Friday, July 14, 2017

MUFON, Billy Meier (and Michael Horn) and Me

In the course of discussing the problems faced by MUFON, I was contacted by Michael Horn, who is the US representative of Billy Meier. Meier is, of course, the
Billy Meier
man who claims contact with alien creatures going back to 1975, or maybe even earlier depending on whether you count his alleged childhood contacts in that number. I told Horn in the initial conversation that I was not a fan of Meier, knew something of the case, but found Horn’s claim about MUFON ignoring Meier to be of interest in what I was doing.

Horn had told me that MUFON refused to book him into their Symposium (which, of course, is their right) but did book others with equally dubious claims. I mean, I can’t believe that some of those in the leadership of MUFON are comfortable with time travelers and claims of a secret space program that has apparently solved the problems of interstellar flight but will reject Meier. If, as Jan Harzan, MUFON’s Executive Director, said, they are interested in providing the information to the membership so that they can decide for themselves what they wish to believe, then why not provide Meier, or Meier’s American representative, with the same platform. I was commenting on the lack of consistency but not endorsing the claims of Billy Meier. (Of course, Harzan is right in not giving Horn a platform at the Symposium or any other MUFON venue but that’s a whole other argument.)

This resulted in a barrage of emails and comments by Horn filled with links to Meier supporting sites, and one-sided arguments about the reality of Meier’s claims. I followed the links which is why I know that. I didn’t find them particularly persuasive. I had looked at the Meier claims in the past and even mentioned that I had Kinder’s book, Light Years, to prove that I had been aware of Meier for a long time and his claims of contact were unproven, at least to me.

This, apparently, annoyed Horn. Censorship was his claim, but it was more of editorial decisions because I can’t publish everything and I don’t want to publish something I don’t believe, unless of course, I’m using it to show how outlandish some stories can be. Without editorial comment, it was a direction I did not want to go. Oh, I’ve given others a chance to respond to my criticisms without me making changes or deleting sections of their responses. Those have been by invitation, such as saying, “If the so and so wishes to respond, I will publish that response without comment.” Sometimes that just seems to be fair.

Horn upped the ante then with other allegations which were little more than a transparent attempt to manipulate me. To prove I wasn’t the things he said I was, I would have to publish his comments, even when those comments were not relevant to the original post. In other words, he was attempting to hijack part of the blog. He wanted to turn it into another propaganda tool for him and Billy Meier.

Well, that’s not going to happen.

Instead, I decided to update my knowledge of Meier and see what others had to say. The consensus seemed to be that the Meier contact claims were not based in reality. I fear mentioning names of those commentators here because I don’t think those others need to be bombarded by emails from Michael Horn.

However, I looked the Meier case up in Jerome Clark’s UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition. It was surprising neutral in tone which is a compliment to Jerry’s reporting. It is certainly skeptical but not filled with the vitriol that sometimes passes for reasoned analyses.

I did note that Jerry had reported, “To prove their reality to skeptical human beings, Semjase [one of Meier’s alien women] said the Pleiadians would make their ‘beamships’ visible to Meier, in turn Meier was to take as many photographs as he could manage.”

This struck me as silly because if the Pleiadians were interested in proving their existence to the skeptics, why not make their beamships visible to a huge crowd assembled for the purpose. With TV cameras rolling and hundreds taking pictures, that would pretty much prove the case… with one man taking the pictures at some secret location as some unspecified time without corroborating witnesses, the pictures themselves proved nothing.

Following in that theme, I found website run by New Mexico skeptics, which attempted to explore some of the Meier claims. You can view the website here:


(You might need to add the title, “MICHAEL HORN’S FAILURE PROVES THE MEIER CASE IS FAKE!” to get to the right page.)

The article was written by Anthony Wharton, St Helens, Merseyside, UK, in 2009 (which is why I mentioned his name). Wharton had, some five years earlier or in 2004, asked Meier and Horn to produce some hard-physical evidence, which in the world today Horn claims had been reviewed in proper scientific arenas. But, Wharton wrote:

I very recently spoke to Meier and Horn, and asked them why, in almost five years, they had failed to meet my challenge. Their response was that they had put forward enough UFO physical evidence, and to put forward any more would be pointless. They went on to speak about the metal alloy samples that they put forward in the 1970's, which were looked at by scientists at the time. In my response [Wharton] I pointed out that Meier had not put forward a single scrap of new photographic evidence in well over 25 years. Why not? I also reminded Meier and Horn that their metal alloy samples came back from the science laboratory with an official report. This report concluded that the samples were 100% terrestrial in origin, and could be very easily replicated by simply melting down some metal alloy and adding some glass, crystals and quartz. Basically, the samples were of no use what so ever to either the UFO or scientific communities.
This is the sort of answer, suggesting they had already done it and were not interested in doing again, is what I expect from those who simply don’t have the proof they claim. I can’t tell you the number of times that I have asked someone for their military records to support their claims of military service and get a similar answer when they say that they have done so and to do so again is pointless. I will also note when challenged I do produce the military records to prove my claims. Here, rather than produce the evidence, they refuse with a ridiculous excuse. If you wish to prove something that is outside the mainstream you must expect repeated requests for the evidence. That’s science. Repeatability.

Wharton concluded, “As regards Billy Meier's and Michael Horn's ultimate failure to meet my challenge, the Billy Meier UFO case can now only ever be regarded as, at best, a work of fiction. Let's not forget that Meier and Horn still claim that Meier is in constant contact with the Plejarans to this very day, [emphasis in the original] so this challenge should literally be a walk in the park for them. What Michael Horn and Billy Meier fail to realize is that, by failing to meet my challenge, it is actually they who have proved that the Billy Meier UFO case is fake.”

There are some other ways to investigate this. For example, and according to Skeptics Guide to the Universe, it was shown, contrary to what had been claimed for Meier, he had not predicted the Paris terror attacks many years earlier. You can see the full article here:


You can read about the Meier prediction and rebuttal here:


Rather than drag this out, I’ll let you all go to the sites to read both articles. I will note, however, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that Meier did anything other than make some vague statements that could be adapted to any of a number of world events. It is not unlike saying there will be a major earthquake in 2017 (remember you read it here first). I will add that I’m sure that Horn will respond with a long list of other, supportive websites, so I feel no obligation to do so here.

In fact, for those interested in all this, there are any number of websites either endorsing or rejecting Meier’s claims. MUFON is unneeded to give this nonsense a platform because many others have done so, as seen by the number of websites devoted to the Meier case. And while I know that I will now join the ranks of the other “liars and deniers” of the Meier claims, I will also note that I haven’t called anyone a name, suggested they were cowardly, had no integrity, but have tried to provide all the information for those not familiar with a case to come to an informed opinion.

Although Kal Korff has discredited himself repeatedly with his antics, he accurately wrote, in his book Spaceships of the Pleiades, “The Billy Meier ‘evidence’ is now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down.” This says it all.


Let the blow back begin.

76 comments:

Michael Horn said...

This will be a multi-part comment:

I am glad that Kevin has at least posted something about the Meier case. The problem of course is that all of the info he cites - going out of his way to attempt to debunk the case - is from skeptics. And the skeptical attacks themselves have long been rebutted by the actual, exiting evidence. And yes, I can substantiate that.

For instance, skeptics say that Meier didn't actually predict the Paris attacks and that his 1958 statement was too general. However, the fact is that Meier wrote this on November 23, 1981:

“Italy and France will be shaken, due to revolutionaries, who murderously and by arson destroy every order: Paris will be destroyed from within and burnt down. The inhabitants themselves are those, who lay Paris into rubble and ashes via murder, arson and revolution, while Italy also falls due to massacres…”

I already presented it in my DVD, The Meier Contacts - The Key to Our Future Survival, in...2004. There's a lot more of course, with over 200 very specific examples of prophetically accurate information. And if you're concerned that "Paris hasn't been burned down yet"...please be patient.

Now for a few other inaccuracies from Kevin - who can't address the specifics of the information he claimed to have seen and admittedly has absolutely NO actual research himself into the case, relying only on what skeptics have said:

KR: "Horn had told me that MUFON refused to book him into their Symposium"
MH: I don't recall that at all. I told him about Harzan's saying he'd investigate the Meier case, which of course he failed to do.

Also unknown to Kevin is that I've presented the Meier case to MUFON groups in Los Angeles and Sedona. Former NASA aerospace engineer, Matthew Wieczkiewicz - a solid supporter of the authenticity of the Meier contacts along with other aerospace professionals - has also presented at MUFON. As a matter of fact, one of the AZ state MUFON people asked us WHY MUFON blocks official investigation and acknowledgement of the Meier case.

My answer was, of course, because of it's singular authenticity.

(Continued)

Michael Horn said...

(Continued)

Kevin is also wrong about witnesses. There are over 125 other eyewitnesses to the UFOs (I am one them) and five other photographers. Kevin didn't link to ANY of the independent, expert, scientific analyses and authentications of Meier's UFO photos, films, sound recordings and metal analyses.

WHY? Why wouldn't he think that his readers were intelligent enough to determine the truth themselves, even if he is determined to not do so? People can find all the freely available evidence, analyses, corroboration of owe 200 specific examples of Meier’s information at my blog and site (apparently Kevin won’t allow my links).

Why did Kevin go out of his way to cite a 2009 article by a British skeptic - who clearly failed miserably to duplicate Meier’s still irreproducible UFO photos - who NEVER actually spoke with Meier? I exchanged emails with Tony Wharton, as I did with another skeptic Phil Langdon, actually supporting them in their (failed) attempts toduplicabe Meier’s evidence.

Very foolishly - and ABSOLUTELY UNSCIENTIFICALLY AND UNPROFESSIONALLY - Kevin tries to cite what Wharton has written as some kind of accurate and therefore dismissive “evidence”.

To be clear, anyone can corroborate the claims that I absolutely stand by exactly what the actual evidence substantiates: The Billy Meier contacts are the only scientifically proven, still ongoing UFO contacts, now spanning more than 75 years.

As I told Kevin, it’s enormously cowardly and incompetent to try to attack and suppress this information, cite long defeated, dubious skeptics and…call yourself any kind of a real researcher and investigator.

It certainly irritated a few people on this blog that I referred to myself as the world’s leading authority on UFOs. The reason is quite simply. Of ALL the people lecturing about UFOs, I am the only one who’s been within 20’ of one, the only person to have received specific, dated, published information from the Plejaren (through Meier) that turned out to be 100% prophetically accurate, and the only one presenting the ONLY case with actual, independently analyzed and authenticated evidence, in the form of over 1,200 stunningly clear, still irreproducible UFO photos, films, video, and metal alloy smalls and sound recordings, plus the voluminous amount of specific, prophetically accurate scientific and world event related information..

I will also say that it’s both ironic and hypocritical of him to discuss the so-called UFO cover-up, when he’s complicit in covering up only authentic, still ongoing case. So, I openly challenge Kevin Randle to publicly substantiate HIS claims that the Meier case is a hoax. If he’s truly interested in doing more than trying to suppress the truth so he can peddle Roswell books, he should be quite agreeable.

They’ll also find out what happens when so-called “UFO experts”, who beat dead horses like Roswell, actually engage in debate on the Meier case, as Stanton Friedman found out.

I expect that supporters of Kevin’s will have opposing, uninformed views, etc. So, I’m forwarding this as an email to Rob McConnell, who hosted the debate where poor Stanton Friedman took a bad licking for a similarly foolish, unsubstantiated, uninformed, ill-prepared position.

Kevin objected to my calling him cowardly, so it should be no problem for him at all to man up and support his position.


Michael Horn said...

P.S. People can engage in this discussion as early as tomorrow:

Michael Horn will be on "End of Days", with host Michael Decon, Saturday night, July 15, at 8:00 pm PST/11:00 pm EST.
Call in at: 760.332.8947 

Michael Horn said...

I am glad that Kevin has at least posted something about the Meier case. The problem of course is that all of the info he cites - going out of his way to attempt to debunk the case - is from skeptics. And the skeptical attacks themselves have long been rebutted by the actual, exiting evidence.

A quick one: We're told that Meier didn't actually predict the Paris attacks and that his 1958 statement was too general. However, the fact is that Meier wrote this on November 23, 1981:

“Italy and France will be shaken, due to revolutionaries, who murderously and by arson destroy every order: Paris will be destroyed from within and burnt down. The inhabitants themselves are those, who lay Paris into rubble and ashes via murder, arson and revolution, while Italy also falls due to massacres…”

I already presented it in my DVD, The Meier Contacts - The Key to Our Future Survival, in...2004. There's a lot more of course, with over 200 very specific examples of prophetically accurate information. And if you're concerned that "Paris hasn't been burned down yet"...please be patient.

Now for a few other inaccuracies from Kevin - who can't address specifics of the information he claimed to have seen and admittedly has absolutely NO actual research himself into the case and relies on others people's work only:

KR: "Horn had told me that MUFON refused to book him into their Symposium"
MH: I don't recall that at all. I told him about Harzan's saying he'd investigate the Meier case.

Also unknown to Kevin is that I've presented the Meier case to MUFON groups in Los Angeles and Sedona. Former NASA aerospace engineer, Matthew Wieczkiewicz - a solid supporter of the authenticity of the Meier contacts - has also presented at MUFON. As a matter of fact, one of the AZ state MUFON people asked us WHY MUFON blocks official investigation and acknowledgement of the Meier case. My answer was, of course, because of it's singular authenticity.

There is quite a bit to say about why Kevin only sought skeptics and their also unsubstantiated claims. Kevin fails to correct his own inaccurate perceptions previously stated, i.e. there are over 125 other eyewitnesses to the UFOs (I am one them) and five other photographers. Kevin didn't link to ANY of the independent, expert, scientific analyses and authentications of Meier's UFO photos, films, sound recordings and metal analyses.

WHY? Why wouldn't he think that his readers were intelligent enough to determine the truth themselves, even if he is determined to not do so?

KRandle said...

Michael -

Didn't have to link to any of those knowing that you would do that.

Same tired rhetoric.

Michael Horn said...

Kevin,

You'll have an opportunity to make your case when we debate.

Hint: Instead of saying it's "rhetoric", I suggest actually preparing for the debate, which will be based on long established facts.

KRandle said...

The blow back continues...

And there will be no debate. I'm just no longer interested in this nonsense.

Michael Horn said...

Well I've already advertised it on my blog. And hey, it's better that it occurs in a live debate than in the blow back from lots of other people who may think that there's some...cowardice involved.

Michael Horn said...

Kevin, hello, hello, Kevin, can you hear me...is this still thing on? Helloooooo...

Matt Knight said...

Kevin,

What are you afraid of? Stand by your views and debate Michael or they're just flimsy nothing burgers.

You mention "A whole other argument" when slandering Meier, but, never present this argument, just some random skeptics' ill-informed opinions, supporting your own groundless opinion. How many opinions is that away from any real testimony or testing of the evidence from the Meier case?

You must have missed the whole computers/CGI UFO making software revolution thing that happened, or, ignored the reality of it, when pointing "...out that Meier had not put forward a single scrap of new photographic evidence in well over 25 years".

Despite the fact that Meier is, up to today, having ongoing contacts with ETs and proving that by publishing conversations with scientific statements of fact, that are only confirmed corroborate by Science, many times so as to be statistically impossible to make up, you couldn't even provide or afford the levels of testing that were done on Meier's photos in the late 70's/early 80's, so why ask? Just read the results of the investigation, or, stop calling yourself any expert on UFOs.

purrlgurrl said...

I couldn't read through the entire post. I'm so not interested in Meier and his lies and hoaxed photos, and so fed up with MUFON's total sell out on so many levels.

Who cares if an organization that has lost all credibility refuses to give a platform to a UFO hoaxer who also has none. Would we care if ISIS blocked Al Qaeda from its Twitter account?

Jedi Reach said...

Come now Kevin, I'm sure a debate for truth wouldn't hurt, would it? If it's really hocus pocus, then here's your chance to prove it.

Jedi Reach said...

Come now Kevin,

Here's your chance to debate for the sake of truth. Don't you want that? Truth?

Paul Kimball said...

Welcome to the "Michael Horn will spam you until you block him" club, Kevin. It has an honourable membership full of people who are sane and rational

PK

tom livesey said...

Surely the point is MUFON's double standards? Why privilege the latest shiny stories and disrespect the history of the field? Why is it security clearance carrying Blue Avians now, and not inscrutable maverick Greys or loving Pleiadeans? There is a whole historiography or psychology to be written here, a whole politics and economics perhaps. Are we just to blow in the wind like winged goldfish instead?

KRandle said...

Thanks. Paul.

I thought it silly of him to announce a debate without bothering to ask me. There is no point in a debate.

Jedi Reach said...

"There is no point in a debate."

Why? Also agreeing with someone who is slandering? Bad taste dude.

Unknown said...

Coz you afraid to MH..debate with him

jag sohal said...

Come on KRandle debate with MH,are you afraid?

james tankersley said...

I can ASSURE you that Kevin is NOT afraid to debate with anyone! He has served his country as a vietnam vet, helicopter pilot, an air force intelligence officer, has had a TOP SECRET clearance, has agreed to debate Kal Korf numerous times before Kal suddenly canceled his cowardly appearance without warning or reason to justify it. He was even in the Iraq war fighting these madman intolerant terrorists who were blowing their selves up with bombs all for an insane power hungry dictator and his ilk on a daily basis! How many of critics who are attacking Kevins GENUINE UFO research can say that?

Jedi Reach said...

@ Blogger james tankersley

If he's not afraid then why doesn't he just engage in disproving MH? You talk about cowardly yet here's a guy who refuses to even engage.

If Meier is BS then here's the chance to publicly disprove it and MH.

Saying 'it's nonsense', 'they're insane', is unscientific. Show us why it's nonsense and disprove MH 1 on 1. I mean -- why not? You guys ARE interested in truth, right?

karumudi mahesh chowdary said...

Michael Horn: "People can find all the freely available evidence, analyses, corroboration of owe 200 specific examples of Meier’s information at my blog and site (apparently Kevin won’t allow my links). "

A shameful blatant lie that has been exposed in our research analyzing hundreds of Meier's supposed "corroborated" prophecies and predictions. Let me quote from our BMUFOR website:
http://www.billymeieruforesearch.com/prophecies-predictions-probability-calculations/#Conclusions

"And the most important finding of our investigation into the widely touted extraordinary claims and by far the strongest evidence supporting the null hypothesis, is the uncovering of so much incriminating evidence of deception and falsification. And this has been quite evident and demonstrable in many of Meier’s so-called “fulfilled” prophecies and predictions, which exhibits the following four patterns (or modus operandi), strikingly matching all the hallmarks of an ingenious hoax:

1. Publish information on events or discoveries that are vague, open ended, recyclable, catch-all, shotgunning, statistically likely or unfalsifiable.
2. Publish information only after the occurrence of events or discoveries, but misleadingly with an older publication date printed on it, i.e. a date that is older than the described event or discovery. And often either explicitly or implicitly claim to be the first person in the world to announce it.
3. Publish information that is already or later proven to be baloney or erroneous, or that is considered to be downright pseudoscience or myth. As a result of this, Meier gets his specific details wrong in EXACTLY the same way the scientists and others had it wrong at the time Meier published it.
4. Either slip in new specific details or alter the texts, conveniently, in later reprints/editions of his SELF-PUBLISHED books (Wassermannzeit publishing house) in order to make it accord with the latest information or scientific findings that invalidates the earlier published information. And these new and altered editions are published misleadingly with only the first edition publication dates printed on it instead of the latter edition publication dates (along with the former)."


Dear Kevin and others, you can visit our BMUFOR website and find many debunking articles on Meier that irrefutably exposes him to be fraud.

Michael Horn said...

Too bad that Kevin doesn't share your confidence in him. He's trying to get out of the debate and, in fact, says there won't be one.

BTW, since he doesn't post all my responses...I'll post them on my blog so that people can read them there.

Bruce said...

Actually, what really "says it all", about Kevin Randle's lack of investigative skills 101 and ability to decipher a lie from the truth, is his very last paragraph --

"Although Kal Korff has discredited himself repeatedly with his antics, he accurately wrote, in his book Spaceships of the Pleiades, “The Billy Meier ‘evidence’ is now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down.” This says it all."

To endorse such a statement -- “The Billy Meier ‘evidence’ is now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down.” -- shows that Keven Randle has next to zero ability to discern the true truth. Period.

Kevin, you really should prove this and if you cannot factually verify that Meier's evidence is 'now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down', feel free to publicly withdraw this second hand lie (from the likes of a known liar like Kal Korff, no less) as well as completely baselessly furthering such questionable 2nd hand lies.
It makes me wonder how many second hand lies you have furthered during your entire existence.

At the very least, admit you have done ZERO work on this 2nd hand baseless accusation. Since you tout yourself as a former honorable military man, own up to and correct your error(s).

RedTornado2008 said...

Mr Michael Horn, the answer is simple: Have those Pleiadian ships appear over the White House (or anywhere else with a large population of people) as Dr Randle suggests. That would prove Mr Meier's claim once and for all. Win-win for all involved!

Signifying Nothing said...

Kevin, you should leave all this up indefinitely. People need to see the wacky world of fruitcakery, fake bravado, and sock puppetry that defines Meierism. With that others can make an informed decision on the merits of this movement.

erickson said...

"I thought it silly of him to announce a debate without bothering to ask me."

To me it is similar to Horn's tactic of asking people to respond to claims, and if they do not, taking it as an "admission that their previous assessments were wrong." There are some things that are worth debating and some that are not. Horn seems to delight in setting things up, at least in his mind, to claim that skeptics have backed down or are afraid. If you are said to have "effectively endorsed the Meier case by failing to rebut the evidence" or debate Horn, then certainly you are not alone.

cda said...

MH wrote:

"To be clear, anyone can corroborate the claims that I absolutely stand by exactly what the actual evidence substantiates: The Billy Meier contacts are the only scientifically proven, still ongoing UFO contacts, now spanning more than 75 years."

If it is indeed "scientifically proven" and has been going on for over 75 years, this would mean it began at least 5 years BEFORE the infamous Roswell case. Therefor we should now say "Roswell: move over, and make way for a scientifically proven ET visit that predates you by half a decade".

To the best of my knowledge Roswell has never been "scientifically proven" and Kevin will agree on this, I believe.

We thus need to rewrite UFO history completely. Who will offer to undertake this task?

By the way, exactly how old was Billy when his contacts began?

KRandle said...

All -

Here are a few thoughts...

I did link to a pro-Meier site when talking about the Paris attack predictions which refutes one of the claims.

Since I never agreed to a debate, there is nothing for me to back out of... and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

Why not have Michael Horn tell how much money he makes are is relates to the Meier promotion... okay, that's not exactly fair because I wouldn't reveal my financial positions either. Maybe just tell us if there is any financial reward for the promotion of Meier. Do you sell books, posters, take money for appearing at conferences and the like.

I have said before and I'll say it again. Present cogent, intelligent criticisms and I'll post them. Attack me personal such as one response that was libelous, and it won't see the light of day here.

Michael Horn said...

This is very simple. Kevin has indeed made spurious, inaccurate claims, and published ones from equally failed skeptics. He has disparaged and defamed Meier, so feeling wronged by my using words that are more accurate about his behavior is a bit disingenuous.

If Kevin had simply stated the three most valuable words in just about any field, including science, "I DON'T KNOW", this would simply be a matter of disagreement of opinions. It isn't. Kevin's not just stated his extremely uninformed and unsubstantiated opinions, he's effectively called Meier a liar, hoaxer, etc.

I hold him accountable for that and require him to substantiate it. Obviously - as people can tell here - I'm not the only person knowledgeable about the irrefutable and irreproducible, singularly authentic Meier case and its evidence. Most any of the pro-Meier people who've already commented here would also easily dismantle Kevin in a debate. But since I enjoy...educating people professionally, he gets to have the experience with me.

After all, I'm willing to be accountable for the words I use that Kevin finds "libelous"; let's see if they really are...or if they are accurate.

One of things that would be surprising here, if it wasn't so prevalent in the UFO community, is the anger, resistance, fear towards the Meier case. As also asked but in need of repeating:

DON'T YOU PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH, WHATEVER IT MAY BE?

Our debate will contribute to that.

As for making money, I'm sure it will please everyone to know that I do ALL my work on the Meier case for...free, gratis, nights, nada. I invest in the production of my films, DVDs, etc., and, as a good self-responsible individual, I make these available - not compulsory - to interested parties, along with Meier's books. The only exceptions are if/when I'm hired to make a presentation which, as Kevin knows, isn't exactly a get rich situation.

Happy?

Michael Horn said...

@cda Meier was 5 years old at the time of his first contacts, which continue to this day, more than 75 years later.

His first extraterrestrial mentor, Sfath, also set down, in a number letters, specific predictions dating back to...1946, some of which we have posted on my blog.

The most disturbing element for many, who can now actually read the "handwriting on the wall", is that these were NOT prophecies, i.e. things that COULD happen if the humankind of Earth didn't change and make some serious course corrections. These were obtained, as Meier told me recently, by...time travel, meaning they were events that did/will occur...with certainty.

There is nothing to believe here. Any logical, objective, scientifically minded person can look through these - and many more of the prophecies and predictions - and notice that there are many events that have already occurred well AFTER the first provable publication of the prophecies and predictions, some of which are in books and documents and some online.

Ray Palm (Ray X) said...

Why bother to debate someone who does a great job proving the dubiosity of his beliefs?

Matt Knight said...

I've finally realised what Mahesh's problem is. He obviously has never experienced life in a culture where making backdated books to fool the public would be taken very seriously by authorities and would be a punishable crime if it were true. Switzerland is not the kind of country where anyone can make cheap knock-off T-shirts, passports, websites, or, blogs and claim they have real value.

As for Meier not wanting to give out any more evidence. Firstly, anyone with any adult sense of the world would know that those with this material would be swooped upon and their lives immediately endangered and that's if they could get the material back for testing and the right people to agree to test in the first place.

Here's first hand video testimony from Jim Dilettoso that he did test Meier's original negatives and they passed, but, you won't find any reference to this on BUMFOR. Why not? https://youtu.be/0uz1z5OEIm8?t=1m41s

As for not responding to Michael Horn's request to debate what you wrote, Kevin has the following gem, "There is no point in a debate". Of course, the fact that the developed brain evolved out of various forms of debate, as did civilisation, will probably sit well those not fully appreciative of that and concerned only with promoting "opinion" gossip and unsubstantiated lies.




Michael Horn said...

To follow up on Matt's correct assessment of Mahesh's problems in part stemming from lack of experience with a culture such as Switzerland, Mahesh fails to understand the mechanism of pre-digital book publishing, where it was common for books to take a year - or even years - to be published.

The fact also that many of us had the original 1,800 pages of the first English language translations of the Contact Reports, further scuttles his already badly leaking barge, adding to his woefully unprofessional dismissal of the careful consideration of means, motive and opportunity (MMO).

Something else people should notice is that we could literally flood any blog with endless UFO photos, films, etc., and countless pages of evidence, analyses, etc.

Yes, for all the fuss about Roswell (an event that we accept as genuine) there isn't ONE single photo or piece of ANY kind evidence to even debate!

So, for any sincere truth seekers here, don't you want to decide the veracity and validity of the Meier case yourselves? And don't you look forward to Kevin making a clear, credible, substantiated counter case in debate...unless of course he now realizes the impossibility of that and would like to participate in a critical examination of the evidence instead?

Michael Horn said...

Regarding Mahesh, ironically, this morning I had call from a retired federal OSI investigator, who I’ve been in contact with since January 2017. He’s also a retired police detective, with a long career overall in law enforcement and…investigation.

When he originally contacted me, he was very skeptical of the Meier case. This morning’s conversation was therefore quite interesting because…he was the one telling me that Meier’s evidence from 1964 in India - which was written up by a credible reporter in a prominent newspaper then - was one of the strongest pieces of evidence he’d ever seen.

In fact, he said that, as a professional investigator - something far, far and away above Mahesh’s pay grade - he couldn’t account for, he couldn’t even postulate, a credible way for Meier to have faked this evidence, based on all known and established circumstances.

Since I’m also familiar with the rather ancient kind of camera Meier used, of course I concurred. While only about 11 of the 80 photographs that the reporter had seen and commented about remain, they are quite good, with the one where the hologram of a cross was generated above Meier’s head being mind-blowing. It was indeed one that the reporter had remarked about…53 years ago (See: http://www.theyfly.com/india-1964).

Additionally, this man said that while he had also initially doubted Phobol Cheng’s account of the UFOs, etc., he now had considered a number of other factors and concluded that she, too, was most likely telling the truth.

As I’ve said before, don’t all of you also want to know the truth?

Signifying Nothing said...

I am challenging Michael Horn to a debate over who has shown more courage (aka a lack of cowardice) in life, Michael Horn or Kevin Randles. We can find a mutually agreeable program to host the debate.

My position is that Kevin Randles has definitely shown more courage. I am assuming Michael Horn will argue for his side, but perhaps not.

It's true that I haven't seen Michael Horn's DD214, but I'm going to channel my inner Plejeran and assume that it's as tasty as a big chicken dinner.

Michael Horn must accept or that means he's a coward apparently.

Michael Horn said...

I'd like to propose some possible solutions to the problem. It's obvious that Kevin doesn't want to debate because he truly doesn't know the information well enough to do so. So, here are some options:

1. Since he can’t substantiate them, Kevin could simply retract his claims, and the ones he published from other people, that the Meier case is a hoax and that Billy Meier has falsified evidence, etc.

2. That being acknowledged, he could choose to do his own research into the evidence, prophetic information, etc., perhaps with the help of his supporters here. We could then debate the matter once he felt he was sufficiently informed and prepared to do so, should he still feel that this is not an authentic case.

3. If he felt that after doing his research there really wasn't any credible way to describe the Meier case as fraudulent, he could state as much. Then he could choose to discuss, rather then debate it, or simply retract the erroneous and unsubstantiated opinions.

Perhaps there is another option here that I have not foreseen. Certainly, if we are looking to find the truth, we don't want to let stand, let alone promote, defamatory, unsubstantiated and inaccurate claims and attacks against a person\.

None of us would want that if it was directed at us!

People of good character don’t want to defame other people and would move to correct such things if/when they occurred and were brought to their attention.

I look forward to Kevin's response, and any other creative suggestions from the participants on this blog, so that we could have a positive and just resolution of the disagreement.

JC said...

Ufo Bust
https://youtu.be/HxHt-R687pE

albert said...

All of this seems to be 'truth by proclamation'.

It's bad enough coming from the MSM, but intolerable coming from the UFO fringe.

It's as tiresome and non-productive as the same old arguments perpetrated forever onward.

@Michael, Billy is getting on. You should set up the Billy Meier Church soon. Like all religions, it'll be a gift that keeps on giving.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Meier

. .. . .. --- ....

Lance said...

This podcast demonstrates the deceitful way that Horn (one of the worst trolls on the internet) operates:

https://www.theparacast.com/podcast/july-11-2006-michael-horn/

There should be no questions after you hear this.

LBP said...

I bought Meier's coffee table book of photos when it first came out and have halfheartedly followed the case ever since. If it's a 100% hoax, it's a damn good and extremely elaborate one for a one-armed Swiss farmer. My guess would be that it is partly authentic (whatever THAT might mean in the context of something this bizarre), partly delusional (on the part of Meier and his cult followers) and partly a hoax (to keep it alive all these years). The "authentic" part might be 1% or 20% and might be "authentic" in a sense having nothing to do with Pleiadians or beamships.

At this point, any publicity is good publicity for Meier. I really don't understand why Kevin would dive into this. It's the perfect illustration of the old saying about wrestling with a pig: you both end up covered with mud, but the pig enjoys it. Attacking Meier just plays into his hands.

KRandle said...

I have seen nothing in the various websites I have visited, in the information presented, or in the arguments made that would suggest that I have been misinformed about the totality of the Meier case or the state of the evidence of it. I stand by my earlier comments.

Ray Palm (Ray X) said...

This comment by Paul Kimball sums it up:

Welcome to the "Michael Horn will spam you until you block him" club, Kevin.

Michael Horn said...

Sig N,

Why don't we start with step one, which is - to explain it one more time in the simplest of terms - Kevin has slander/defamed a man and he needs to back it up or retract it. As you can see, I've suggested some possibilities for him.

It's Kevin's responsibility to address and resolve the issue, which is his defamation based on other people's dubious tales and his own admitted lack of any research.

BTW, citing the Parasites show isn't particularly smart...since they were proved wrong through independent expert photographic analysis, of course.

Again, on with the debate or the retraction, is what it boils down to. While Kevin may be enjoying seeing a blog here that finally has some activity, now's the time to man up. I'm sure that, whatever the outcome, there will be people who will be interested in discussing it.

And for the anonymous attackers who post here, you might try raising the tone and quality of your comments, so that people don't think that all Americans (assuming most here are) are failed, vicious nobodies who are intellectually bankrupt, and desperately short on character. If you can't use your real identity because you're a sniveling coward, you're really not helping Kevin either.

Michael Horn said...

Having just seen Kevin say that he stands by his comments, he is now obligated to defend them, since they're slanderous and defamatory, as well as inaccurate of course.

Hiding behind a soldier's uniform won't cut it.

Debate: Man up - or wimp out.

Michael Horn said...

Reviewing the comments, it appears that Kevin's supporters don't want him to debate, which simply means that they know he can't defend his position and they don't want to see him get mopped up by someone who can.

albert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
albert said...

@Michael,

"...Having just seen Kevin say that he stands by his comments, he is now obligated to defend them, since they're slanderous and defamatory, as well as inaccurate of course..."

Forget my previous question, It's clear you're referring to Kevin,

I reread Kevins post. There's nothing 'slanderous' or 'defamatory' in it. Nothing. Kevin is stating his -opinion-, which is his Constitutional right.

You, however, are accusing him of slander and defamation with no proof.

So man up, and apologize.

. .. . .. --- ....

Matt Knight said...

"I can’t tell you the number of times that I have asked someone for their military records to support their claims of military service and get a similar answer when they say that they have done so and to do so again is pointless."

If a senior officer told Kevin that the one claiming military service were who they say they were, that they had seen their military service records, would Kevin doubt, even, ignore that senior officer? That's exactly what he and all these know-it-all UFO amateurs do when ignoring the REAL scientists who tested and authenticated Meier's evidence: http://theyfly.com/Scientific_Experts.html

cda said...

Billy Meier deserves credit for one thing - his case is surely the longest standing UFO story still extant, and with the principal witness still alive to tell the world about it.

The Roswell tale is a mere 70 years old. The Meier tale is a vast improvement on this, being 'live' after 75 years!

And none of the abduction tales have lasted this length of time, either. So let us be thankful for this great achievement.

Michael Horn said...

cda,

Roswell is exactly that a...tale. No remaining evidence, not one photo, not one piece of metal, etc. As Matt points out, top level scientists have ALREADY authenticated Meier's evidence...and did so again recently.

So what we have here is someone who wants to peddle books on a very tall tale, suppress the real truth by relying on OTHER people's long debunked attacks...and keep people as far away from finding the truth as possible.

He cites, relies on and hosts lies, and defamatory comments effectively endorsing them. So why hasn't Kevin decided to settle the actual dispute if he thinks he knows what he's talking about?

My guess is that he thinks it will all fade away because people have short attention spans, etc. But it shows lack of character, which has a way of coming back to haunt people.

Signifying Nothing said...

Looks like Michael Horn has declined to debate me. By his standards, this is cowardice as well as an admission that he is a coward.

Kudos to Horn for admitting so publicly!

I'm going to move on to some serious material, probably the Adamski case.

Farewell Meierites! Please continue to show Kevin's readers your exemplary mental balance as well as lack of sociopathic tendencies.

Au revoir,
Chaim Schmuelson

Paul Young said...

I'm a long standing fan of this blog (from the beginning, in fact) but I can honestly say this is the most entertaining thread for a good long while now.

So, it starts from an earlier blog where Kevin Randle criticises MUFON for being overly welcoming (and non-critical) toward seemingly ridiculous stories.

Up pops Mr Horn (pun not intended) who is also critical of MUFON...but from a completely different angle!
He's annoyed that MUFON don't think the story he champions (Billy Meier) is daft enough to get a mention!

This is like the Groucho Marx quote "I don't want to belong to a club that will accept people like me as a member"... BUT IN REVERSE!

Chuckle. Wonderful pantomime. I tell you...you really couldn't pay for comedy as fine as this!

Michael Horn said...

Paul,

Unfortunately, Kevin censors my remarks rebutting his nonsense and points to no specifics to support the defamations he endorses.

You can't and don't either.

Let's see how it plays out in the debate.

Michael Horn said...

An obvious reason for Kevin getting weak in the knees and behaving like a scared kid hiding behind his mother's skirt is that, in the military, you can participate with, and rely on, others to protect and help you. When you have to stand up and man up on your own - after you’ve born false witness against someone - you’re all alone, facing the truth.

That scares “paper tigers” and pretend heroes a lot.

And he sure isn’t going to get any help from the girls here.

Unknown said...

When is a Pleidian light ship going to hover over in broad day light over New York city?

Ed V. said...

Debating Michael Horn is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how well you play the pigeon is going to shit all over the board and than parade around like it won.

Mr. Sweepy! said...

Kevin,

Mr. Horn found my business email address and wrote about Meier. Clearly I thought his actions was unprofessional and took offense to this. Mr. Horn is looking for new followers for his beliefs in Meier and is raiding your blog for warm bodies and gullible minds. I am not interested in this case or hearing from Mr. Horn.

I am only interested in the cases from in your books and blogs Kevin mainly because of your honesty and professionalism.

Michael Horn said...

@ "Signifying Nothing",

There are appears to be a misunderstanding here. I debate...real people, not screen names, on real issues. If you think you actually have a real issue - let alone a real, verifiable name and identity - then start to present all of it. We can see if you and it warrants a debate.

But I'm just a tad suspect of, presumably real, human beings who issue challenges about courage...but are too cowardly to do so as their real, authentic selves.

@Unknown,

How would you even know if a so-called "Pleidian light ship" hovered ver NYC? Would you be able to see it in broad daylight? Would you be looking for it, everyday and everywhere over NYC?

@ Ed V.,

You demonstrate a great familiarity with pigeon shit. On that you are certainly checkmating everyone.

Paul Kimball said...

Am I the only one that that finds it odd that the supposedly super advanced and all-wise Plejaren haven't bothered to teach Michael horn some manners or self-control, or at the very least prevailed upon him to let go of the blatant misogyny inherent in his junior-high school style bravado?

Michael Horn said...

Now it's..."misogyny", where'd he come up with that silliness? I guess he never checked this out: www.breakingthesilencemovie.com

And this is the guy who says he knows what he saw?

Listen, Paul, etc., you can listen in to tonight's debate and then, if you or anyone here thinks they're qualified to do a better job than Kevin, we can probably set that up too.

Unfortunately though, what Paul thinks he "knows" is too inconsequential to bother with and perhaps this is where the Sweepster can help to...clean house of these poseurs.

KRandle said...

Michael -

What debate would that be? I've agreed to no debate for tonight.

Michael Horn said...

Really, Kevin won't be there?

Not to worry, I have all of your exact words that will represent, or indict, you without any ambiguity, misrepresentation, etc. - which, of course is more than I can say about the lies you spread about Billy Meier here.

You can always contact Rob and...man up.

Nitram Ang said...

Needless to add, as has been explained to others on many occasion...
"THIS IS NOT A DEBATE - IT IS AN INVESTIGATION"

Michael Horn said...

If...those here would actually engage in a real investigation, rather than meaningless and completely uninformed and unsubstantiated opinions, it would refreshing.

Tune in tonight for some...FACTS.

Bombastic Bill said...

Michael, point to one thing that Meier has done that has benefited humanity (and of course I do not mean monetarily)? If Meier is truly in contact with super advanced beings why have they not done anything? From something as big as curing someone with cancer to even curing somebody of hair loss? Why do these space beings only seem to want to benefit Billy and his chosen disciples?

Michael Horn said...

B. Bill,

Since you, like Kevin, are completely lacking in actual research and investigation into the Meier case, it's abundant physical evidence and the over 26,000 pages of information (including over 200 specific examples of prophetically accurate scientific and world event related information) I suggest that you too BEGIN your study and determine for yourself the answer to your question...instead of looking to nit-pick whatever I'd say.

You can hear last night's debate (I debated EXACTLY what Kevin said in writing) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw4qzdzf-0s&feature=youtu.be

BTW, is it just a particularly American phenomenon that automatically presumes negatives, makes assumptions (non-existent disciples, for one example) and automatically...attacks, rather than genuinely and neutrally inquires?

Paul Kimball said...

Good news, Kevin: You won the "debate" last night on the X-one simply by not showing up.

PK

Matt Knight said...

Ed. V
That exact same comment, again? Maybe stop playing chess with Pigeons? It's called evolution. Meier has a lot of info on that, if you're up for a fair challenge and have had a chance to shower.

Nitram Ang
After a thorough investigation, the jury debate the findings to reach a final verdict. Think, like Kevin, Signifying Nothing and your name, you have it all backwards, only there was no debate.

Bombastic Bill
I mean... look at your photo! Maybe go see Meier and get your face sorted out? That'd be something & he'd be happy to help, for free, even with only one, very strong, arm.

Dougall said...

If you can't handle hundreds of pre-digital, clear, daytime photos of Plejaren beamships, 34 films, 125 eye witnesses, footprints, fingerprints, sound recordings, and many other thousands of pages of printed material, then you are too stupid to ever be convinced. That is why the Plejaren stopped bothering to allow themselves be filmed and photographed. There is no other UFO case in the world that has ANY evidence that compares to the Meier contacts. Every critic above has already had their questions answered in the contact reports, but they are too stupid and lazy to read the information and find the truth themselves. It's called self responsibility, and none of you critics have it yet.

KRandle said...

Michael -

The burden of proof lies with you... all you have proved is that a vast number of trees died for the ramblings of Billy Meier.

and Dougall -

Is insulting everyone who does not agree with you a viable strategy? Every critic has not had his questions answer and this idea that they wanted Billy Meier to take lots of pictures to prove their existence, but didn't bother to show up to be exposed to an independent audience with dozens of TV cameras rolling is ridiculous.

I will say that from this point, any post that is not cordial in its tone, free from insults will not see the light of day here.

Arguing by way of proclamation is not a proper strategy which is about all I see from your side... Twenty-six thousand of pages is not evidence, it is a number of pages... Dozens of the photographs have been exposed and now we learn that some governmental or secret agency is responsible for creating them and planting them on Meier. It is interesting that the evidence of a hoax is ignored or some sort of silly excuse is offered.

KRandle said...

Michael -

Well, you're both right and wrong. I'm not posting your latest because of the nasty tone. But, if you read this blog, you know that I often post comments that are critical. Free and open exchange of ideas without the unnecessary bullying. Tone it down, no problem. Fail and well, fail.

Nitram Ang said...

Hi Matt

You are nearly right...

After a thorough investigation, the jury discuss the findings to reach a final verdict...

cda said...

It gets curiouser & curiouser.

We now hear that some US government agency planted documents & photos on Meier. But for deacdes we have been told this same government has suppressed the truth about Roswell, and even threatened witnesses with death.

So the same government that wants to keep the lid firmly shut on Roswell also plants phony evidence to support Meier and his contacts. (Meier, I assume, is not even a US citizen).

Have I got this right? Are there really hundreds of clear photos, 34 films, 125 eye witnesses plus numerous footprints, fingerprints, sound recordings and thousands of pages of documentation of the Meier case? Whew!

Poor old Roswell. Its promoters tried very hard, but have well and truly lost the game.

By the way, Adamski managed to supply footprints, didn't he? Plaster casts I believe. But nothing else to match Billy Meier in any way.

Matt Knight said...

Nitram Ang

The jury discuss, debate; in actuality, deliberate (you were nearly right).

Word it how you want, Kevin doesn't even want to "discuss" these so-called, already explained, one-sided, findings with Michael Horn, but, he expects professional courtesy for Michael calling for some form of discussion after Kevin ignored all the evidence in this case and made no reference to it, to opposing views, so as to qualify as a balanced argument and thorough investigation.

As I say, you've still got the process all backwards with no deliberation whatsoever. Just flawed opinions based on the flawed conclusions of a hateful man who had no problem stealing all of Michael Horn's copyrighted books and films and giving it for free, illegally, on his hidden website. Basically he's a thief and you think his information is reliable, whereas Meier's counters are not to be trusted, despite his impeccable character, because BUMFOR says so.

My sympathies to anyone who has Kevin, et al as their jurors.

Paul Kimball said...

I ran for office here in Nova Scotia earlier this year. People were amazed that I took any and all attacks in stride, with a sense of humour and grace. A fellow candidate asked me how I managed to stay so even-keeled. I just replied that having dealt with some of the worst UFO super-duper true believers (i.e. cultists) over the years, the political stuff was smooth sailing in comparison.

The latest example comes from the "always desperate for attention" Michael Horn (who has been taking the occasional pot shot at me for years):

https://theyflyblog.com/2017/07/19/the-war-on-the-truth/

Kevin, looks like you and I have something in common. :-)