussion going on here. Following is his take on the Socorro sighting.

All hell broke loose on April 24, 1964, and I started smoking again. On that date at approximately 17:45 hours, at Socorro, New Mexico, police officer Lonnie Zamora was headed south chasing a speeding automobile when he suddenly heard a roar and saw a flame in the sky to the southwest. He decided to let the speeder go in favor of investigating the flame, because he knew there was a dynamite shack in the area and it might have blown up. He turned onto a gravel road that led by the shack.

As he was driving slowly along the road, Zamora saw above a steep hill just ahead a funnel-shaped flame, bluish and sort of orange. The base of the flame was hidden behind the hill, there was no smoke connected with the fla me. He had trouble getting the car to the top of the hill because of loose gravel; he had to try three times before he made it. As he reached the top of the hill, he saw a shiny object to the south, this side of the dynamite shack, about 150 to 200 yards away.

It was off the road to the left in the arroyo, and at first glance it looked like a car turned over, but when he drove closer it appeared to be aluminum clay, not chrome, and oval-shaped like a football. Zamora drove about fifty feet along the hill crest, radioing back to the sheriff’s office, "10-44 (accident), I’ll be 10-6 (busy out of the car), checking a wreck down in the arroyo". From this point, seated in the car, he could not see the object over the edge of the hill. As he stopped the car, he was still talking on the radio, and while he was getting out he dropped his mike. He picked it up and put it back and started down towards the object.

Just then he heard a very loud roar, not exactly like a blast, but also not steady like a jet engine. It was of low frequency at first and then became higher. At the same time he saw a light blue flame, sort of orange at the bottom. Zamora believed the flame came from the underside of the object; he could see no smoke but he did see some dust in the vicinity. He panicked, thinking the object was going to blow up. The following is his report of what he experienced (with slight rearrangements for the sake of clarity).


As soon as I saw flame and heard roar…ran away from object but did turn head towards object. Object was in shape It was smooth—no windows or doors. As roar started, it was still on the ground. Noted red lettering of some type like______________________. Insignia was about two and one half inches high and about two inches wide, I guess. Was in the middle of object, like _______________. Object still like aluminum white.

(Running), bumped leg on car back fender area. Car facing southwest…fell by can [sic] and (sun) glasses fell off, kept running to north, with car between me and object…rose to about level of car, about twenty to twenty-five feet, guess. Took I guess, about six seconds when object started to rise and I glanced back…it appeared about directly over the place where it rose from.

I was still running…(then) about fifty meet from car. I ducked down, just over edge of hill…I stopped because I did not hear the roar. I was scared of the roar, and I had planned to continue running down the hill. I turned around toward the object and at the same time put my head toward ground, covering my face with my arms…when the roar
stopped, heard a sharp tone whine and the whine lasted maybe a second. Then there was complete silence about the object.

That’s when I lifted up my head and saw the object going away from me…in a southwestern direction…It did not come any closer to me. It appeared to go in straight line and at same height—possibly ten to fifteen feet from ground, and it cleared the dynamite shack by about three feet. Shack about eight feet high. Object was traveling west fast. It seemed to rise up and take off immediately across country.

I ran back to my car and as I ran back, I kept an eye on the object. I picked up my …sunglasses, got into the car, and radioed to Nep Lopes, radio operator, to look out the window to see if he could see an object. He asked, "What is it?" I answered, "It looks like a balloon". I don’t know if he saw it. If Nep looked out his window, which faces north, he couldn’t see it. I did not tell him at the moment which window to look out of.

As I was calling Nep, I could still see object. The object seemed to lift up slowly, and to get small in the distance very fast. It seemed to just clear the Box Canyon or Mile Canyon Mountain. It disappeared as it went over the mountain. It had no flame whatsoever as it was traveling over the ground, and no smoke or noise.

Feeling in good health. Las drink—two or three beers over a month ago. Noted no odors. Noted no sounds other than described. Gave direction to Nep Lopes at radio and to Sergeant Chaves (of New Mexico State Police at Socorro) to get there. Went down to where the object had been, and I noted the brush was burning in several places.—I got my pen and drew a picture of the insignia on the object.

Then Sgt. Chaves came up, asked me what the trouble was because I was sweating and he told me that I was white, very pale. I asked the Sgt. To see what I saw and that was the burning brush. Then Sgt. Chaves and I went down to the spot and Sgt. Chaves pointed out the tracks.

When I first saw the object (when I thought it might be a car) I saw what appeared to be two legs of some type from the object to the ground. At the time, I didn’t pay much attention to…the two legs. The two legs were at the bottom of the object, slanted outwards to the ground. The object might have been about three and a half feet from the ground at the time…


Lonnie Zamora experienced an event which left quite an impression on him. He was a serious officer, a pillar of his church, and a man well versed in recognizing airborne vehicles in his area. He was puzzled by what he saw, and frankly, so am I. And yet, I’ve always had some doubt about this case, even though it is the best documented case on record. In spite of the fact that I conducted the most thorough investigation that was humanly possible, the vehicle or stimulus that scared Zamora to the point of panic has never been found.

During the course of the investigation and immediately thereafter, everything that was possible to verify was checked. The communications media must have been waiting for a case like this, because immediately after Zamora reported his sighting all hell broke loose. The telephone at my house was ringing off the hook. I went to my office so that I could direct the investigation from there and at the same time contact Kirtland, Holloman, and White Sands via our telephone communications system. As I walked into our building, and turned into the hallway towards my office, I could hear the telephone ringing, ringing, ringing. The operator informed me that I had ten or twelve calls waiting for me. I decided not to accept the calls until after I had talked with my UFO investigating officer at Kirtland. Major Connor was my primary investigator at Kirtland, but he was inexperienced.

Fortunately, my chief analyst, Sgt. David Moody was on temporary duty at Kirtland. I asked Major Connor to get in touch with him and for Moody to get in touch with me regardless of the hour. It was hours before the investigation could be organized and on its way. A Geiger counter had to be found and the base photographer had to be called. The staff car, which had been provided for the investigation had a flat tire midway between Albuquerque and Socorro. Socorro is located fifty-five miles south of Kirtland Air Force Base.

The Stallion Range Officer had already conducted a preliminary investigation and had also interviewed Zamora. This information was turned over to the Air Force investigators as soon as they began their interview with Zamora.

Connor and Moody kept in touch with me and provided me with good information, but there was nothing from which we could draw a definite conclusion or a decent evaluation. The news media was on SAFOI’s back and SAFOI was on my back. I didn’t have any idea as to what Zamora saw and reported, but by God, I was going to find it. Because of the pressure from the news media, I decided to send Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Project Blue Book consultant, to Kirtland to help with the investigation. I felt that Hynek could concentrate on Socorro while Connor and Moody could check all other activity at the other bases in New Mexico.

In the meantime, Marilyn Beumer Stancombe, my secretary, and I began checking for some sort of positive activity. Radiation had been checked by Connor and Moody and the readings were negative. I checked the Holloman AFB Balloon Control Center for balloon activity. All local weather stations and Air Force bases in New Mexico were checked for release of weather balloons. Helicopter activity was checked throughout the state. Government and private aircraft were checked. The reconnaissance division in the Pentagon was checked. I checked with the immigration division hoping they might help. Finally, I was at my wits end, so I told Marilyn, "Get me the White House Command Post". She looked at me with those beautiful blue eyes of hers like I was nuts. I said, "Yes, Marilyn, the White House Command Post".

She never asked me a question, she just started dialing. I was afraid she would ask me how she could reach them, but she didn’t. It took her five or six calls, but she got me the Command Post. A Major General answered and I explained to him my situation. He was very sympathetic, but off hand he couldn’t recall any type of activity in my area of interest. However, he’d check and call me back.

Fifteen minutes later the General called back and told me that the only activity which he had was some U-2 flights. That was no help, so I thanked him for his cooperation and put my thinking cap on again.

It took days for us to check all of these agencies and activities. I finally received Dr. Hynek’s report; it was one of his typical reports which contained few technical details and added practically nothing to what had already been submitted by Connor and Moody. Actually, Hynek added very little to the investigation, however, his typical press interviews added more flame to the fire. The more press coverage the sightings got, the greater the number of sightings which were reported throughout New Mexico.

I was determined to solve the case and come hell or high water I was going to find the vehicle or the stimulus. I decided that it was imperative for me to talk to the Base Commander at Holloman AFB. I wanted to interview the Base Commander at length about special activities from his base. I needed help to pull this off, so I called Lt. Col. Maston Jacks at SAFOI. I told him what I wanted to do and he asked, "Do you think it will do any good?" I replied, "God damned it Maston, if there is an answer to this case it has to be in some hanger at Holloman". He went to work from his position at the Pentagon and the approval for my visit came through. Colonel Garman was the Base Commander during my visit. He was most cooperative and told me that I could go anywhere and visit any activity which interested me. I went from one end of the base to the other. I spent four days talking to everybody I could and spent almost a whole day with the down-range controllers at the White Sands Missile Range. I left Holloman dejected and convinced that the answer to Zamora’s experience did not originate and terminate at that base.

On my way back to Wright-Patterson, I hit upon an idea. Why not a lunar landing vehicle? I knew that some research had been done at Wright-Patterson; so as soon as I got back I asked for some briefings. The briefings were extremely informative, but the Lunar Landers were not operational in April 1964. I got the names of the companies that were doing research in this field and I started writing letters. The companies were most cooperative, but their answers were all negative.

It was now time for me to pass judgment on the case after a careful review of all the information at hand. I hate to use the word "judgment", but that is exactly what it boils down to. As President Truman used to say, "The buck stops here", and in the world of UFO’s my desk was the end of the line. It was time for the Air Force to make a formal decision on the sighting of Socorro, New Mexico. I reviewed the Air Force Materials Laboratory Analysis of the soil samples which were gathered at the alleged landing area. Conclusion: no foreign residue. Laboratory analysis of the burned brush revealed no chemicals that could have been propellant residue. Radiation was normal for the alleged landing area and for the surrounding area. There was no unusual meteorological activity, no thunderstorms; the weather was windy, but clear. Although we made an extensive search for other witnesses, none could be located. There were no unidentified helicopters or aircraft in the area. Radar installations at Holloman AFB and at Albuquerque observed no unusual blips, but the down-range Holloman MTI (Moving Target Indicator) Radar, closest to Socorro, had been closed down for the day at 1600 hours. All the findings and conclusions were negative. The object was traveling at approximately 120 miles per hour when it disappeared over the mountains according to Zamora’s best estimate.

I labeled the case "Unidentified" and the UFO buffs and hobby clubs had themselves a field day. According to them, here was proof that our beloved planet had been visited by an extraterrestrial vehicle. Although I labeled the case "Unidentified" I’ve never been satisfied with that classification.

I’ve always felt that too many essential elements of the case were missing. These are the intangible elements which are impossible to check, so the solution to this case could very well be lying dormant in Lonnie Zamora’s head.

So, even with his inclination to write off everything, he is left with a case involving a landed UFO, two apparent occupants from it and an investigation by his NCO that found no solution. It would have been simple for him to just claim it was a hoax though the media attention seems to have prevented that. Now, in a document that had no media scrutiny, we learn that he still doesn’t have an explanation and that he didn’t like the unidentified category here.

25 comments:

cda said...

Quintanilla's report leaves little doubt that even though Blue Book classed Socorro as an unknown, Q had his doubts about Zamora & his testimony. Although Q avoids saying so, he gives the impression that he believed Zamora had embellished or fabricated some or most of it.

starman said...

You mean Zamora fabricated the landing evidence? Something very real came down there and, as Quintanilla makes clear, it wasn't a surveyor or any earthly aircraft. Btw why doesn't this account mention the occupants?

Frank Stalter said...

Time has proven Quintanilla and Hynek both wrong on this one. I obviously wasn't there, but I do have the benefit of 45 years worth of 20/20 hindsight.

Hynek at least wrote he gave hoax consideration but with some very dodgy on-site evidence that points to hoax and the extraordinary circumstances that drew Zamora to the site, why Hynek didn't lean more heavily in the hoax direction is a head scratcher for me. He made some very unscientific assumptions about hoaxers in his letter to Menzel.

I do think Zamora was a good witness and gave a very accurate account especially under the circumstances.

starman said...

If Zamora's account is accurate we can bury the hoax as well as the earthly craft notion. It would be impossible to hoax a car sized vehicle that descended and rose with a flame but departed quickly and silently, with no visible means of propulsion (such as wind, then blowing from the south, whereas the thing headed west).

Frank Stalter said...

"If Zamora's account is accurate we can bury the hoax as well as the earthly craft notion. It would be impossible to hoax a car sized vehicle that descended and rose with a flame but departed quickly and silently, with no visible means of propulsion (such as wind, then blowing from the south, whereas the thing headed west)."

Zamora never saw any vehicle descend. That's something you're reading into the event. He saw a flame in the sky and heard a roar that drew his attention to the area.

Hynek on the wind-"The wind was blowing strongly from the south, yet the object was reported to have gone on directly west. This would hardly fit a balloon, unless, or course, the directions are wrong. I questioned and requestioned the people on this point and couldn't shake them from that."

Hynek recognizes the possibility that the wind direction information he got was wrong. It's the only sticking point to an unpowered balloon hoax/prank explanation but a balloon is exactly what Zamora said the vehicle looked like when he got his closest look.

David Rudiak said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lance said...

This is all very painful.

Tony and Frank have yet to present their theory of what this supposed hoax was or how it may have happened.

I have asked Tony to do so. Otherwise everyone seems to be responding to a hoax theory that has been created in their own minds.

Personally, I think don't that Tony and Frank really have anything but guesses. Their evidence thus far is not particularly relevant.

Frank, you in particular have perpetuated the inane banter--never saying anything concrete about how such a hoax may have been constructed (other than a mention of the terrain) and to your great shame causing much text to spill forth from Rudiak as he responds (to what he is responding is unknown since you seem to be playing a game, not saying if you are proposing a ballon or rocket or what).

Incidentally, an earlier post was labeled by Rudiak as "The Winds" which is exactly how I file each of his missives label or no.

Lance

Frank Stalter said...

"Personally, I think don't that Tony and Frank really have anything but guesses. Their evidence thus far is not particularly relevant."

Lance, you posted this on my blog at November 8, 2009 11:18 AM:

"Ok, I will say that the evidence cited:

1. Letter
2. Zamora Testimony
3. Location

is all interesting and relevant. The discovery of the letter was an important one."

Which is it or is this a different guy named Lance? Add to those three points to Bragalia's sourced accounts from Colgate, Etscorn and Collis, Zamora's actual account and the accounts of the site from Hynek and Moody's report, which especially evidences a hoax, and you have better and more evidence pointing to hoax than in any other direction.

Neither Bragalia or I were there, so obviously we don't know the specifics of how the hoax was executed.

That is conjecture, but it's informed conjecture based on significant amounts of evidence not your "court of law" red herrings. We aren't in a court of law but cases are decided on a lot less all the time.

In any case, legal or otherwise, you can only come to a "verdict" based on what is in front of you and both Bragalia and I have worked to put as much credible evidence, not Standford fantasies, in the public forum.

People can make up their own minds, but to say we haven't made the best information available, and lots of it, is simply not accurate.

David Rudiak said...

Hynek on the wind-"The wind was blowing strongly from the south, yet the object was reported to have gone on directly west. This would hardly fit a balloon, unless, or course, the directions are wrong. I questioned and requestioned the people on this point and couldn't shake them from that."

Hynek recognizes the possibility that the wind direction information he got was wrong. It's the only sticking point to an unpowered balloon hoax/prank explanation but a balloon is exactly what Zamora said the vehicle looked like when he got his closest look.


First of all, Hynek also wrote in another report that winds were out of the SW. (It turns out, from historical wind data below, wind throughout the region was from the W to S, and Socorro was somewhere in between, probably SSW to SW, similar to but more westerly than nearby Albuquerque with winds out of the S to SSW. So either of Hynek's S or SW Socorro winds could have been right or close.)

Second, the object departed to the WSW, not West, in the direction of the perlite mill at the base of the nearby western mountains. Winds would have had to be 180 degrees opposite, out of the ENE. Since I am going to talk degrees azimuth below, ENE would be around 60 deg. azimuth.

And finally, and most importantly, and a point I already covered in great detail in the discussion on Kevin’s second Socorro post, the historical wind records absolutely disprove any winds even remotely coming out of the north and east to passively drive a balloon to the WSW!!!!!! In fact they were EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION over a very wide area

Now to REPEAT the historical wind records:

http://data.nssl.noaa.gov/dataselect/

Some surrounding weather stations, wind origin in degrees azimuth, between 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. (sighting at around 5:50)
Albuquerque: 180-210 (S to SSW)
Alamogordo: 200-250 (SSW to WSW)
El Paso: 230-270 (SW to W)
Clovis: 200-230 (SSW to SW)
Lubbock: 210-220 (SSW to SW)
Tuscon: 210-270 (SSW to W)
Phoenix: 230-280 (SW-W)

REPEAT: Wind direction for Socorro object departing to WSW would have had to be around 60 deg. Azimuth. Compare with above REAL wind directions, which are nowhere close.

Low pressure storm system moving through area, winds circulating counterclockwise around low. So as you go south from Albuquerque, near the eastern side of the low, winds become more westerly (see, e.g., El Paso and Alamogordo winds). Therefore Socorro probably more westerly that Albuquerque, at least SSW, maybe SW winds at time of sighting. Stiff winds in Albuquerue, with gusts of 25-30 mph around noon, rising to 40+ mph at night. Socorro probably similar (corroborating Zamora's account of stiff gusts of wind).

So unless Frank Stalter want to suspend natural law and magically reverse the circulation direction of the 1000 mile across low pressure system, winds were exactly wrong for any sort of balloon theory. But don’t expect Frank Stalter, with his magical thinking abilities and marketer propaganda skills, to give it a rest

David Rudiak said...

Minor correction to wind data:

Clovis, N.M. should have had winds of 190 to 200 deg azimuth, not 200 to 230 as previously written:

Corrected table, wind origin in degrees azimuth, between 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. (sighting at around 5:50)

Albuquerque: 180-210 (S to SSW)
Alamogordo: 200-250 (SSW to WSW)
El Paso: 230-270 (SW to W)
Clovis: 190-200 (S to SSW)
Lubbock: 210-220 (SSW to SW)
Tuscon: 210-270 (SSW to W)
Phoenix: 230-280 (SW-W)

Frank Stalter said...

"So unless Frank Stalter want to suspend natural law and magically reverse the circulation direction of the 1000 mile across low pressure system, winds were exactly wrong for any sort of balloon theory. But don’t expect Frank Stalter, with his magical thinking abilities and marketer propaganda skills, to give it a rest."

I don't intend to. More truth about the case has been exposed in the last two months, lies and half truths have been exposed and more will come out by keeping the debate going. If it takes marketing to get to the answer, then so be it. Serious research hasn't gotten the job done. :O)

Lance said...

The Letter and Zamora testimony don't give us any ideas about your 'hoax" was constructed.

If all you have is the letter, then you have nothing.

I thought you had implied that you (or Tony) knew how the hoax was done. Calling it a magic trick, etc. implied that you had some information about what really happened.

I suspect now that you don't.

Which is sad but to be expected in this field. Let me just say that when you create boneheaded, attention grabbing headlines without any real evidence behind them, you should not be surprised when you are greeted by symphony of horse laughs.

Some people (even among UFO buffs!!!!) know real evidence from simple wishing.

Saying, "I know it was a hoax but I have no idea how it could have been done" is silly and stupid. The time has come to put up or shut up.

I think what Rudiak does is despicable but at least he often starts with actual evidence (before he ham handedly twists it to suit his needs). You guys seem to be creating this stuff entirely without support of, you know, facts.

What a situation this is, a skeptic having to refute a hoax explanation!


Lance

Frank Stalter said...

"I thought you had implied that you (or Tony) knew how the hoax was done. Calling it a magic trick, etc. implied that you had some information about what really happened."

Vanishing, transformation and levitation aren't elements of magic? That's certainly what happened at Socorro. You've claimed to be a magician, so what's your answer.

Top notch pros will tell you that when they see shows done by others, they don't always know exactly how some tricks were done and they saw them with their own eyes.

It's somehow my fault and Bragalia's fault that Socorro was hyped beyond all reality in the years since 1964? Just beating down the myths and assumptions has been a challenge, led alone the insults from the cheap seats, where you obviously are sitting. Yeah, just walk away from your self-contradictions as if they never happened.

Socorro has "intelligent design" written all over it from the moment the black Chevy led Zamora to the scene.

cda said...

As I've said, the hoax theory is really all the skeptics have left, and I have to concede that without it, there is simply no credible solution to Socorro. But if we go along with a hoax, we are left with the inevitable: Zamora was NOT telling the whole truth. He either fabricated his story (which I seriously doubt after all the grilling and interviews he had in the early days) or he embellished parts of it. Another possibility is that he was a party to the hoax but not the principal party.

What I just cannot accept is that after 45 years someone (even Zamora himself) would not have given the game away long ago. Every angle you look at the story seems to have problems or too many unanswered questions. Yet a hoax is still possible. I do feel the ground traces were put there beforehand and had nothing to do with the UFO. Beyond that, there is virtually nothing to go on. Klass says the burn marks could have been caused by a cigarette lighter. Was he correct or not?
Can anyone disprove him? Did the vehicle really have an estimated weight of 4 to 10 tons, and who is the person who alleged this?

I share the ETHers view that nobody will ever explain how this hoax was done and who did it. But I also do not attribute those landing impressions to the vehicle that Zamora witnessed. I also suspect that the two men in white overalls didn't exist. But I cannot prove anything.

David Rudiak said...

Just to make the historical wind data clearer, I've posted a graphic of the winds at multiple surrounding weather stations at the time of the Socorro incident.

http://www.roswellproof.com/SocorroWinds_April_24_1964.html

It should be obvious from this diagram to anybody with half a brain that winds at the time make it ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for the Socorro object to have been a balloon.

Once again, a "balloon" would have had to fly AGAINST strong winds blowing at the time. Just look at the damn diagram! You would have to suspend natural law and reverse a low pressure system to have any chance of the winds to be blowing right.

I know this won't stop our dumbbell, magical thinking debunkers, who seem deliberately obtuse and can't acknowledge obvious simple scientific FACTS. But I think that everybody else gets it.

And this brings us back to one of the HUGE problems with the hoax theory that the debunkers keep dodging. Just what was the SILENT object that Zamora saw departing rapidly into the wind in a straight line and hugging the ground for 2 miles?

A BALLOON IS IMPOSSIBLE and no conventional aircraft then or now can do a vertical takeoff, then fly horizontally and SILENTLY like that.

And, of course, they also can’t explain other HUGE points, such as the absence of any chemical traces to explain the fresh burning at the site or the complete absence of track evidence of hoaxers or necessary hoaxing paraphernalia at the site, which would have had to magically vanish under the noses of Zamora and other police first responders quickly at the site, all points mentioned 45 years ago in discussions of possible hoax. For these reasons, even Quintanilla and the Air Force were forced to admit Socorro was no hoax.

Frank Stalter said...

"And this brings us back to one of the HUGE problems with the hoax theory that the debunkers keep dodging. Just what was the SILENT object that Zamora saw departing rapidly into the wind in a straight line and hugging the ground for 2 miles?"

Clearly David, it was an extraterrestrial craft. It makes perfect sense that ETs would noisily land just outside the county seat, get out of their vehicle, be shocked that a local cop would actually see them so close to town and then get back in and noisily take off for their home planet at silent but supersonic speeds all within 10 minutes on a Friday afternoon. Those kinds of things happen all the time . . . in Delusionville which you are apparently the mayor of.

David Rudiak said...

Frank Stalter wrote:
Clearly David, it was an extraterrestrial craft. It makes perfect sense that ETs would noisily land just outside the county seat, get out of their vehicle, be shocked that a local cop would actually see them so close to town and then get back in and noisily take off for their home planet at silent but supersonic speeds all within 10 minutes on a Friday afternoon. Those kinds of things happen all the time . . . in Delusionville which you are apparently the mayor of.

No, the “mayor of Delusionville” is somebody who thinks a “balloon” can magically fly against the wind and hoaxers can flee the area using magical “pole vaulting” that leaves no tracks behind.

And thank you Frank for finally publicly outing yourself as to your real agenda here. You are a hardline UFO debunker, contrary to the mask you try to put on your web blog: “Look at the other articles on my site (the ones nobody comments on). It should be pretty evident that I think there's something to the alien visitation possibility.”

Well, apparently not. According to Stalter, an "alien visitation possibility" just isn't possible for Socorro (because he says so) and anybody who might argue otherwise, based on the actual factual evidence, automatically becomes the “mayor of Delusionville.”

This is Stalter AGAIN not addressing the big issues, because he can't, and instead resorting to ridicule to try to change the subject. This is always a clear sign that somebody has no case.

Some marketers can leave the two-faced propaganda and hypocrisy at the office. Some obviously can’t.

Lance said...

Frank,

I do want to be clear about what you are calling contradictions in what I have said because unlike other parties whose names appear above, I do value true discourse (despite the crabby way I participate):

1. I did say that the letter was a valuable (interesting and relevant) find. It is. But it is not (obviously) definitive proof of anything and certainly goes nowhere towards explaining the who what how of a hoax.

2. Zamora's testimony is obviously the MOST important thing but it does not solve anything in the "hoax" camp.

3. The lay of the land. I mentioned this also as the only real element that I can see that you have suggested as part of a hoax theory. You never really went anywhere with it or explained how it worked.

That covers what you suggested as contradictions. When I say you have nothing, I mean nothing strong enough to sway belief one way or another.

I hope that you might now be clear as to why I don't believe that I did contradict myself. While I am rather ornery, I do TRY to be as consistent as possible.

Let me ask you how having a headline that says:

"HOW THEY DID IT AND HID IT"

isn't a contradiction in light of your comically impotent ability to even come close to explaining anything?


Honestly, I don't know what happened that day. And it looks like the evil government admitted that it didn't know either (which must be shocking to true believers as well as unprecedented).

Zamora MUST have seen something is one conclusion I have made. In other words, I don't think he made the whole thing up. His call back to the station that he was investigating an overturned car leads me inexorably to that conclusion.

If it was some sort of hoax device, I would not be surprised if Zamora's testimony had substantial errors--people often do make such errors. And such errors may make all the blah blah about wind direction, etc meaningless.

But that is all speculation.

I thought you and Tony were leading towards a conclusion that there was a balloon (perhaps attacked to a rocket???) or something like that. I should have known after Tony's earlier stories on Roswell, that he may well have had nothing more than the letter despite promising much more. His earlier stories were equally lacking in beef.

Lance

David Rudiak said...

Regarding the bizarre idea that Zamora could somehow have gotten the UFO departure direction badly wrong, a hugely grasping-at-straws attempt to discount the wind data PROVING that the UFO flew against the wind:

Zamora said the object departed up the arroyo in the same general direction that it went, i.e., to WSW or SW.

Zamora said the object appeared to fly directly over the dynamite shack, which was about 500 feet to the WSW. Kind of hard to get that direction wrong.

Zamora said the object flew in a straight line toward the perlite mill, which is at the base of the very prominent mountains to the west of Socorro, only 2 miles away. The perlite mill was AGAIN, WSW, of Zamora’s position. The mining operation there is a huge white scar on the base of the mountains, easily visible even in low-quality photos. Again, it would be quite impossible to "misperceive" the object flying in the opposite direction.

And finally, Zamora said the object angled sharply up over the perlite mill, rose rapidly in the sky above the mountains, and seemed to fade out over Box or Six-mile canyons, AGAIN, both SSW of Zamora.

So absolutely everything Zamora described about the departure of the object indicates that it flew off to the WSW. You would have to be in deep denial or again guilty of debunker magical thinking to believe Zamora could have completely reversed directions, just so you can get the wind data to be magically right for a hoax “balloon.”

Frank Stalter said...

"And thank you Frank for finally publicly outing yourself as to your real agenda here. You are a hardline UFO debunker, contrary to the mask you try to put on your web blog."

Thanks for letting me know what I really think, I would never have gotten it without your help. Yes, you are quite correct, the article about the White House UFO related meeting that's recorded in the Truman archives, the one about the Pauling UFO study proposal which is kept in his OSU archives and the article on Deke Slayton's sighting were all just a government ploy. I'm probably risking my life by revealing this, but it's true, it's all a giant conspiracy designed to build up your fantasy-based ego.

Oh yeah, and I discovered the Pauling-Colgate letter, so that was a two-for-one find. Good marketing, eh? So that's four very significant finds in less than six months of looking into UFOs. What can you point to? The Ramey memo? lol

Seriously David, I've already contacted the authorities and if I die laughing tonight at your stupidity expect a knock on your door from someone in blue.

Is it any wonder that serious scientists wouldn't touch UFO research with a 17-foot vaulting pole with the likes of trolls like you.

You're a moron David, but I'll give you this. You aren't two-faced, because if you were, you certainly wouldn't be using the one you've got.

Frank Stalter said...

"Let me ask you how having a headline that says:

"HOW THEY DID IT AND HID IT"

isn't a contradiction in light of your comically impotent ability to even come close to explaining anything?"

It's a headline designed to draw attention, nothing more.

"If it was some sort of hoax device, I would not be surprised if Zamora's testimony had substantial errors--people often do make such errors. And such errors may make all the blah blah about wind direction, etc meaningless."

Zamora was, by all accounts, very upset during his closer encounter. That is possible as is something more sophisticated than an unpowered balloon. At the end of the day, there are four choices:


1-Aliens: <1%
2-Commercial experimental vehicle: 2%
3-Government experimental vehicle: 2%
4-Hoax: >95%

I'm being generous with the non-hoax explanations here too.

One of them is right. That's 100%.

Lance said...

"It's a headline designed to draw attention, nothing more. "

Oh, I see...

Very admirable to admit such a thing. How much of everything else is of the same purpose?

I am gonna put it at 95%.

Lance

Frank Stalter said...

"Very admirable to admit such a thing. How much of everything else is of the same purpose?

I am gonna put it at 95%."

I'm going to put your IQ at 95. I've been generous with my numbers all night, why stop now.

steve sawyer said...

*sigh*
[grimace]
(followed by faintly perplexed laughter...)

I can see civil discourse and logical argumentation continues apace here...

Well, I tried (to inject some earlier moderation).

cda said...

"You never can tell with these ETs!"

That may be truer than we can even comprehend, whether "ET" or not.

I would suggest Socorro was indeed a "hoax," in the sense of the combination of all the anthropomorphic aspects, the crudely "alien" motifs, and the strangely inexplicable, controlled movement of the object as it silently flew away into a crosswind, but that the hoaxers were some element of non-human intelligence, leading us into the kind of essential confusion, logical paradoxes, and ineffable cognitive dissonance we find ourselves here, and elsewhere, within. It has worked wonders with all of the above! The tricksters abide, dudes. The doppelganger effect...

But then, aside from first-level interpretations of Socorro as either a "prosaic hoax" or an all too "standard" ET CE III, no one seemingly wants to consider here a post-modern, Foucault-like, deeper deconstruction of the actual elements of Socorro in toto as an elaborate, staged "display" bound to inspire such dissension and conflict. I guess, like Vallee, I'm slowly becoming a "heretic among heretics."

You know, Socorro reminds me of the old Twilight Zone episode written by Rod Serling as an indirect comment on the McCarthy era, "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street."

See it at: http://bit.ly/3eJocg

Watch the last five minutes, at least. Another thing Socorro, the only unidentified and unexplained CE III on record classed as an "unknown" by Project Blue Book, reminds me of: Roswell.

Increasingly, to me, the Socorro and Roswell cases, among many of the other best-documented and strangest UFO incidents on record, and in the cognitive discord they inspire, remind me also of the invested meaning and otherworldly significance that a discarded Coca-Cola bottle grew to have to an aboriginal tribe without knowledge of other civilizations in the film "The Gods Must Be Crazy."

Indeed, perhaps they are. Like foxes in a henhouse? How much of these kinds of consequences are "us" vs. "them" I'll leave to others to ponder, other than to suggest the UFO phenomenon is a co-evolutionary and an interactively morphing one.

From the Twilight Zone episode:

"Figure One:

Understand the procedure now? Just stop a few of their machines and radios and telephones and lawn mowers...throw them into darkness for a few hours and then you just sit back and watch the pattern.

Figure Two:

And this pattern is always the same?

Figure One:

With few variations. They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find...and it's themselves. And all we need to do is sit back...and watch.

Figure Two:

Then I take it this place...this Maple Street...is not unique.

Figure One (shaking his head):

By no means. Their world is full of Maple Streets. And we'll go from one to the other and let them destroy themselves. One to the other...one to the other...one to the other..."

[emphasis added]

Or, as it seems here, and Earth in general:

One to another...one to another...

Perhaps Socorro and Roswell are something else's intentionally discarded coke bottles. So they can watch the patterns of reactive behavior...like a child running his finger across an ant trail.

borky said...

Kev, isn't it funny, (the human condition, I suppose), how two people can read the same thing and come to exactly opposite conclusions?

cda concludes, "Q had his doubts about Zamora & his testimony....he gives the impression that he believed Zamora had embellished or fabricated some or most of it."

I, however, read Quintanilla's take as being he accepted Zamora was a - bang! - stand up guy and his report a faithful redaction of what he'd witnessed.

Yet, since, he couldn't possibly've witnessed something inexplicable (meaning, by Quintanilla's standards, an alien spaceship, or even technology unknown to the US military) it had to be the case somewhere in Zamora's head was a detail, meaningless to him, but in the hands of the right expert, proof positive the whole thing was merely a division of US Black Ops.

But that's the one thing I hate about most of these 'terrestial' Socorro explanations - they depend on the idea Zamora was either a bullying bad person, an imbecile who couldn't spot an obvious "no-brainer", or a nobody who craved reality TV type fame.