Thursday, June 14, 2018

A New Roswell Solution?

Well, we have a new solution to the Roswell case. No, it’s not a weather balloon as the Army Air Forces claimed in 1947 and no, it’s not a Project Mogul balloon that many skeptics and the Air Force have claimed, starting with Robert Todd in the early 1990s (or late 1980s) but something called a satelloon. This was, is, a huge polyethylene balloon that had been covered with a thin layer of aluminum to enhance the reflective properties and create a passive communications satellite or something like that.

Dr. Bob W. Gross appeared this last week (June 12) on Martin Willis’ show, UFO Live. Gross, who had lived in New Mexico from 2001 to 2010 and who traveled all over the state, thought that he had the solution to the Roswell case. Naturally, I was skeptical. You can listen here (Roswell begins in the second hour):


And you can read more about his theories here:

Here’s the problem as I see it. Gross has cherry-picked his evidence to bolster his theory. He talked of the debris field and the metallic residue that had been collected there. These were fragments of one of these aluminumized balloons that had exploded and rained down the debris or so he claimed. Apparently, they can explode. See:

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4308/ch6.htm

But the problem is that he has ignored the other debris found there as described to me by Bill Brazel. Brazel said:

There was only three items involved. Something on the order of balsa wood and something on the order of heavy gauge monofilament fishing line and a little piece of… it wasn’t really aluminum foil and it wasn’t really lead foil but it was on that order…
Bill Brazel. Photo copyright by
Kevin Randle.
While the piece of aluminum-like material could have been the remains of one of these satelloons, the other two pieces were not. According to Brazel, you could shine a light in one end and have it come out the other, or, in other words, he was talking about fiber optics. And the balsa like material was so strong that he couldn’t get a shaving using his pocket knife.

Gross also said that these satelloons took on a disk shape, at least the early versions did and that some of them were tested in New Mexico, hidden in the Mogul arrays. In my many communications with Charles Moore, among others, nothing like that was ever mentioned, and I suspect that if the Air Force could have connected these two events together, they would have done so.

Charles Moore. Photo copyright by
Kevin Randle.
The real problem with this theory is that I can find nothing to support the idea that the testing was going on in New Mexico in 1947. In fact, there is quite the history available on the topic and the research around it. You can find more about all this and Project Echo satelloons here:


And the history of these “Giant Spheres” here:

And here:


And to confuse the issue even more, or maybe clarify some of the research into it, take a look at this:

http://badufos.blogspot.com/2017/09/another-nonsensical-explanation-for.html#comment-form

While I can find nothing that suggests any of this was going on in 1947, Gross alluded to witnesses and documents that could do that. If true, then he might have something. However, it is difficult to ignore the information about the debris provided by Brazel and Jesse Marcel, Sr., and several others who handled it in 1947, which doesn’t fit with his descriptions.

And, while Gross said that he found no testimony of anyone seeing the flying saucer crash, there are those who reported seeing a more intact structure, not on the debris field, but on a secondary site some distance away. That testimony seems to have escaped his research.


No, the problem is that all the information that I have been able to find does not put any of these strange balloons in New Mexico in 1947. Unless he can do that, this falls into the same category of the anthropomorphic dummies that Captain James McAndrew used in his attempt to explain the bodies reported by some of the witnesses. The timing is just flat wrong. If the dummies weren’t being dropped in 1947 and the satelloons weren’t being tested in 1947, then the explanations fail at that point. We must wait, however, for Gross to provide the additional documentation and witnesses that he claims to have before providing a final analysis. That will be coming in his book.

18 comments:

purrlgurrl said...

I listened to the show. I don't take issue with Dr. Gross' Kecksburg explanation because I've never at any time believed this was anything other than a piece of something that was launched from Earth that came back down in an unexpected way. This one is case closed for me.

I thought the Roswell Satelloon was a big stretch, even though I've always believed that what happened at Roswell was a top secret test gone awry. Just because Brazel and Marcel didn't recognize the debris material, that doesn't make it ET, not by a long shot.

I wasn't convinced by Dr. Gross the accident at Roswell was caused by a Satelloon (how I love that word!). But I still believe it was a purely terrestrial accident.

Larry said...

According to the Mogul project records, polyethylene balloons were not available during their June campaign. If they had been, the Mogul team would have used them. As I recall, they were available later that year and basically solved the constant altitude problem. That set the stage for really long duration flights (multiple days).

Larry said...

Gross' explanation for the Kecksburg incident as being a film bucket from a KH Corona spacecraft is easily debunked. The only Corona spacecraft that was in the air that day was the KH-4A 1027.

Here is a pointer to the launch data:

https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/spacecraftDisplay.do?id=1965-102A

The film buckets were returned to Earth two days later and accounted for.

There are other discrepancies, as well.

Nitram Ang said...

Hi Kevin

Interesting, that after all these years, we still don't have a logical, proven terrestrial explanation...

Regards
Nitram

John Steiger said...

Does Dr. Gross account for the special properties of the metal? Account for multiple crash sites? Account for a 500 foot long gouge in the Foster Ranch debris field? And account for the wood carvings of the "little men" observed by Sgt. Thomas Gonzales?

Dr. Bob Wenzel Gross said...

On or about Thursday, June 14, 2018, Kevin Randle wrote: “The real problem with this theory is that I can find nothing to support the idea that the testing was going on in New Mexico in 1947.” Fortunately, I am an aggressive researcher. I DID find something to support the idea that such testing was going on in New Mexico during 1947. Randle went on further to state: “While I can find nothing that suggests any of this was going on in 1947, Gross alluded to witnesses and documents that could do that.” Randle is correct. I do have documents that support my findings. But, at this time, I don’t want to ruin my book-in-progress for anybody. Moreover, Randle is also correct when he states: “We must wait, however, for Gross [Dr. Bob Wenzel Gross] to provide the additional documentation and witnesses that he claims to have before providing a final analysis.”

Dr. Bob Wenzel Gross said...

Larry's statements above are somewhat weak and inaccurate. The two golden film buckets were NOT returned to Earth two days later [December 11, 1965]. An accurate account of the Kecksburg UFO mystery is included in a whitepaper report that can be found at www.bobwenzelgross.com.

John Steiger said...

ADDENDA: Dr. Gross writes in Part 2 of "An Extraterrestrial Flying Disk Crashed Near Roswell in 1947: Not a UFO (May 18, 2018), [see www.theufochronicles.com] as follows:

"Colonel Thomas J. DuBose was present when the alleged Roswell wreckage arrived at Fort Worth in 1947. DuBose was brought into General Ramey’s office where he viewed the rubble. Decades later, during an interview, DuBose was asked if the original debris in General Ramey’s office had been switched with the remnants of a weather balloon. DuBose answered that the material was never switched."

This statement is inaccurate to the extent that anyone equates the "wreckage" arriving from Roswell with the "rubble" on the floor of General Ramey's office. They are not one and the same. While one can quibble over whether there was a switch made or not, according to Col. DuBose, the "rubble" photographed in Ramey’s office was part of a weather balloon, and this same "rubble" was not the "wreckage" from Roswell. Instead the "wreckage" from Roswell was flown on a special flight from Ft. Worth to Wright-Patterson. According to DuBose, this special flight occurred even despite Gen. Ramey informing [misleading/lying to] the press that he was cancelling the special flight to Wright-Patterson.

Finally, I note that Dr. Gross uses "alleged Roswell wreckage," "rubble," "original debris," "remnants of a weather balloon," and "material" all in the same paragraph as descriptive terminology. Such variety of description cannot help but obfuscate truthful meaning herein.

KRandle said...

Bob Gross -

Until you present the evidence (and I understand your desire to hold it close to the vest prior to the publication of your book) we have nothing to corroborate. I can't review the documents or talk to the witnesses. I can only go by what I have found which suggests that this is not the answer.

Nor have you addressed the descriptions of the material found on the Foster ranch by Brazel. Mack Brazel and Jesse Marcel, Sr. handled it then. Mack Brazel showed it to the Proctors, and a couple of others which was described in affidavits that have been published in a variety of sources. Bill Brazel handled it later and described it in terms that do not seem to lead to satelloons. Of the men in General Ramey's office in July 1947, none of them seemed to talk of anything that matched the descriptions of a satelloon. What was seen in Ramey's office was clearly the remains of a neoprene rubber weather balloon and a rawin radar target.

We will have to see if the evidence that will be presented at some future date fits the facts and leads us to a satelloon.

KRandle said...

All -

Colonel DuBose is on the record, meaning on video tape, and in interviews with others saying that the material was switched. The idea that it was not can be traced to Jaime Shandera who has no evidence that DuBose ever said such a thing to him. Don Ecker and Kris Palmer (of NBC's Unsolved Mysteries) reported that Dubose said the debris had been switched. Others who interviewed DuBose said the same thing. This whole sorry episode has been discussed here and in magazines. It is too bad that Bob Gross missed that.

Larry said...

Bob Gross wrote:

“An accurate account of the Kecksburg UFO mystery is included in a whitepaper report that can be found at www.bobwenzelgross.com.”

And for which you want to charge 5 dollars.

Why can’t you just summarize in a few sentences what the main points are?

Paul Young said...

Bob. When the "case closed" report came out, why would the US Air Force lie, just for the sake of a satelloon?

I totally understand why they still might want to cover up a flying saucer crash and blame it on Project Mogul...but would they still be trying to cover up the crash of a satelloon as late as 1994?

In short, if it was a satelloon and not a Mogul, why wouldn't they have told us that in 1994...What would be the point of lying?

Dr. Bob Wenzel Gross said...

Larry:

I have a doctorate from Penn State University--a highly ranked research institution. My doctoral dissertation was awarded an "excellent" rating because of high quality research. I have been a UFO field investigator since 1985. Yes, I am asking $5.00 for the whitepaper reports on my website [www.bobwenzelgross.com]. How much does one usually pay for manuscripts written by UFO researchers? I'm sorry, but I can't summarize decades of intense research in a few sentences. Regardless, some articles that I have written may be found on www.theufochronicles.com. You should be able to find my 2017 Kecksburg article there. My article "An Extraterrestrial Flying Disk Crashed Near Roswell in 1947: Not a UFO" (May 18, 2018) is available there to read as well. I hope that helps you out. My newest book-in-progress will provide much more additional information than my current articles and whitepapers contain. Best of luck, Dr. Bob Wenzel Gross. . . .

Larry said...

As a follow-on to my previous comment, readers who-like me-are unwilling to pay $5 for the privilege of reading Bob Gross's "whitepaper" may be interested in a thorough debunking of his claims that appeared on the badufos blogspot in September of 2017:

http://badufos.blogspot.com/2017/09

In that discussion, they display Bob's grandiosity with his introductory words:
"On or about June 1, 2016, I declared that the Kecksberg case would be my inaugural attempt at unravelling an established (fifty year old) UFO mystery. I gathered and analyzing (sic) new relevant data from the existing literature. Thus, I closed the Kecksberg case, once and for all, by applying scientific methodology to aggressive research. I strongly believe I solved the Kecksberg enigma."

The essence of Bob's explanation is:
"Instead of heading south, the rocket system headed for a launch trajectory that would cut a northeasterly path across the United States…In an attempt to regain control of Satellite KH-4A 1027's orientation, the foreword (sic) recovery vehicle (SRV-1) was separated from the spacecraft. The separation was done at some time before the engine burn that would have injected the satellite into orbit…..Fortunately, jettisoning SRV-1 resolved the Corona satellite's attitude control problem for the time being"

As the writers at Badufos document, every single sentence in that explanation is total bullshit. The "explanations" are just made up out of nothing but Bob's vivid imagination and are absolutely contradicted by the available records. In addition to the information which I pointed to previously at the NASA website, the once classified records of that particular mission were declassified by the National Reconnaissance Office in 1997. They show in no uncertain terms that the Thor and Agena stages both functioned normally and injected the Corona spacecraft into the intended (polar) orbit. Once on orbit, the pressurized gas attitude control system of the spacecraft failed to switch from the high-gain mode into the low-gain mode, which resulted in depleting the gas at a higher than planned rate. By orbit 15, the spacecraft was no longer able to maintain sufficient pointing accuracy to produce useable photos, so the first film bucket was returned to Earth on orbit 17 and the second one was returned on orbit 33. The declassified documents give the exact coordinates (in the Pacific Ocean) of the locations where the film buckets were recovered. It explains that the first one was recovered in the "lifeboat" mode (i.e., after it fell into the ocean) and the second one was recovered while still on the parachute. Since the orbital period of the spacecraft was 1.5 hours, 33 orbits amounts to 49.5 hours, or a mission duration of just over 2 days.

Adam S. said...

Hi Kevin,

I have read that Mac Brazel was placed under guard for about a week following the events. Is this aspect true or false?

Thanks in advance,

KRandle said...

Adam S -

According to what his son told me, what various neighbors told and what Major Edwin Easley the base provost marshal told me, Brazel was held for a number of days on the base and in the guest house.

Adam S. said...

Thanks Kevin for responding so quickly. Did Easley or Brazel's son ever say why he was held for so long on the base?

09rja said...

"And, while Gross said that he found no testimony of anyone seeing the flying saucer crash, there are those who reported seeing a more intact structure, not on the debris field, but on a secondary site some distance away."
--------------------

The thing to remember about that is: none of the original Roswell eyewitnesses mentioned anything about a intact craft or bodies. That's an important distinction because the pro-UFO Roswell people want to tell you that people like Jesse Marcel would have known about Mogul....but he missed this.

And by "original eyewitnesses" I mean those who came forward in the late 70's early 80's time frame and were first hand eyewitnesses. (And by the way, that automatically disqualifies (people like) Barney Barnett because he was never interviewed by any UFO investigator on this subject.)