Saturday, May 03, 2014

The Last of the Roswell Witnesses


Just the other day I saw or read something that suggested that the Roswell investigation has transitioned into a new phase with the recent and untimely death of Jesse Marcel, Jr. It was suggested that he was the last of the first-hand witnesses, having held the metallic debris and having heard about the find on the Brazel (Foster) ranch from his Army Air Forces intelligence officer father.

But I realized that this isn’t true. While I know that this will generate discussions that have little to do with the posting (I mean look how far afield some of the others have roamed), I would suggest that there are still some first-hand witnesses alive.

The first one who springs to mind first is Frankie Rowe. As a twelve-year-old girl during that July of 1947, she had the opportunity to handle a piece of metallic debris found by a state police officer. She also heard the story of the crash from her father who had driven out to the crash site on his own… which explains why there was no record of the Roswell Fire Department involvement. And please remember that this was confirmed by a member of the Fire Department in interviews conducted by both Tony Bragalia and me (and no, we really don’t have to go through all that again, this simply means that whatever you think of the tale, Frankie didn’t invent it, which also doesn’t mean it was grounded in reality… I’m just trying to prevent the round robin arguments that this can generate.)

I also think of Sally Tadolini, daughter of Marian Strickland, who handled a bit of material recovered by Bill Brazel. Brazel had brought it by and showed it to a number of people. Tadolini signed an affidavit about this, including a description of the debris that when fully read doesn’t suggest something of an earthly manufacture. And yes, I know that signing an affidavit doesn’t make it true, but it does provide us with a concise description of the event. There really should be little dispute about this. There is no indication that Tadolini is not telling the truth… the dispute is about the origin of the material that she saw.

Both of these women were shown bits of metallic debris and both are still living. True, they didn’t see anything quite as dramatic as that suggested by Jesse Marcel, but they did see something that was different enough and exciting enough that they remember the event. We can argue about the reliability of now more than sixty-year-old memories later.

I will note that in the last year or so Tony, Tom Carey and I have talked with a number of the men who were stationed at Roswell in 1947 and who were lower ranking which, in many cases simply meant younger. One of them, who was 87 when I talked to him told me that everything was, “Hush hush. They told us to keep our mouths shut.”

He also said, “Everything was highly classified.”

Which, of course, could mean many things and he provided no new information. We were talking about the crash and the like, so I can say with some confidence that his comments were related to that. But learning only that something was highly classified, especially at the only atomic strike force in the world at the time, doesn’t move us any closer to learning what happened.

Other interviews have contained the same sort of information. We can conclude that something happened and the soldiers were warned about talking too freely. Others said they remembered nothing or heard nothing and weren’t involved.

The point is simply that with the loss of Jesse Marcel, we see the end of the road. The numbers of witnesses to the events are slipping away and we are left with the descendants who heard the stories from those first-hand witnesses. We haven’t reached the end of that road yet, but time is not on our side. I just wanted to correct that statement that we have no one left. 

94 comments:

Frank Stalter said...

And so it becomes a different kind of research into a different aspect of the incident. From the first time I read Tony's work a few years back, I knew he had the right idea: essentially a serious, and I emphasize serious, look at reverse engineering.

Don said...

Kevin: "Tadolini signed an affidavit about this, including a description of the debris that when fully read doesn’t suggest something of an earthly manufacture."

It is the most interesting description I've read. She states she was interested in sewing and fabrics, and she describes the material in fabric terms.

She considers it for its 'hand', 'drape' and 'wrinkle-index'. By these fabric standards, it was the lack of drape that was unusual.

Iow, it was its stiff sheet state that was unusual, not its wrinkle-index. It didn't drape.

Regards,

Don

David Rudiak said...

Don,

I have Tadolini's affidavit here:

http://www.roswellproof.com/tadolini.html

Relevant excerpt about circumstances of viewing and unusual properties:

...6) A week or so after all the excitement, Mac's son Bill... stopped by our house. He had someone with him, and while I am not absolutely certain, I think it was his brother Vernon, who was my age. We--my father, brothers, myself, and possibly my mother--sat at the kitchen table with them. Bill showed us a piece of the thing his father had found, and he asked us not to say anything about it.

(7) What Bill showed us was a piece of what I still think of as fabric. It was something like aluminum foil, something like satin, something like well-tanned leather in its toughness, yet it was not precisely like any one of these materials... It was about the thickness of very fine kidskin glove leather and a full metallic grayish silver, one side slightly darker than the other...

(8) Bill passed it around, and we all felt ...it. I did a lot of sewing, so the feel made a great impression on me. It felt like no fabric I have touched before or since. It was very silky or satiny, with the same texture on both sides. Yet when I crumpled it in my hands, the feel was like that you notice when you crumple a leather glove in your hand. When it was released, it sprang back into its original shape, quickly flattening out with no wrinkles. I did this several times, as did the others. I remember some of the others stretching it between their hands and "popping" it, but I do not think anyone tried to cut or tear it.
---------------------
Tadolini, like Frankie Rowe and a number of others, was describing the anomalous memory property of the material. The description of resembling fabric is almost unique but not quite. Intel officer Jesse Marcel, in his final interview with Linda Corley, also said it seemed to be a type of fabric in that he could blow through it.

http://www.roswellproof.com/debris2_memory_foil.html#anchor_3605

"...the material was unusual. Of course the Air Force called it a balloon. It couldn't have been. It was porous. It couldn't hold any air. The material was a fabric... I tried to blow though it. It would go right through it. I tried to blow it with my mouth." [Corley asking for clarification: "What piece? That foil looking stuff?"] "No, no. ...what looked like balloon material. A cloth. ...It wouldn't hold any air. ...it's a cloth-like material, but it was also metallic. ...It was a metallic cloth. It [air] would go right through it. I even tried to burn it. It wouldn't burn. ...a balloon has to have ...gas to go up in the air -- even hot air. This could not hold anything like that. It was porous."

David Rudiak said...

Another metallic, cloth-like material witness I forgot, S/Sgt. Earl Fulford. He also mentioned stiffness and memory properties like Tadolini (notice similarity of descriptions). Fulford claimed he saw and handled the stuff as part of clean-up detail taken out to the debris field (the only such witness I know of that has been found), guarded by armed MPs. He said he found several pieces of the stuff, all of which had to be turned in:

http://www.roswellproof.com/debris2_memory_foil.html#anchor_25

"It felt more like a cloth, but it looked metallic.. It was about like bending cardboard. You bend a piece of cardboard and it might come back out a little. But this would come back in a perfect, flat position with no crease marks or no damage left whatsoever."

Don said...

Thanks David, I'd forgotten the Corley interview. and didn't know about the Fulford comment.

Would you say most of the witness statements and most published material and the 'mindset' of the authors (and online discussion, too) focus on its resemblance to
"foil" and not "fabric"? If so, we may have three references that are independent of one another. No way to be certain, but the impression of "fabric" is the minority report and therefore of interest, if for no other reason than its rarity.

Best Regards,

Don

Lance said...

Which of these descriptions is supported by documentation dated prior to 1950? 1960? 1970? 1980?

The testimonies that are accepted by the Roswell faithful as "documentation" or "reference" (and then hilariously cross-referenced as though one interview supports another) are unsupported by ANY sort of contemporaneous documentation.

I realize that this isn't a problem for saucer buffs. For some folks, there is nothing that will ever contraindicate saucer belief.

The silly story depends upon pieces of the space foil begin all over the place in the most sloppy manner imaginable right up until the imaginary gigantic conspiracy takes place and the big cover up begins.

A cover up that the base intelligence officer (and star Rowell saint) knew NOTHING about!

So we have a super sloppy pretend conspiracy at first that became magically ironclad later leaving not one single supporting document.

Makes sense.

Seems legit.

Lance


cda said...

Kevin:

What exactly is a first-hand witness in the Roswell case? How do you define 'first-hand' here?

You have nobody who saw the crash or even saw the object in the sky. (There is not the slightest reason for thinking the Wilmots or the nuns witnessed anything connected with the debris found in the desert, is there?)

And if nobody can be found who actually witnessed the crash (if 'crash' it was), there are only those who went out to the site and recovered the debris who can legitimately be called 'first-hand'. And apart from Jesse Marcel sr, you have to rely on 30 to 50-year old testimony to find out who they were, and then trust their truthfulness or memory recall, i.e. Cavitt, Rickett etc.

There is no way Frankie Rowe or Sally Tadolini can be called 'first-hand'. They merely handled a SMALL FRAGMENT of the stuff that was brought home to them, whatever its true nature was. Even Jesse Marcel jr was not a first-hand witness, nor were any of the guys who claim to have seen the debris at the base. They might be first-hand witnesses to the debris, but certainly not to the actual UFO event.

You have a permanent problem here, and it won't go away. This problem can be stated thus: There is absolutely nobody, to this day, who saw the object(s) either land or crash.

Lance said...

I recently had an "argument" with Dennis Balthaser about this very topic. He calls Art McQuiddy, the newspaper editor, a first hand witness. I asked how he could possibly use this term for someone so obviously not a first hand witness.

Balthaser's answer (along with a lot of funny bluster) seems to be that McQuiddy spoke with first hand witnesses so that makes him a first hand witness, too!

Another example of how Roswell believers think.

I think the term "first hand" is thrown around so much because of the abject lack of any sort of evidence beyond hazy and dubious witness testimony. UFO believers can never resist the urge to gin up their stories to make them appear more important or plausible. We used to hear much more about Roswell first hand witnesses who saw a crashed craft and bodies at the various pretend crash sites. I think every single one of those witnesses has now been discarded as a fraud ( Are their crash sites also discarded? I have trouble keeping up with the story as it is forced to mutate with every exposed lie.)

A formal debate of Roswell would not be pretty for the believers...I don't think regular folks would miss or ignore the desperate need to make the myth work at all costs even in the face of dubious or non-existent evidence.

Best,

Lance

Don said...

I've often enough made known my objection to the stupidity of 'debating' Roswell or any similar event by playing a trollish game, call it 'Courtroom'. I'm criticizing skeptics and advocates both.

Kevin, didn't Balthaser interview McQuiddy over the past year? I may be wrong, but I thought Kellahin was still with us, or at least he was a few years ago. Anyway, I thought I saw a later interview of him.

Speaking of Kellahin, his recollection that the RDR interviewer was named "Skeritt" could have been Edward L. Scarritt, city editor at the RDR, at least in the 1930s. However, if it were a younger relative, he might still be alive. There are odds Scarritts still live in the Roswell region.

Regards,

Don

KRandle said...

Lance -

I knew you would be unable to restrain yourself... If I wanted to drag this into another arena, I could mention that the debunkers know that Mogul was the cause even though Flight No. 4 was cancelled and Moore's launch time for the cluster evolved so that he could "massage" the figures to take it near the Brazel ranch... but that is a discussion for another time.

I could also point out that most of the affidavits taken were taken more than 20 years ago before the explosion of Roswell information so that cross contamination is not as big an issue as today, but again, an argument for another time.

CDA -

Your question is a fair one and I tried to make it clear in the posting. When I suggest that Frankie Rowe or Sally Tadolini are first-hand witnesses, it means that they handled debris. If you or Lance wish to put alleged in front of that, I'm cool with it.

When you get to their stories about what others saw or did (Frankie talking about what her father told her) that moves it into the realm of second hand. Not as important as first hand and problematic at best.

So, to clarify again, when they take about handling debris, that is first hand... did it come from the crash site? Their answers that it did, is second hand because they weren't there when it was picked up.

I will note here that William Woody talked of seeing something in the sky falling to the ground and that he and his father went out to look for it later. Woody said that they ran into a road block that prevented them from driving too far on the dirt roads west of the main highway. Woody would be a first-hand witness to something in the sky and the guards to the west of the road.

Does this tie into the crash? The sighting in the sky is problematic until you get to their attemped search and that begins to define the time frame. I can say the same thing about Corporal Pyles who saw something in the sky during the first several days of July 1947.

But again, all this is off on a tangent. The posting merely suggested that Jesse Marcel, Jr. was not the last of the witnesses and there are several does who were assigned to the base in 1947 who are still alive.

Lance said...

Hi Kevin,

When you say "most of the affidavits taken were taken more than 20 years ago before the explosion of Roswell information," you mean circa 1993, right? Which would mean that the "explosion of Roswell information" was what, last year? Your statement strikes me as rather misleading.

1993 was long after the Roswell mythology had begun to take root in the public consciousness more than enough time for witnesses to get into the act using dubious "memories."

Again, no diary, no document, NOTHING indicating ANY portion of the Roswell myth except these decades later "testimonies" many coaxed out by highly biased UFO believers.

Additionally Marcel's mistake about the nature of the stuff he is holding in the photos as well as his complete lack of knowledge of the supposed magical coverup sinks Roswell for rational people right out of the gate. I would be happy to demonstrate this in any debate.

Best,

Lance

KRandle said...

Lance -

No, I mean that in the early 1990s that if you asked people what Roswell meant to them, they might think of Roswell, Georgia. I meant that as the affidavits were collected, Roswell wasn't everywhere as it is today.

When the affidavits were collected, the opportunity for cross contamination wasn't as great as it is today, which is not to say that it didn't exist, or that those who had lived in Roswell in 1947 wouldn't have been more sensitive to information about the case, only that the case wasn't as widespread. Meant nothing sinister and made no attempt to mislead.

As for Marcel, he is not part of this discussion and it is clear from your posting that you are not interested in a discussion... It is something that should wait for another day.

Terry the Censor said...

> I knew he had the right idea: essentially a serious, and I emphasize serious, look at reverse engineering.

Oh, my God.

Lance said...

Again Kevin...isn't that misleading? You said decades BEFORE the explosion of Roswell information. 1993+20 is 2013!

While the absolute height of Roswell public interest may have been around 1994-1996, it was certainly a very well known story well before that. Several of your books had been out well before 1993--how many of the dubious witnesses might have heard the stories prior to 1993? I would guess near 100%.

Saying that 1993 was decades before the Roswell Information explosion is simply a false statement. Perhaps you don't mean that?

Lance

Don Maor said...

Lance said:

"Saying that 1993 was decades before the Roswell Information explosion is simply a false statement"

I think that Kevin's statement only lacks a comma. Pretty easy to discern it Lance>

Kevin wrote:
"were taken more than 20 years ago (Kevin, please add a comma exactly here or Lance will go crazy) before the explosion of Roswell information"
Regards,

Lance said...

Yes, I think Don is right about that. My apologies, if so.

Still, 1993 was well after the Roswell myth had taken hold.

Lance

KRandle said...

Lance -

For crying out loud, I tried to explain it to you and others seem to have understood what I meant. Many of the affidavits were collected in 1991 and 1992, before the explosion of information in 1994 and 1995... We have a document, created by Inez Wilcox that was written no later than 1989, which I can say because that was the year she died. It is undated, which is unfortunate, but it was clearly created before the publication of my book, and all those others.

Could she have been contaminated by the published information about Roswell? Of course, because we have no date on the document, it can be concluded that it was written after the publication of The Roswell Incident. It might not have been, but there is no way to prove it.

I now repeat, so that you might understand, that I am saying that the affivats were created more than 20 years ago. This was before the explosion of Roswell information. Could they be cross contaminated? Of course because they were collected after the publication of The Roswell Incident.

I will note, however, that I spoke to and recorded interviews with some of the witnesses prior to the NBC Unsolved Mysteries broadcast so that I can show what the people were saying prior to that... and I think we can mark the beginning of the Roswell "craze" at that point.

That doesn't mean that this proves cross contamination, only that it is possible but there are some other factors to be considered. Now if you wish to continue in this rather pointless contest based on a misplaced or absent comma, then I bow out now. If, on the other hand, you now understand my meaning, as practically everyone else did, then we can move on.

Don said...

Google News Archive used to provide some metadata in the form of a bar graph by time-frame of the search
term. I recall the graph for the search term 'Roswell'. There was one significant peak. That was the years 1995-1996. I was surprised how low the bars were before and how quickly they retreated after, for the newspapers in the Google databse.

Besides some books by Roswell ufo writers, there was a ten volume series of novels and a tv series based on them (or so I've read) after the peak. They did not do much to enhance 'Roswell's' penetration of the popular culture, it seems.

There was also a Roswell tv movie in 1994, which combined with the news stories about the 50th, probably launched Roswell to its "15 minutes" sometime between 1994-1997.

People who spend lots of time on ufo forums may have a different perception of
Roswell's popular recognition.

Of more consequence as for "contamination" or "false memories", in my opinion, was KSWS' noon bulletin (probably true as well for KGFL), about two and a half hours before the first wire story. Counting the RAAF, there may have been 30 thousand people who could have heard, or have heard of, the bulletins, including children. So, there should be a lot of hearsay to factor out, even from good and honest people.

Lance: "A cover up that the base intelligence officer (and star Rowell saint) knew NOTHING about!"

Marcel was G2. Who was A2 at the RAAF? Every 1947 case I've looked into involves the CIC and A2, not G2. Their relationship went back to the army's Counter Subversive Program during the war.

Regards,

Don

Lance said...

Don,

The cover-up, as presented by those who created it and continuously revise it, was known about by virtually every fireman, mortician, sergeant, private, nurse, etc. etc. in Roswell with roads supposedly closed and citizens warned away.

It appears that the only one who didn't know anything about it (as the ridiculous story goes) was the base intelligence officer, Marcel. He never heard even the slightest mention of it.

I know that UFO believers can rationalize just about anything to hold onto the religion but this is one of the biggest whoppers they have explain away.

Lance

Nitram Ang said...

Sorry to beat a dead horse and Don has already kinda beaten me too it anyway...

Roswell "exploded" if you like once the MOVIE based on one of the books by Kevin & Don Schmitt hit the small screen.

Just my opinion...

You have a point Lance, that any witness coming forward after that date (say 1994) would have access to other information to "assist" with their "story" - so yes, I agree it would be better if they came forward with the testimony in the late 1980's for example...

Lance, please remember this is NOT a "debate" - it is a "discussion" or as Kevin likes to say, an "investigation".

But we are getting off topic so will leave this for now...

KRandle said...

Don -

Marcel was the A2... the post intelligence officer because this was an Army Air Forces base. Had it been a ground unit, he would have been the G2. Those guys in the squadrons who had an additional duty were referred as S2.

The designations were based on the level the officer held, meaning his parent unit, and the organization he was in...

Oh, and given the size of the town, I doubt that your 30,000 figure is accurate. The radio stations didn't have much power...

Don said...

Kevin, the 1947 population of Roswelll town was about 20-25k. I don't know what the population of the RAAF was, but it was a very big base, I think. I don't know if any of the nine auxiliary Roswell fields were staffed in 1947, nor the other air field facilities in the area.

Thirty thousand seems a reasonable guess at the 1947 population in and around Roswell. I think the two radio stations could reach them, but possibly not the Carrizozo/Corona parts of Lincoln County. They weren't the only radio stations in the region, and KGFL wasn't the only station Whitmore Sr owned.

My point is the story was local through a popular mass media hours before it got on the wires and became national and international. It would be suspicious if there weren't hundreds who recalled the event. This is the other side of the skeptics 'silence over the decades, therefore Roswell was unknown until you investigators came along' argument.

Hundreds, and probably thousands, had known about it.

I realize I don't know where I got the "G2" thing, and thanks for criticizing it. I hate it when something wrong finds a spot in what I think I know.

Regards,

Don

cda said...

I wonder how many of those who heard the July 1947 'crashed disc' radio broadcast would have linked this up with the first book on the case whan it appeared in 1980 ("The Roswell Incident"), or in any of the subsequent publicity surrounding the book.

My point is that an awful lot of UFO sightings & activity had taken place in NM in the intervening years, inlcuding the long lasting green fireballs episode, the Aztec 'crash', publicised sightings at White Sands and so on. Any of these cases would affect people's memories of what took place, and what was said on radio, in 1947.

Therefore I do not really think many people around in the post-1980 period would have recalled that broadcast of decades before and that even if they did, they would have long forgotten the date and, most probably, the details of what was said. Neither did any of them, as far as is known, keep the press reports.

There would inevitably have been a lot of confusion in people's minds over that long ago broadcast.

Therefore Don's statement that "hundreds and probably thousands, had known about it" is highly dubious.

Of course once the 1980 book came out, all sorts of people would have suddenly 'remembered' the 1947 broadcast.

And Kevin has virtually conceded that there were in fact no first-hand witnesses at all - at least not using the strict definition of 'first-hand'.

starman said...

Many probably recalled the '47 broadcast, and details, because it was something at once novel, sensational and transpired in their area. Whereas most probably didn't pay much attention to subsequent UFO events, even in NM, often known only to UFOlogists. I doubt any (Aztec especially) generated anywhere near as much publicity.

Don said...

CDA: "Therefore Don's statement that "hundreds and probably thousands, had known about it" is highly dubious."

It is debatable but surely not dubious much less highly so.

"Of course once the 1980 book came out, all sorts of people would have suddenly 'remembered' the 1947 broadcast."

If you remove the 'mention' quotation marks around "'remembered'", I'd agree with you. Recollection of long past events requires some stimulus.

And others may not have known about the broadcasts or read the newspaper, but heard about it from others, especially children and those who lived in remote circumstances beyond the reach of mass media. One of the interesting things about the news stories is their insistence on Brazel's (or "the rancher") isolation from the mass media.

The world is full of people who are liars, pranksters, stupid, or insane, just not all of them. In fact, not hardly any of them.


Regards.

Don

Lance said...


The entirety of those claiming to have been first hand witnesses to a crash/bodies: frauds, liars, pranksters.

So just 100%.


Hardly any stupid people, huh?

Perhaps you might want to double check on that.

Lance

Don said...

Of interest is that it is the Roswell skeptics who have a problem with the obvious: that a series of radio broadcasts might have been heard by hundreds if not thousands of people in the Roswell region, which includes the RAAF.

Regards,

Don

Don said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cda said...

Don:

"One of the interesting things about the news stories is their insistence on Brazel's (or "the rancher") isolation from the mass media."

Was this in the newspapers at the time? Or was it something only told to investigators 30-35 years later?

If Brazel had indeed been isolated from the mass media, i.e. press and radio, he would hardly have given an interview to the RDR.

William Strathman said...

b"h

In the '70's I was stationed with a fellow from Roswell; both of us radar techs interested in science, space, etc. When he introduced himself he mentioned his hometown as "Roswell, where the saucer crashed." That would have been around '77. In those days I'd never heard of such a thing and I looked at him incredulously. He never mentioned it again. We were in our early twenties, so evidently Roswellians didn't completely forget about the incident.

cda said...

William:

You may have given yourself away here.

The word 'crash' was not used in any of the original accounts. Not until the Berlitz-Moore book came out in 1980.

Check your dates/times again. How positive are you that it was "around 1977" and not 1980?

Don said...

CDA "Was this in the newspapers at the time? Or was it something only told to investigators 30-35 years later?"

I was not clear: I meant Brazel's finding of the object, not that Brazel was kept away from the media at the time of his interview. I keep forgetting that everyone else is interested in other aspects of Roswell than I am.

I meant: for no known reason the press release points out Brazel's isolation (he didn't have a phone) and a few hours later Marcel will elaborate on this when he is reported to have said Brazel didn't have radio, either.

We learn Brazel did not know about the saucer wave until his Brother-in-Law mentioned it to him.

So, yes. It was in the newspapers.

Regards,

Don

William Strathman said...

b"h

cda: "The word 'crash' was not used in any of the original accounts."

??? So you have met everyone who ever lived in Roswell from '47 onward and know that no one ever used the term "crash" ???

Sorry if it disturbs any preconceived notions, but it was '77. I don't know if the guy actually believed there had been a crash or not, he simply told me as though it was Roswell's claim to fame, take it or leave it. That's it.

Jim Robinson said...

In the summer of 1947 I was living in Clovis,NM, located 110 miles NE of Roswell. I remember The green fireballs being very much in the news those days; there were headline articles about them in the local paper on several occasions. However, for whatever it's worth I can honestly say I never heard of the Roswell incident until I saw an article about it in the July 5, 1987 edition of the El Paso Times.

As for Mac Brazel being isolated from the media: I had an uncle living at that time on a 23-section ranch on the eastern bank of the Pecos river, less than 25 miles from Roswell. He had no radio or telephone, & didn't subscribe to any newspapers. As far as I know, he never heard of the Roswell Incident either. Since the Foster ranch is much more isolated, it is certainly reasonable to assume Brazel was also pretty oblivious to goings-on in the outside world.

Don said...

cda: "The word 'crash' was not used in any of the original accounts."

But the term "wreckage" was, and that does imply crash, especially of an aerial object -- yes, I know the Ft Worth story was that no one saw it in the air however it was referred to as a flying disc. It is not too difficult to conclude it crashed.

@Jim Robinson: Brazel was sort of isolated. He did go into Corona (and I would like to know if he went to Carrizozo, as well) according to the news stories, which is where he learned about the saucer wave from his brother-in-law, Hollis Wilson.

The point I made was that there was no reason for the press release to refer to Brazel's isolation, as if there were questions as to why he waited to report it, and this was the answer. Supposedly, the press release was de novo, the very first mention of the "incident". There is nothing I've found in the news stories to suggest anyone asked Marcel why Brazel waited some time to report his find to give him a reason to repeat Brazel had no phone and as well, didn't have a radio. It is just part of the news accounts, which are almost in total the product of the AAF.

The air force, and especially, 8th AAF Hq, was the official and authoritative source for the press. That includes, imo, the press release, and the Brazel interview.


Regards,

Don

David Rudiak said...

Just for the record, since it came up, population figures 1950 census:

Roswell, N.M. 26,700 (If base counted separately, then add another 3000-4000 people); Roswell almost doubled in size between 1940 (13,500 people) and 1950, probably because of the war and base, which provided jobs, plus growth of oil and gas industry. Population in 2010, 48,000, only about 9,000 more than 1980 when "Roswell Incident" came out.

Chavez County (contains Roswell): 40,600. (Grew from 24,000 in 1940) Chavez County 2010: 65,600. Outside of Roswell, there has hardly been any population growth in the county between 1950 and 2010, remaining open country with large ranches.

Lincoln County (where Foster Ranch was): 7400; 2010: 20,500

Potential population in immediate vicinity who may have heard about it in 1947 through direct participation, media reporting (radio/newspaper), and word-of-mouth: ~50,000

Larry said...

Lance wrote:
“…The entirety of those claiming to have been first hand witnesses to a crash/bodies: frauds, liars, pranksters. …. So just 100%.”

Help me understand exactly what you are claiming here. Are you claiming that you have examined 100% of those cases where claims were made to have seen a crash/bodies and found independent evidence in each case that proves they were all frauds, liars, or pranksters?

Or, are you claiming that a UFO crash with bodies is impossible, and therefore 100% of those claiming to have seen them must be frauds, liars, or pranksters?

Nitram Ang said...

Larry, pulling Lance into line, posted:

"Help me understand exactly what you are claiming here. Are you claiming that you have examined 100% of those cases where claims were made to have seen a crash/bodies and found independent evidence in each case that proves they were all frauds, liars, or pranksters?"

Good question - reckon Lance won't answer it...

Lance - maybe you can also tell us:

1. How many times have you been to Roswell?
2. How many first/second hand witnesses have you spoken to e.g. Frankie Rowe?

Lance said...

Larry,

The former to my satisfaction and relying on the work of others (like Kevin to a large extent).

Lance

David Rudiak said...

(Part 1 if 3)
Don: "One of the interesting things about the news stories is their insistence on Brazel's (or "the rancher") isolation from the mass media."

CDA ignorantly responded: “Was this in the newspapers at the time? Or was it something only told to investigators 30-35 years later?”

Yes, it was in the newspapers at the time. (Sheesh, almighty!) Here’s my main page guide to the multitude of news stories covering Roswell at the time:

http://www.roswellproof.com/press_coverage.html

First, what Brazel himself supposedly said:
http://www.roswellproof.com/brazel_interview.html

Roswell Daily Record account of interview with Brazel:
...on July 4 he, his wife, Vernon and a daughter, Betty, age 14, went back to the spot and gathered up quite a bit of the debris. The next day [Saturday, July 5] he first heard about the flying disks, and he wondered if what he had found might be the remnants of one of these."

AP account of Brazel interview by Jason Kellahin (many newspapers):
"Brazel said he hadn't heard of the 'flying discs' at the time, but several days later his brother-in-law, Hollis Wilson, told him of the disc reports, and suggested it might be one."

Shortly before that, down in Fort Worth, Marcel, under Gen. Ramey’s direct orders, was telling the following story:

Fort Worth Star-Telegram, July 9:
http://www.roswellproof.com/FortWorthST_July9.html

"Brazell [sic], whose ranch is 30 miles from the nearest telephone and has no radio, knew nothing about flying discs" when he found the remains of the weather device scattered over a square mile of his property three weeks ago... On a trip to town Saturday night to Corona, N.M., Brazell heard the first reference to the 'silver flying disks,' Major Marcel related at General Ramey's headquarters here... 'The ranch is out in the middle of nowhere,' Marcel declared,"

Associated Press stories (one example story from thousands of newspapers that carried AP versions), obviously derived from FWST story:

http://www.roswellproof.com/AP3_Main_July9.html
http://www.roswellproof.com/RMD_July9.html

"It had been found three weeks previously by a New Mexico rancher, W. W. Brazell [sic], on his property about 85 miles northwest of Roswell. Brazell, whose ranch is 30 miles from the nearest telephone and has no radio, knew nothing about flying discs when he found the broken remains of the weather device scattered over a square mile of his land... On a trip to town at Corona, N.M., Saturday night, Brazell heard the first reference to the 'silver' flying disks, Maj. Marcel related..."

Canadian Press (obviously derived from AP):
http://www.roswellproof.com/Canadian_Press_July9.html

“The weather device had been found three weeks previously be a New Mexico rancher, W. W. Brazell [sic], on his property about 85 miles northwest of Roswell. Brazell, whose ranch has neither telephone nor radio, knew nothing about flying discs when he found the broken remnants of the weather device. But he kept the tinfoil and wooden beams of the kite and torn synthetic rubber remains of the balloon. Maj. Jesse Marcel, 509th Bomb Group intelligence officer at Roswell said that last Saturday night Brazell was in Corona, NM, and heard for the first time of the ‘saucer’ reports.”

David Rudiak said...

UP stories:

UP telex, less than 45 minutes after story broke (from Roswell KGFL radio announcer Frank Joyce's saved collection):

http://www.roswellproof.com/United_Press_Telexes.html

"SHERIFF GEORGE WILCOX (CORRECT) OF ROSWELL WAYS THAT THE DISC WAS FOUND ABOUT THREE WEEKS AGO BY A RANCHER BY THE NAME OF W. W. BRIZELL ON THE FOSTER RANCH NEAR CORONA, ABOUT 75 MILES NORTHWEST OF ROSWELL NEAR THE CENTER OF NEW MEXICO. SHERIFF WILCOX SAYS THE RANCHER DOES NOT HAVE A TELEPHONE, AND THAT HE DID NOT REPORT FINDING THE DISC UNTIL DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY.”

http://www.roswellproof.com/UP_SFNews_July8.html

"It landed on a ranch at Corona, N.M., sometime last week. W. W. Brizell [sic] of the Poster [sic] ranch was the man who discovered it. Not having telephone facilities, Mr. Brizell stored the disk until he was able to contact the Roswell sheriff's office."

http://www.roswellproof.com/Philadelphia_Inquirer_July9.html

"Sheriff George Wilcox of Roswell said the disc was found about three weeks ago by W. W. Brizell [sic], on the Foster ranch at Corona, 75 miles northwest of Roswell. Wilcox said that Brizell does not have a telephone and so did not report finding the disc until the day before yesterday..."

http://www.roswellproof.com/UP_NevadaSJ_July9.html

"An AAF spokesman said the object was found a couple of weeks ago by W. W. Brizell [sic] on the Foster ranch at Corona, 75 miles northwest of Roswell. Brizell had no telephone, so he kept it until he could make contact with the sheriff's office at Roswell.

OK, enough, I think the point is made. Newspapers generally reported Brazel had no radio or phone, did not know of the saucers until the night of July 5 (Saturday) when he visited Corona, and the delay in reporting to the Sheriff was supposedly the result of having no phone, not to mention living 75-85 miles from Roswell.

You’ll also notice the quotes from Marcel of debris being scattered over a “square mile” and Brazel living in the middle of nowhere, the same things he said 30 years later to investigators, so hardly invented in the present day. (Similarly the main UP story I linked to stated: “Maj. Jesse A. Marcel, intelligence officer of the 509th bombardment group, reportedly told Brazel, the finder of the object, that "it has nothing to do with Army or Navy so far as I can tell." Brazel’s son Bill 30+ years later said his father told him the same thing, that the military told him it wasn’t Army or Navy. In one AP story, Sheriff Wilcox in 1947 refused to comment further when pressed about what Brazel had found, saying he was “working with those fellows at the base,” so again hardly invented by nefarious investigators in the present day.)

David Rudiak said...

(Part 3 of 3)
CDA: “If Brazel had indeed been isolated from the mass media, i.e. press and radio, he would hardly have given an interview to the RDR.”

Well as usual you seem to be missing the point. Brazel WAS isolated from the mass media, being in the “middle of nowhere” and lacking electricity, radio, and phone, also living a long commute distance from Roswell. (I’ve heard the roads were so bad then, it took around 4 hours to drive the distance). He drove to Roswell infrequently and only when he had to to conduct business. Further, when Marcel returned to Roswell the night of July 8, Brazel should have remained at the ranch after having just gone to Roswell. Yet we know for absolute FACT that Brazel WAS back in Roswell less than 24 hours later giving an interview at the Roswell Daily Record, leaving his ranch and livestock unattended. What was he doing back in Roswell so soon after just journeying there?

If you go strictly by the newspapers from 1947, this mystery is never explained. All that Brazel had to say about it in his RDR interview were the following quotes:

RDR story: ”Brazel was brought here late yesterday by W. E. Whitmore, of radio station KGFL, had his picture taken and gave an interview to the Record and Jason Kellahin, sent here from the Albuquerque bureau of the Associated Press to cover the story... [After Marcel went to the ranch with Brazel to recover whatever] ... Marcel brought it to Roswell and that was the last he heard of it until the story broke that he had found a flying disk.

AP/Kellahin version: “Sheriff Wilcox referred the discovery to intelligence officers at the Roswell Army Air field, and Major Jesse A. Marcel and a man in civilian clothes whom Brazel was unable to identify went to the ranch and brought the pieces of material to the air field. ‘I didn't hear any more about it until things started popping,’ said Brazel. ‘Lord, how that story has traveled!’”

So how does a man living in the middle of nowhere with no access to the media “hear the story break” and “things start popping?” And only 5 or 6 hours later after the story first broke on the AP wire (around 2:30), he was giving an interview in Roswell?

The ONLY way this could have been true if he was already back in Roswell. But why and how? The newspapers are mum on this point, but decades-later interviews with Whitmore’s son Walt Jr. and KGFL co-owner Judd Roberts tell us that Whitmore Sr. had somehow heard of the story. Whitmore Sr. was apparently so intrigued that he drive all the way out to the Foster Ranch the night of July 8 to bring Brazel back to Roswell for an exclusive wire-taped interview. (Obviously descriptions of old rotting balloons are incredibly exciting news material.) Whitmore Jr. remembered finding Brazel sleeping like Goldilocks in his bed and then making breakfast before leaving the Whitmore house and going out into town.

So after going through all that trouble to get Brazel and tape an exclusive interview, the interview was never played on the air as obviously planned. Instead, Whitmore Sr. was reported taking Brazel to his media rival, the Daily Record, so they and the AP could scoop him on his own story.

Naturally, our skeptics will assure us, this conundrum cannot be explained by Whitmore Jr. and Roberts also telling us KGFL received a call from the FCC in Washington threatening to pull their radio license if they aired the taped interview.

Ancient memories simply cannot be trusted, unless they come from witnesses supporting the Air Force’s Mogul balloon explanation, primarly Charles Moore, whose 40-50 year ancient memories of a nonexistent Mogul balloon flight are absolutely infallible.

cda said...

DR's 3-part tirade is redundant. It is my fault for not comprehending what Don had written (and which he later made clear).

I had interpreted what Don said as meaning that Brazel had been isolated (i.e. shielded) from the mass media AFTER reporting his discovery. Meaning he had been held incommunicado at the RAAF base, which is one of DR's own favorite arguments for threats being made against witnesses. This was indeed something told to investigators 30 - 35 years afterwards and was not in the contemporary press.

Clearly I misunderstood what Don wrote.

Don said...

CDA, mea culpa for not realizing it could be misunderstood because the matter of Brazel being detained or held incommunicado is in dispute in these discussions, which is an important issue, whereas the significance or importance of mine is not, at least at this point.

A reasonable guess as to why Marcel in Ft Worth noted Brazel's isolation would be because the three weeks ago story was 'Ft Worth' approved, lets say. That would be reason for reporters to ask Marcel why Brazel waited to report it. No phone. Ranch chores (nature waits for no man, as those of us who keep vegetable gardens know).

But that doesn't explain why it appears in the press release, which refers to "some time last week", not three weeks ago. and since the release is supposed to be de novo, there would not be any questions to respond to. Brazel didn't have a phone, but Corona did, and we are told he went in to Corona at least once during that time.

So, for me, there is something not 'right' about the story as reported.



Regards,

Don

Don said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Rudiak said...

cda wrote: I had interpreted what Don said as meaning that Brazel had been isolated (i.e. shielded) from the mass media AFTER reporting his discovery. Meaning he had been held incommunicado at the RAAF base, which is one of DR's own favorite arguments for threats being made against witnesses. This was indeed something told to investigators 30 - 35 years afterwards and was not in the contemporary press.

CDA is ducking the issues I raised:
1) Brazel in his interview the evening of July 8 stated after Marcel left the ranch, he heard nothing further until the “story broke”. But how could he hear the story break at the ranch if he had no radio and no phone?
2) Even if somehow he did hear the story break out there, why would he bother to return to Roswell to supposedly set the record straight, leaving his ranch and livestock unattended? He had just been to Roswell and went there infrequently because of the difficulty and expense. Yet he was clearly back in Roswell giving that interview only 5 or 6 hours after the story broke. How and why?

The newspapers never deal with it, yet we know it had to have happened. He certainly was back in Roswell doing that interview only a day after being left at the ranch by Marcel. This makes absolutely no sense unless you consider that “unreliable” testimony 30-40+ years later of people like Judd Roberts and Walt Whitmore Jr. that Whitmore Sr. (owner of KGFL radio in Roswell) had heard the story and driven out to the ranch the evening/night of July 7/8 to retrieve Brazel for an exclusive recorded interview, and then brought him back to the Whitmore house. Roberts’ affidavit:

http://www.roswellproof.com/roberts.html

Well, that puts him back in Roswell July 8 where he could possibly hear the story break, but begs even more questions the skeptics keep dodging:

1) What was so damn intriguing about Brazel's original story to the Sheriff and others that Whitmore Sr. would go through all that effort to drive 8 hours in desert heat across bad roads to retrieve Brazel? Does anyone think Brazel's later story that all he found was some sticks, aluminum foil, rubber strips, and tape all that newsworthy? Common sense tells us Brazel must have said something far more intriguing than that to lure Whitmore out there, not to mention the two top intelligence people at Roswell acting under the base commander’s orders.

2) Then after going through all that trouble, Whitmore never aired his exclusive. Why not? That makes no sense either, unless the stories of Whitmore Jr. and Roberts decades later were true, namely the radio station was threatened by a call from Washington with IMMEDIATELY loss of license if they aired the interview.

3) Finally, it was reported Whitmore Sr. took Brazel to a media rival so they can scoop him on his own big story. Why would Whitmore do that?

I might note here that Brazel didn’t do that interview until 2 to 3 hours AFTER Gen. Ramey in Fort Worth had already made it official that all Brazel found was a singular weather balloon and radar target. Then, and only then, when it was all over the news that it was weather balloon, did Brazel tell a balloon story (then recanted it). Talk about the potential for “witness contamination.” Why would he even bother at that point to supposedly set the record straight? Brazel was not known to be much of a talker.

None of these actions by these people make any sense on their own except in a bigger context of someone else running the show. As for obvious military “witness contamination”, it WAS reported by AP back in 1947 that Sheriff Wilcox refused to answer more questions about what Brazel supposedly found explaining he was “working with those fellows at the base.” It was also clear Wilcox didn’t exactly know which story to tell to reporters who called him because the information was contradictory. E.g., what did Brazel tell Wilcox he thought he found? Brazel (interview): “flying disc"; Wilcox (to UP): "weather meter".

Nitram Ang said...

David Rudiak - your comments are getting a bit off topic but I always enjoy reading them.

CDA & Lance - you keep ducking the questions as David has pointed out

So I will ask you both:

1. How many times have you been to Roswell?
2. How many first/second hand witnesses have you spoken to e.g. Frankie Rowe?

Terry the Censor said...

> None of these actions by these people make any sense on their own except in a bigger context of someone else running the show.

With respect, Dr. Rudiak, when the answer to a supposed mystery is, "It's a conspiracy," that is not compelling.

Your speculations about these incoherent facts are worth considering, but do they lead to new evidence, new avenues of investigation?

(I am not disputing the evidence presented, just questioning the reasoning.)

Lance said...

I have never been to Roswell.

I have never interviewed any supposed witnesses on the Roswell case.

Okay?

Lance

Don said...

David,

If, as the Roswell Report has it, "the field" sent Marcel, Cavitt, and Rickett to the ranch, and if what they found there was not a radar target and weather balloon, but something of say...unexpected interest, do you think they would have returned to the base without Brazel in tow?

Best Regards,

Don

Lance said...

That is an excellent question, Don.

Lance

Nitram Ang said...

Lance - firstly thank you for answering the questions.

Since you admit to not being an expert in relation to the Roswell Incident, why are you making it seem that the conclusion is so clear cut when you clearly don't have the expertise to offer such an opinion?

Some of the "researchers" in the "dream team" have been to Roswell dozens of times and interviewed countless witnesses.

Some of these people have PHD's and therefore don't you think that their research and opinions should be respected?

Lance - for what it's worth I have only been once to Roswell and have only spoken to a few people involved so I don't hold myself out to be an expert - and personally I think the event was a NON-extraterrestrial (however I have no explanation for what it was - even my kids know what foil looks like) but I bow, to a certain extent, to people who know more than me on the topic... I treat them with respect.

You and a few others simply argue for the sake that it couldn't happen therefore it didn't happen.

Wouldn't it be great if you and I were wrong Lance, about what happened in July of 1947?

Lance said...

Nitram,

By saying "You and a few others simply argue for the sake that it couldn't happen therefore it didn't happen."

you ham-handedly reveal your true nature.

And then by saying:

"Wouldn't it be great if you and I were wrong Lance, about what happened in July of 1947?"

You put the religious cherry on top.

Wishing does not make something true. I don't care about Saucer Jesus.

I try to argue the specific facts without spinning off into wild supposition. Doing this, as far as I can tell, does not require a visit to Roswell nor does it require the coaxing out of 60 year old memories from some supposed witness.

Your argument from authority (these are phd's!) is a classic logical fallacy.

I am happy to argue specific points with you. I am happy to do so politely. But unless Kevin asked me to stop posting here at his site, I am not gonna let the nonsense go without comment.

I may not be an expert but I feel confident that I could win any Roswell debate in front of regular folks.


Lance

Larry said...

Don asked: “…If Marcel, Cavitt, and Rickett … found there something of say...unexpected interest, do you think they would have returned to the base without Brazel in tow?”

I don’t think they would have had any legal basis on which to bring Brazel back, without his consent. I think none of those 3 individuals had any law enforcement officer powers, and the military can’t start shoving civilians around unless there has been an official finding that the matter is under military/national security purview. There was no indication of a law being broken in any case, or Sheriff Wilcox would have had reason to take action, and he didn’t.

At the time Marcel, Cavitt, and Rickett were sent out, I suggest a military/national security finding had not yet been made, and none of those 3 officers were authorized to make such a finding in the field (I suspect it requires a flag ranked officer, or perhaps a base commander). Indeed, the entire purpose for sending them out was to bring back information that would either support or refute such a determination. This was the rationale Jesse Marcel Sr. used for waking his son and wife to show them the strange material he had obtained; before he returned to base, he had no official instruction that the matter was classified, but he strongly suspected that after he reported in, it soon would be. In the brief period between leaving the Brazel ranch and the morning staff meeting, the matter was technically unclassified and Marcel was technically not in violation of any security regulation.

AFTER a matter officially becomes a military/national security matter, it is a different story. In that case, the military can exclude, detain, interrogate, and otherwise interfere with the free movement of civilians (as appears to have happened later in the week, when Brazel was made a “guest” of the Army Air Force). In cases where a civilian has been found to have been “inadvertently exposed to classified information” (as happened occasionally when the CIA was developing the U-2 aircraft at Groom Lake) the civilian can be “debriefed” and ordered to keep the matter secret. Of course, in those cases, the civilian will be informed of the substantial criminal penalties applying to someone failing to comply with the secrecy order. To an unsuspecting civilian who just happened on to the scene where classified matters were exposed, this might seem like the government was making heavy handed threats against the individual, but it is all legal.

In cases where the classified matter is “special” (i.e., sensitive, compartmented information) more extreme measures are authorized and used. This includes lying, deception, and implied threats of physical harm (as occurred for example in the SR-71 development).

Don said...

Larry, I agree with you, and in fact have written a bit about the delimitation agreements between the FBI and Army (and I suppose, the Navy, too). What you have written is accurate, afaik.

I've been working on a case concurrent with Roswell. In it, both the Hamilton Field A2 and the CIC behaviors transgressed the limits, going so far as the CIC Special Agent introducing himself to the civilian subject as a "government agent" (this from the FBI agent's report), and probably really as an 'FBI agent'. There are other incidents of CIC behavior, both ufo related and other matters, even more egregious. CIC Special Agents appear to have had more leeway in decision-making in the field than was common, too.

Otoh, the questionable behavior in itself acknowledged that it was out of bounds because the subject was a civilian with no known relationship to the Army. That was why deception was necessary. A year later the civilian was informed of the Espionage Act by Col. McCoy (I think this would be the "oath of secrecy").

Like Cavitt and Rickett could have forced Brazel, the CIC had the opportunity to seize the subject's property and prevent its distribution, but they did not. It took several months for them to accomplish it without appearing, at least, as far as standards of admissible evidence, to have violated the civilian's rights.

In Roswell, the press release contains the justification for the Army's involvement: it was requested by a civilian authority -- the Sheriff of Chaves County. It also mentions the "co-operation" between the Army and the Sheriffs office (I'll not address the matter of fact that the site was in Lincoln, not Chaves, county).

But if there were something identifiable as a space ship and space aliens, I don't think the issue of legality or delimitation would arise.

Setting aside the spectacular then, what was on the Brazel site was either nothing much or something that, at least at the time, was...what? 'Unidentifiable' isn't quite right. Inexplicable?

Either that, or the press release story is simply false and something else had happened.

Regards,

Don

cda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cda said...

In answer to Nitram Ang:

1. I have never been to Roswell.
2. I have never interviewed any witnesses.
3. I do not have a PhD.

Therefore, by your line of reasoning I am not a fit person to debate Roswell. Kevin did, or has, all 3 of the above. So presumably, also by your reasoning, he is far more likely to be right about what happened there than I am. So also is Dr Rudiak. Ho hum.



DR:

Whitmore this or Whitmore that?

Can you please tell us, with some definiteness, exactly which Whitmore did what and when they did it.

Moore-Berlitz tell us that Whitmore Sr could not reach the site as armed guards stopped him from reaching it. They also tell us that Whitmore Jr. did visit the site, but only after the military had gone.

Karl Pflock also tells us that Whitmore Jr (while still a student) visited the site, after Brazel had given him directions. Moreover he (Whitmore Jr) thinks he got there BEFORE the military did, and managed to collect some debris! In which case he got his hands on it before the military did. If you accept what he says, of course.

Neither Whitmore, as far as I can tell, had anything to do with bringing Brazel back to town.

In view of all this, I am not persuaded that either Whitmore ever visited the site at all - at least not near the time of the said event.

I have not reread what Randle, Schmitt, Carey etc have to say on this as I simply cannot go through all that testimony time & again. It is tiresome, contradictory and almost worthless.

I always understood that Brazel accompanied Marcel/Cavitt back to town, but maybe he followed a bit later. Again, whose word do you trust?

As to the meaning of the phrase "when the story broke", I simply do not know. Presumably this means the moment the press release went out, but as there were several 'stories' who can be sure? Maybe it is a fault of the RDR press reporter.

Larry said...

Don:

It seems to me that when Marcel, Cavitt, and Rickett went out to the ranch, they could only have had two interests in Brazel. The first would be to get as complete a witness statement as possible--what he saw and heard, when, what he did and in what order, etc. The second interest--which would only apply if they decided he had seen something with military/national security implications--would be to tell him to not talk about it. Since they did not know at that time what Brazel had discovered, they couldn't come prepared with a cover story to foist on him. I don't see that either of those objectives would require taking Brazel back to Roswell. They spent half a day with him; that's plenty of time to go over his story multiple times and advise him to shut up about it. For all we know, that's exactly what they did.

Later in the week, after Ramey's balloon cover story had come out, the dynamic changed. At that point, it was necessary to get Brazel to do the exact opposite of shut up--they had to convince him to vocally support the official story. At that point, there was a definite need to have him in town, in order to coach him and parade him around to the media.

Don said...

Larry, I think that would be SOP. As a narrative, it depends on the underlying story that, in fact, Brazel went to the Chaves County Sheriff and told him something that led to the Sheriff calling in the Army that led to the Commanding Officer ordering his Intelligence Officer and two CIC Special Agents to drive a hundred miles and spend the night in the field after having driven back country and native surface roads in a Buick sedan and a jeep. And apparently without supplies. During the summer monsoons. On a matter of no evident significance (national defense) or interest to the air force having been presented to them.

It could have waited til morning, at least.

The basic Roswell storyline as reported in the press in 1947 is either false or, if true, significantly inaccurate.

Regards,

Don

cda said...

Further contradictory 'evidence':

Whitmore jr states (see Pflock's 2nd book p. 154) that he still has (in 1992) the stuff he collected from the ranch!

But we know Brazel jr was specifically told to hand over the small bits of debris he had to the military. (The date for this varies between 'a few weeks after the event' to sometime in 1949. Take your pick). Others have had similar threats made against them by USAF guys. No civilians were ever allowed to keep this supersecret debris, were they?

Yet Whitmore jr had kept his in a safe for 45 years, and maybe it is still available. WHERE IS THIS DEBRIS, and why has it not been produced for the world to see?

The probable answer is that it is merely balloon or radar target junk, and nothing else. Yet, according to the ETHers, all this is supposed to be stuff of unearthly origin!

What a shambles this testimony is. Yet to some it is the gospel truth. Almost.

Don said...

Just to clarify my point, CDA. I am not referring to either the ETH, or later witnesses, or to the work of investigators, but to the baseline Roswell story as reported in 1947 as being false or significantly inaccurate. They cannot be a measure of truth to which later witnesses have to conform.

But I do think all stories involving driving about, and for distances, such as the Whitmore story(ies) should be reviewed very carefully before accepting them as accurately set in the summer of 1947.


Regards,

Don

cda said...

Don:

My point is that Whitmore Jr told Karl Pflock during two interviews that he recovered this stuff (whatever it was) and stored it in a safe at home, and that as of 1993 he still had it.

A credible story?

So where is this earthly, or unearthly, material? Is it still available?

Whitmore evidently was not in any hurry to show it to the world!

Yet this is the very material that ought to finally prove either that the stuff is mundane (in which case the Roswell ET case collapses at once), or it is possible ET material (in which case Tony Bragalia, for one, ought to be highly interested). Perhaps even now, the Battelle Institute should examine it. Some chance, eh?

My own biew is that Whitmore may possibly have visited the site, but it was long after the UFO event and all he saw and retrieved was uninteresting junk.

Has anyone got other ideas?

We do not need to review Whitmore's story carefully. We need to see this alleged debris.

As it stands, it is a bit like that debris that Marcel jr told us was buried under a concrete patio at his home.

Don said...

In July 1947, before the 9th, how would anyone in Roswell know Brazel from Adam?

A big issue for me in the Roswell stories is the utter lack of sense of time and place. Reality collapses into a small world-stage without regard for the actually existing world.

In the summer of 1947 in the US there was a national coal strike, that shuttered the steel industry, that shuttered automobile production. There was a gasoline shortage that affected even the military, and a rubber shortage. And that is why the Proctors' story is well situated in the summer of 47, and Whitmore's is not.

Regards,

Don

David Rudiak said...

Don wrote:
"In July 1947, before the 9th, how would anyone in Roswell know Brazel from Adam?"

Don, the testimony about Brazel being surrounded by military officers in Roswell or being led away from the Roswell Daily Record by officers, also refusing to acknowledge the presence of friends (suggesting he was under duress), comes from five interviewed neighboring ranchers who knew him, who happened to be in town at the same time. One of these was Floyd Proctor. (saw him being led away from the RDR and refusing to look at him)

Two news people at the RDR also reported Brazel being brought there and taken away by military, editor Paul McEvoy and AP reporter Jason Kellahin, who previously lived in Roswell and said he knew Brazel. Even if not so, Brazel was obviously the man of the hour. The news people were quickly going to know who he was once he walked in the door to be interviewed and introduced himself. Kellahin had been sent there specifically to interview him.

Base Provost Marshal Edwin Easley was also obviously going to know who Brazel was if he was in charge of detaining him at the base under armed guard, as he admitted to Kevin.

The Sheriff was likewise going to know him from Brazel's previous trip there to report the incident. The deputies who were there would also know.

Another person to speak to Brazel on his initial trip was KGFL's news announcer Frank Joyce. Probably right after Brazel was at the RDR, Joyce said Brazel came to KGFL and retracted his initial story. According to Joyce, Brazel told him he had been forced to change the story. The way Joyce put it was that they had gone hard on him and advised Joyce to be careful as they would go hard on him as well. I asked Joyce if the military was there, but Joyce said he remembered Brazel being alone at the time.


The Brazel family were not exactly complete unknowns in New Mexico. I think Mack Brazel's uncle(?) Wayne Brazel was well-known for killing Pat Garrett in 1908, who was himself well-known for hunting down and shooting Billy the Kid in the back. It was indeed the Wild, Wild West back then.

David Rudiak said...

Don,

On the matter of who was on the initial trip out to the Foster Ranch with Brazel, that would have been Marcel and CIC head Sheridan Cavitt. This was not only Marcel's memory, but also indicated in Brazel's interview where he indicated Marcel was accompanied by an unidentified man in plain clothes or street clothes. Brazel did not mention two such men.

The story of CIC agent Rickett going out initially was created by Cavitt when finally interviewed by AFOSI in 1994. Cavitt, in fact, denied being with Marcel or ever meeting Brazel. (Begging the obvious question never asked of Cavitt, how did he ever find that tiny balloon crash in the middle of nowhere no bigger than his living room he claimed was responsible, if he never met Brazel?)

When AFOSI typed up Cavitt's affidavit to sign, they changed the story to Cavitt also being with Marcel in addition to Rickett.

Rickett's memory was Cavitt taking him out to probably the debris field when a large-scale recovery was already underway, having to pass through several armed checkpoints, with the recovery area also being surrounded by armed guards. Soldiers were walking around picking up debris. He handled one piece of very thin metal, which he was unable to bend.

Whether Cavitt deliberately lied about all this or was simply confused 47 years later I can't say with certainty. He was clearly contradicted by the other witnesses and news stories going back to 1947.

It was noteworthy that he stuck to a tiny balloon crash story, consistent with the final official story in 1947, even after he was deliberately prompted that the theory had been changed to the giant Mogul balloon. He also denied that they found any sort of material with hieroglyphics, including so-called "flower tape", claiming this was all made up by UFO authors trying to sell books.

So much for the Air Force's star witness supporting the Mogul balloon story.

David Rudiak said...

Larry wrote:

"Later in the week, after Ramey's balloon cover story had come out, the dynamic changed. At that point, it was necessary to get Brazel to do the exact opposite of shut up--they had to convince him to vocally support the official story. At that point, there was a definite need to have him in town, in order to coach him and parade him around to the media."

Exactly Larry. Brazel made only infrequent trips to Roswell to carry out essential business. Brazel had just led Marcel/Cavitt back to the ranch after going to Roswell to report the incident and carry out other chores. There was no good reason to immediately return to Roswell on his own and leave his livestock unattended again.

Skeptics who cite "witness contamination" as a reason to not trust any present-day testimony, fail to apply the same test to people like Brazel or Sheriff Wilcox. Wilcox admitted back then to working with the military. Brazel wasn't interviewed for hours after Ramey had already put out the weather balloon story. Brazel was not noted for being much of a talker. What was the purpose of hours later going to the newspaper to supposedly set the story straight, that it was a balloon, when the story had already been set straight? (Then, after describing balloon debris, including what sounded like a radar target, he immediately retracted the story, saying it didn't resemble in ANY WAY previous weather balloons he had found on the property.)

Coupled with the testimony of multiple people that he was in the hands of the military at the time, this is a classic "contaminated witness".

Also if you compare Brazel's testimony with what Ramey displayed in Fort Worth as all that was supposedly recovered, the two do NOT match up. Brazel spoke only of finding small pieces, such as "rubber strips". But there are no "rubber strips" in the photos taken in Fort Worth, only a slightly used, seemingly mostly intact weather balloon. The radar target on display was somewhat broken and torn up, but mostly still in big pieces. Nobody has ever been able to find Brazel's "flower tape" in the photos. The white paper backing on the radar target is lily white with no staining, no evidence of weathering after supposedly at least three weeks exposure. And the quantity on display (one radar target, one balloon, weight less than 1.5 pounds) was considerably less than Brazel's 5 pounds, which was already less than 10% of an intact Mogul balloon.

The radar target on display also has no evidence of any string attached, which should necessarily have been there if it had ever flown. This was probably a new radar target taken out of a packing box and slightly busted and torn by hand to make it appear that it had crashed.

Finally, I think it highly noteworthy that Brazel also mentioned finding absolutely no balloon rigging of any kind (no string or wire, if that is how it was suspended, he was quoted). Again, that is not what would be expected at a real balloon crash site. In the case of a Mogul balloon, there should have been hundreds of yards of such rigging strewn about and tangled in rocks and brush.

Ramey's singular weather balloon, Brazel's described material, and an early Mogul balloon really have nothing in common except using the same sort of equipment. But the quantities and condition simply do not match up.

It wouldn't take much coaching to get someone to describe balloon material. You could simply show them such material, tell them to make mental notes, because they were going to have to describe it later, to support the official story just put out. Invoking the much-abused Occam's razor, that most economically explains why the debris descriptions by Brazel in Roswell and Ramey's balloon do not match up well.

As for Marcel in 1947 describing a radar target in Fort Worth as what he supposedly found, he had one right in front of him at the time and, of course, would have been acting under orders.

Don said...

David, I'll get to the quick of it rather than answer point by point.

The stories, such as Marcel (and whoever else went there from the RAAF to the ranch) or Whitmore Sr and Judd Roberts driving there...the stories only make sense if the ranch and the rancher really were local to Roswell, and not off in Lincoln County.

Best Regards,

Don

Don said...

"Don, the testimony about Brazel being surrounded by military officers in Roswell or being led away from the Roswell Daily Record by officers, also refusing to acknowledge the presence of friends (suggesting he was under duress), comes from five interviewed neighboring ranchers who knew him, who happened to be in town at the same time."

I don't think that many ranchers from Lincoln would just happen to be in Roswell at the same time when that time is evening on a week day in mid-summer 80-100 miles from their chores without a reason. Maybe there was a wool auction and they were participating and were staying in Roswell overnight. Worth checking out. There have been wool auctdions in Roswell in July, but I don't know about 1947.



Best Regards,

Don

KRandle said...

All =

This has slipped badly off the rails. My original post was about there still being some people who claimed first-hand knowledge of part of this story. So many of the first-hand witnesses have died in the last few years. We are now reduced to very few who were children at the time, and who had limited access to the information.

This does not mean that I reject the first-hand role claimed by others. Bill Brazel clearly had first-hand knowledge, as did the Marcels, as did Edwin Easley, as did so many others. In the world today we are left with only the record made in the form of audio and video tapes. We are fortunate to have quite a few of those, including all the video tapes made by the Fund for UFO Research many of them illegally posted to YouTube.

I no longer have the energy to argue facts when I run into speculation... why would Brazel go to Roswell in Chavez County when the ranch was in Lincoln County might be answerd simply by the fact that Roswell was one time in Lincoln County until politicians divided it...

Yes, Karl Pflock interviewed Walt Whitmore, Jr., but after I did. Whitmore claimed that the debris he picked up was in his safe deposit box until he planned a trip to Europe. Then he replaced some of the items in that box with others, taking out this alleged debris and putting it into his "junk room." No one ever saw it but him and no one ever found it after his death.

Rickett didn't go out on that first trip. It was Brazel, Marcel and Cavitt, though I have Cavitt on tape denying it was him. But, as the Air Force proved it was. Rickett went out later.

I could go one, but we'll just have to go around again and again as people, who wish to believe eliminate the testimony they don't like to avoid difficult questions and those who don't want to believe make up things that are unsupported by any testimony (yes, the Mogul Flight No. 4 is invented because it never flew).

There is just so much that is wrong that is appended to this posting, I don't think I could ever straighten it out and certainly can't do it to the satisfaction of everyone. Just thought I'd mention that you all have dragged us out into the weeds where we can accomplish nothing.

Don said...

Kevin Carrizozo has been the county seat of Lincoln County since 1909. Prior to that it was in Lincoln.

Chavez County was created in 1889.

That was all back in Territorial Days.

I have no idea why you think that this history explains why Brazel in 1947 would go to the Chavez Sheriff rather than his own Sheriffs about 30 or so miles from him.


Regards,

Don

KRandle said...

Don -

And the Brazel family goes back to territorial days. Wayne Brazel killed Pat Garrett (yes, that Pat Garrett) in 1908...

I'm just saying that the lines on the ground don't always mean all that much... but please note, we know that Brazel went to Roswell, we know he talked to Chavez County sheriff, men from Roswell followed him out to the ranch to look at the debris...

Nitram Ang said...

Apologies for taking us further off course but I just can't resist pointing this out...

Lance stated:

"I have never been to Roswell."

"I have never interviewed any supposed witnesses on the Roswell case."

Without analyzing the point of the questioning Lance continued:

"I try to argue the specific facts ... Doing this, as far as I can tell, does not require a visit to Roswell nor does it require the coaxing out of 60 year old memories from some supposed witness."

Finally, the following classic

"I may not be an expert but I feel confident that I could win any Roswell debate in front of regular folks."

Firstly as I have continuously advised Lance, this is NOT a debate - it is a discussion/investigation.

Secondly... following your logic:

1. I have never played golf
2. I have never played in a major golf tournament
3. I feel confident I could beat Tiger Woods in the US Open.

Of course I might win Lance - but it is unlikely...

The other point is that if Tiger was giving me a golfing lesson I would be listening carefully, occasionally asking what, hopefully, would be a sensible question or two, rather than telling him where he has gone wrong with his last shot on the green.

Anthony Mugan said...

I agree with Kevin - the original post is simple statement of fact and it is of marginal benefit at best to debate claims that can not be established or falsified ( or at least supported with a high level of probability).
In the case of Roswell what is certain is:
a) Some debris was recovered that was not immediately recognisable by Brazel, Wilcox and officers of the 509th.
b) The 509th felt the situation required a military response.
c) Officers ordered to collect debris were a Major and Captain with Intelligence and Counter Intelligence responsibilities. This would have implications for the operational readiness of the 509th and was an unusual task for officers of that rank and role to undertake.
d) The initial press release claimed capture of a flying disk. The debris itself was flown to 8th AF headquarters (and probably further on from there)
e) the weather balloon cover story later released by Ramey was effectively acknowledged as such by the 1994 and 1995 USAF and GAO reports
f) The 1994 and 1995 reports effectively excluded other hypotheses for the debris such as aircraft or rocket debris, Fugo balloons etc.
g) The NYU flight 4 hypothesis put forward in 1994 as the new 'official' version of events can be falsified with ridiculous ease, but remains strongly held by some.
h) There is no record of what happened to the debris, any formal identification or communication with the NYU project, 8th AF, the 509th etc. The communication logs of the 509th for the relevant period were destroyed.

Most of the rest of it is based on individual testimony - some of it more consistent with other sources, logic etc than others.

conclusion - unidentified debris. Case worthy of ongoing investigation as possibly exotic material given the credibility of the principal witness (Marcel) and some others, combined with the nature of the response to the incident by the 509th.

cda said...

Kevin and DR:

"Yes, Karl Pflock interviewed Walt Whitmore, Jr., but after I did. Whitmore claimed that the debris he picked up was in his safe deposit box until he planned a trip to Europe. Then he replaced some of the items in that box with others, taking out this alleged debris and putting it into his "junk room." No one ever saw it but him and no one ever found it after his death."

Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Had this stuff been from an ET craft are we really to suppose Whitmore would have stashed it away for decades and told nobody? Of course not.

Here is, or was, some genuine unidentified, possibly extraterrestrial, debris in the hands of a civilian, but this guy never told the world about it! Moreover, the military never got their hands on it and confiscated it (as they are alleged to have done with other people's Roswell debris).

It is, or was, there for the scientific world to examine. And now it has disappeared. Absolutely incredible, if true.

If true indeed. So before anyone brings up yet again the matter of how the USAF confiscated all the physical evidence and locked it away, let them explain how the Whitmore debris was available and untouched for 45 years then got lost. Come on Tony Bragalia, where are you?

And no, Nitram, I do NOT need a PhD, nor do I need to interview anyone, to make this observation.

Don said...

"I'm just saying that the lines on the ground don't always mean all that much... but please note, we know that Brazel went to Roswell, we know he talked to Chavez County sheriff, men from Roswell followed him out to the ranch to look at the debris..."

Kevin, please note, I have never written Brazel didn't go to the Chavez Sheriffs. I am asking why he didn't go to his own Sheriff Office. There has to be a reason. Or, did he? If he did, did the sheriffs 'disrespect' him? Did Brazel and the Sheriff families have a dispute, maybe going back to Territorial days?

There are two things about an interaction between Brazel and the Lincoln Sheriffs. (1) Potential witnesses (or their younger family members) to some part of the story now unknown to us. (2) The fact that some of those sheriffs were grizzled veterans, not new boys like Wilcox. Their history with the air force goes back to at least WWII. They knew who to call if something of interest to the air force turned up.

You know, after a generation or two of attempting to pay county taxes, fees, and assessments, vote, notarize documents, and sign papers at the wrong county's offices, I think folks in the Carrizozo and Corona neighborhood would have figured out where their county seat was. Oh, and same for the folks in Chavez County, too.

Have you considered that the county was divided along geographical and economic activity lines? That Roswell and Corona/Carrizozo have nothing much in common in those? You're an army officer, what do you see on the maps in these matters?

Also (and to David, as well). When I write that, according to the AFOSI Report "the field" sent Marcel, Cavitt, and Rickett, I don't need to be 'corrected' by being told that it is in the AFOSI Report.

I had written

"David,

If, as the Roswell Report has it, "the field" sent Marcel, Cavitt, and Rickett to the ranch..."

Also, that someone said this, and someone said that, and one was a liar...is not strong evidence against the Report.

Regards,

Don

KRandle said...

Don -

This is a ridiculous discussion. Brazel went to Roswell. That is fact. He talked to the Chavez County sheriff. That is fact. Bill Brazel said that they thought of Roswell as the hub and did their business in Roswell. Now you want to speculate as to why he went into Roswell. I'm not sure that it matters.

CDA -

Whitmore, Jr.'s story evolved over time, something that Karl failed to mention. I don't have a problem with him keeping quiet about the debris as he hid it in his safe deposit box... I do have one when he removed it and then tossed it into his junk room. The nature of it also evolved until he was saying it was parts of a weather balloon... but as I say, he never showed it to anyone and nothing was found after he died.

Don said...

Ok, Kevin.

One last bit of info for you:

The CIC was never segregated. The CIC had "Negro" agents.



cda said...

Kevin:

In your original posting you mentioned Jesse Marcel jr. Whilst I do not accept that he was a first-hand witness. I do accept that he saw and handled some of the debris at the time of the event.

The problem here (and it won't go away) is that he had been interviewed, possibly several times, by Moore & Friedman a decade before you got to him. Therefore he was already conditioned towards ETH. Anyone doubting this should read his letter to a colleague of Moore's named Lee Graham in 1981, where Marcel talks about structural fatigue and the obvious stresses endured by the craft.

Marcel jr was only 11 years old in 1947 and I do wonder, if he really thought the debris was so extraordinary, and maybe extraterrestrial, why he never told anyone for 32 years. He, as a boy, was certainly never bound by any oath of secrecy.

Have you any evidence that Marcel jr told his friends about it in the intervening years? Have you anything to indicate that he ever gave it a thought during this time?

I have no doubt Moore/Friedman coached him and steered him towards ETH, so that his mind was made up by the time you got to him.

Any ideas on this?

KRandle said...

Don -

I never said that the CIC was segregated... In 1947, until Truman issued his order on the subject, the African-American soldiers served in their own units, often commanded by white officers. In Roswell, the black soldiers were in Squadron S.

CDA -

Answered the question about Marcel, Jr. telling friends about the debris sometime ago, but you dismissed it because we had gathered the information in the 1990s and not in 1947. Interviewed one or two of them.

If the debris that Jesse handled was from an alien craft, that makes him a first-hand witness to that particular aspect of the case. When he talked about what his father saw and did, that enters the realm of second hand.

And I'm not sure that you can really say that Moore and Friedman implanted the idea of an alien craft in his mind. Certainly that was the direction they took, but that idea might have already been there, and from my discussions with him, that was what his father suggested to him. But then you'll be quick to point out that I didn't talk to him until after the others so I can't be sure. And around we go.

David Rudiak said...

Don wrote:
When I write that, according to the AFOSI Report "the field" sent Marcel, Cavitt, and Rickett, I don't need to be 'corrected' by being told that it is in the AFOSI Report.

The point is, Don, Rickett being a part of the initial investigation party sent to check out the ranch with Brazel was purely a modern-day fabrication of Cavitt (ex-CIC) and AFOSI. Cavitt said he was only with Rickett and excluded Marcel and Brazel.

But back in 1947, Marcel was the clearly named primary investigator and according to Brazel, only one other man in "plain clothes" accompanied him.

Marcel later said that was Cavitt, not Rickett. Rickett said he went out with Cavitt on another trip when a cordon was up and the area was being swept for debris. Whether you believe him or not, what he was describing clearly had nothing to do with the initial trip to the ranch.

So descriptions of investigation party:
Brazel: Brazel + Marcel + "plain clothes" guy
Marcel: Brazel + Marcel + Cavitt
Cavitt: No Brazel, No Marcel, Cavitt + Rickett
Cavitt affidavit (written by AFOSI): No Brazel, Marcel + Cavitt + Rickett
Rickett: Not part of initial party

The Brazel, Marcel, Rickett stories are internally consistent and in line with what was reported in 1947; the Cavitt/AFOSI versions are not.

Also, that someone said this, and someone said that, and one was a liar...is not strong evidence against the Report.

The testimonies of Marcel and Rickett are both consistent and agree with the facts reported in 1947, whereas Cavitt's testimony and AFOSI's variation of it are not, so YES, it is strong evidence against the Report. (Just another example of the massaging of data by those who wrote it.)

But back to your initial point, regardless of the makeup of the initial military investigative party, why didn't they take Brazel back with them if they found something highly unusual with national security implications, I agree with Larry: no legal authority, even assuming they did want him to return. Brazel was a civilian. What were they going to do, point a gun at his head?

Of course they could request that he return, and Brazel might respond that he had already been away from the ranch for a day or two and had sheep that needed tending. Again, at that point, they had zero authority to overrule him and take him against his will.

Of course, if Rickett had been there, Brazel would have been outnumbered three to one, including two CIC guys who may not have been so observant of the law. But he wasn't by the preponderance of evidence. I still doubt that at that point, they would have dared to seize him without having much higher authority give the order. We weren't exactly at war at the time.

Nitram Ang said...

Kevin wrote:

"Yes, Karl Pflock interviewed Walt Whitmore, Jr., but after I did. Whitmore claimed that the debris he picked up was in his safe deposit box until he planned a trip to Europe. Then he replaced some of the items in that box with others, taking out this alleged debris and putting it into his "junk room." No one ever saw it but him and no one ever found it after his death."

CDA got excited of course and added

"Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

It is, or was, there for the scientific world to examine. And now it has disappeared. Absolutely incredible, if true.

If true indeed. So before anyone brings up yet again the matter of how the USAF confiscated all the physical evidence and locked it away, let them explain how the Whitmore debris was available and untouched for 45 years then got lost..."

Following Lance's example and without thinking CDA concluded

"And no, Nitram, I do NOT need a PhD, nor do I need to interview anyone, to make this observation."

Dealing with your last comment first - I never said you needed a PHD to make a comment or observation in relation to Roswell. It would help you understand things a bit if you keep an open mind, read some of the interesting books from some of the researchers who have been to Roswell and have spoken first hand to some of the people involved.
If you have already seen the made for TV movie - maybe you need to watch it a few more times...

Now returning to Whitmore the question that CDA probably should have asked to Kevin & David is:

Would it be fair to say that Whitmore's story regarding handling of the debris and what he did with it for so many years, is a "little less believable" than evidence provided by other first hand witnesses to the debris say, Marcel junior?

Now CDA - you sit back, stay calm, and wait patiently to hear what the experts have to say...

cda said...

Nitram:

The very fact that Whitmore jr collected & handled the debris and stored it away for 45 years makes him just as much a first-hand witness, and more so, that Marcel jr, who merely saw the junk for a few minutes/hours one night then never saw it again.

On what grounds do you say Marcel was a more reliable witness than Whitmore? It was Marcel who wrote about the great stresses and structural fatigue suffered by the presumed craft - and this based on the short-lived viewing of sticks and tinfoil by an 11-year old, 30+ years earlier!

I have read a great many of the books, thank you, so am quite familiar with what the'experts' say.

But there is always the Dream Team's great revelations to come, perhaps.

David Rudiak said...

Terry (the Censor, somewhat like Ivan the Terrible or Alexander the Great), asked me a ways back why I thought there was a coverup. I wrote a long response because it is actually a complicated question, but here's the short version:

1. None of the mentioned principals in 1947 was behaving like all Brazel found was 5 pounds of rubber strips, wooden sticks, foil and tape. This starts with Brazel feeling the need to report to the Sheriff to begin with, the Sheriff contacting the base, Blanchard sending out his two top intel officers to investigate, the press release about a "flying disc", Ramey saying it was being sent to Wright Field for analysis quickly followed by his weather balloon debunkery, the actions by people like Gen. Vandenberg at the Pentagon, including putting out a press release just before the one at Roswell that the flying saucers definitely were NOT "space ships".

2. After the spectacular, very public supposed SNAFU by senior officers at Roswell, there was no standard postmortem investigation by the brass to find out what was wrong at their one and only A-bomb base. None of the officers suffered any repercussions, in fact Blanchard became a 4-star general and Marcel was being praised by people like Ramey as "outstanding" a year later.

3. The official story in 1947 is full of very serious internal inconsistencies and contradictions, including the principals not being about to agree on basics of what happened and what was found. This strikes me as the result of a very hastily concocted and loosely coordinated cover story. Slips of the tongue by principals pointing to something other than a weather balloon also support this, such as Marcel saying the debris field covered a square mile and Ramey saying the object would have been 25 feet across if reconstructed. Ramey also admitted to very high security being imposed from the Pentagon.

4. Tacit admissions in 1947 that a coverup was in effect, from Sheriff Wilcox admitting to working with the base when he refused to answer a simple question about what Brazel found to wire-service Roswell stories stating up-front that the military was running a "concentrated campaign to stop the rumors." Part of this were the many documented military balloon demonstrations stating that this explained the saucers and Roswell. Also the Dallas FBI telegram stating that Wright Field did not agree with the balloon/radar target explanation the FBI had just been given by Ramey's spokesperson.

5. Absolutely massive witness testimony in the present day to highly anomalous debris, bodies recovered, and threats to witnesses.

6. The Ramey memo, with very clear references to the object being a "disc" and bodies being found and dealt with. This was followed by an outline of how they were planning to cover it up, starting with the base press release, the next press release ("PR") "of weather balloons" and adding balloon demonstrations to make the story more credible.

Yes, that IS the short version, because it IS complicated.

Terry the Censor said...

> Terry asked me a ways back why I thought there was a coverup

I did not, and would never, ask such a thing.

David Rudiak said...

I just wrote: "Terry asked me a ways back why I thought there was a coverup."

Terry responded: I did not, and would never, ask such a thing.

Context: I originally wrote that various participants (Brazel, Sheriff Wilcox, Whitmore Sr., etc.) were behaving oddly: "None of these actions by these people make any sense on their own except in a bigger context of someone else running the show." Yes, I was asserting conspiracy, cover-up by authorities, whatever you want to call it.

Terry responded:
With respect, Dr. Rudiak, when the answer to a supposed mystery is, "It's a conspiracy," that is not compelling.

Your speculations about these incoherent facts are worth considering, but do they lead to new evidence, new avenues of investigation?

(I am not disputing the evidence presented, just questioning the reasoning.)


Which sounded to me like you were requesting a more detailed clarification of my reasoning about a coverup/conspiracy.

Lance said...

Rudiak calling the supposed mention of bodies in the Ramey memo "very clear" shows the kind of delusional thinking we are dealing with. No one in his right mind would say that the memo "very clearly" mentions bodies.

This, in a nutshell, is the kind of pretend science that underpins the Roswell mythology.

His other points, to various degrees, also rely on the same kind of conspiracy-laced pious belief over fact.

In this conspiracy world, Marcel returned from Ft. Worth to Roswell, where his base was conducting a huge recovery effort, cordoning off areas, closing roads, controlling secrecy.

Every sergeant, cook, reporter, nurse, mortician, fireman, fireman's daughter, etc. etc. in the area knew about all this recovery effort.

The only person who didn't know? The BASE INTELLIGENCE OFFICER!

This monumentally silly idea may be rationalized (somehow!) by saucer buffs. But regular folks will just point and laugh upon hearing this whopper of a tale.

Lance

Nitram Ang said...

Perhaps it is fortunate that our blog editor is most likely sound asleep as we are getting more than a little off topic.. sound familiar anyone.

Lance - I'll deal with you first.
You stated:

"Rudiak calling the supposed mention of bodies in the Ramey memo "very clear" shows the kind of delusional thinking we are dealing with. No one in his right mind would say that the memo "very clearly" mentions bodies."

Perhaps you could refer to David as Dr Rudiak or Mr Rudiak or simply David regardless of whether you agree with him or not.

Your points about "bodies" are noted and yes, YOU ARE CORRECT - it cannot be said with absolute certainty that we are referring to bodies in the memo.

But also remember - and this is not something you should be trying to debate - that DR is regarded as "the authority" on the memo - he has spend many years trying to read it and it would not be that much of an exaggeration to say he is the "Tiger Woods" of the Ramey memo - so, I guess what I am trying to say, once again Lance (and CDA) is sit back, stay calm, and wait patiently to hear what the experts have to say... you don't need to argue with everything stated, simply because it couldn't be true so it can't be true.

Secondly you talk about the various witnesses and the fact that everyone new what was going on except Marcel

"Every sergeant, cook, reporter, nurse, mortician, fireman, fireman's daughter, etc. etc. in the area knew about all this recovery effort.

The only person who didn't know? The BASE INTELLIGENCE OFFICER!"

Yes, again, your selecting certain bits and pieces to suit a theory.
But you need to ask yourself this, why would someone like Marcel get so excited about some bits of foil that he wakes his family in the middle of the night to show them?

You need to watch the movie Lance? Let's assume that your right and the stuff in Ramey's office was NEVER switched then what do we make of the "Intelligence Officer's" IQ huh?

If it could be proven that the material in the photographs is exactly the same material that was found then I think everyone would be in agreement on the matter. But even today's witnesses so this is not the material they handled...

I still can't understand your motivation Lance - since your so convinced of the "official explanation" (I forget what number of office explanation, but that's another matter) why do you continue to fight against everyone who poses a different view?

Quite simply Lance - like me, you not really sure are you? - be honest, nobody will bag you for it.

DR:

We probably didn't need to have the "Ramey Memo" introduced at this time... you only have to mention those two words and people go ballistic!

Carry on team!

Regards
Nitram

cda said...

"I guess what I am trying to say, once again Lance (and CDA) is sit back, stay calm, and wait patiently to hear what the experts have to say..."

We have been listening to these 'experts' ever since THE ROSWELL INCIDENT came out in 1980.

We have had an untold number of such 'experts' pronouncing on this and that, and contradicting other experts.

So what exactly are you expecting in the future from these, or other, Roswell experts? Some actual hardware would be a start. Dream Team, where are you?

As for the Ramey memo there is, or was, a team known as RPIT, who were also 'experts' on this memo. But their interpretation of its contents did not match with Dr Rudiak's in several places.

Never mind, even experts can disagree. And how.

And yes, Kevin is probably bored to death by this discussion.

David Rudiak said...

CDA wrote:
As for the Ramey memo there is, or was, a team known as RPIT, who were also 'experts' on this memo. But their interpretation of its contents did not match with Dr Rudiak's in several places.

The more important point is that there is good agreement on about 40-50% of what the memo says, including critical words like "weather balloons" and "at Roswell", which clearly establishes that this is about Roswell, not Ramey's groceries.

And there is good to very good agreement on the critical words "the victims of the wreck" and "the 'disc'/'disk'"

For a comparison of various reads, see:

http://www.roswellproof.com/Ramey_memo_compare.html

"There are about 65-71 visible words (depending on reader) from lines 1 to 9 consisting of about 320 read characters (excluding spaces). There is currently plurality to unanimous consensus on about 76% of the words/letters and strong consensus to unanimous agreement on about 41% of the words/letters (at least 2/3rds of readers agree), with 48% consensus on majority to unanimous reads (at least 5 readers agree). I (Rudiak) currently agree with 99% of the overall stronger consensus word/letter reads (50% or more of readers), but drop to about 75% overall agreement when weaker consensus words/letters are added. I have strong disagreements with consensus where I consider letter counts to be wrong, grammar poor, and/or poor semantics or sensibility in group reads."

I am currently in the process of a computer OCR read, in which the computer rates the relative probability of letters and words. Computer programs do not believe in a "saucer Jesus" or Lance's equivalent CSICOP Jesus.

What this study has revealed so far is that various people are NOT reading just what they want to see (the usual skeptical put-down of the Ramey memo), but are trying to formulate letters and words from letters the computer generally rates as the more probable ones. In other words, the computer "sees" the same more-likely letters as human readers do.

For example, the words "WEATHER BALLOONS" that everyone agrees on (which is why I use it as a control to see how well the program works), "WEATHER" has 6 of 7 letters that rank right at the top as #1 or #2 in probability. It is the highest ranking word in the memo. Only the "H" is poor at #13, but that doesn't affect the overall read. It could only be "WEATHER".

For "BALLOONS" the results are not as good, but there are three #1's (A, N, S) and 6 of 8 in the top quartile of letters (top 6). One letter (first L) is middling at #9 and the second O is very poor at #19, but again not every letter needs to be great to deduce what the word is from the good letters and the vital context. E.g., the second L is #3. The three #1 letters plus the one high-ranking L confirm that the word is BALLOONS. Do word searches, and BALLOONS is the ONLY possible word that makes sense in the given context, unless you believe "WEATHER RAILGUNS" or "WEATHER WALLOONS" make sense.

"VICTIMS" also ranks high. 4 of 7 letters are top 3, 5 of 7 are top 4, 6 of 7 are top 5. It has the most top-ranking letters of all words proposed for that spot, such as REMAINS, FINDING, VIEWING, and VENTING. REMAINS, FINDING, and VIEWING, in fact, all rate poorly. Only VENTING is comparable, ranking a little below in top-ranking letters and slightly higher if you add up the individual letter probabilities.

Lances idiotic "Saucer Jesus" has nothing to do with it.

KRandle said...

All -

We have slipped way off topic again. This was about the remaining first-hand witnesses to part of the Roswell case, not all these other issues.

Move back on topic, or I will delete the posting.

Terry the Censor said...

> Which sounded to me like you were requesting a more detailed clarification of my reasoning about a coverup/conspiracy.

Haha!

Dr. Rudiak, look at your record of long and innumerable comments. I suggest everything sounds to you -- and to you alone -- like a request for more details.

I asked if your speculations led to something new. I did not ask for more and more of the same. I would never ask for that!

Alien said...

Lance has made his mind up. Don't bother him with facts

Terry the Censor said...

@Alien

Copy and pasting Stanton Friedman's broad-stroked bombast shows me you are someone who follows, not thinks.

deanwill14 said...

is sheridan cavitt still alive