HIckson/Parker Lost Interview Tapes Recovered

Blogger’s Note: We are told, based on the scientific research of, well scientists such as Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, that memories fade rapidly. The best testimony is that taken within five days of the event. That taken within hours is certainly preferrable to that taken months, years, or decades later. We are told that each time we access a memory, it can by changed by the simple act of attempting to remember.

Dr. Ulric Neisser tested this in 1986 when the space shuttle Challenger exploded. He provided his first-year psychology students with a short questionnaire about the disaster asking, for example, how they had learned of the event, where they were and what they had been doing. He gave the same questionnaire to those same students as they finished their college education four years later. He found that about a quarter of them had memories that were at odds with what they had written on the day or two after the event. About half had some confusion or mistakes in their memory and about a quarter had accurate memories of the event.

The simple point here is that in any investigation, it is best to interview the witness as soon as possible. That as time passes memories can change with new information added and older information lost. When investigating the Pascagoula abduction of Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker, any information gathered within hours or a couple of days of the event is preferrable to that gathered decades later. If there is a discrepancy, the best course is to accept the first information over that gathered later.

I say all this as preamble to the following press release, that reports on audio files of the interviews conducted by Dr. James Harder and Dr. J. Allen Hynek literally within hours of the reported abduction that have recently been found. It provides a necessary history of APRO and the research conducted by that organization. It also reports on the project headed by David Marler to archive UFO related information in a central repository. Finally, it mentions the recovery of taped interviews with Hickson and Parker that had resided in the APRO files recently obtained by Marler’s project called National UFO Historical Records Center. This is, for UFO research, a truly historic find.

The Pascagoula Tapes.

Please note one other aspect of this. Unlike the situation in the past, in which researchers often withheld information for their own use, here is an example of sharing the information as soon as it was discovered. It is a move toward a more scientific attitude in UFO research. One that we all should take as a model.

 

NEWS RELEASE – HISTORIC AUDIO FILES OF THE 1973 PASCAGOULA ENCOUNTER RECOVERED FROM THE ‘LOST’ APRO FILES (PLEASE SHARE).

 For decades, the civilian American UFO research group APRO (Aerial Phenomena Research Organisation) was the go-to UFO group headed by married couple Jim and Coral Lorenzen. Like most UFO groups it gradually faded away to be replaced by something else. APRO was without a doubt a pioneering UFO group and for decades after they closed down access to their archive of UFO files and related material was impossible.

It was therefore great news when David Marler, Executive Director of the National UFO Historical Records Center in Albuquerque, New Mexico put out a  press release. It seems coincidental that in early November 2023 I had been discussing the location of various files on social media when this great news was released by David Marler, the Executive Director of NUFOHRC.  It took the UFO community completely by surprise. Here is the press release in full dated November 28th 2023: 

The Aerial Phenomena Research Organization (APRO) was one of the oldest and largest civilian UFO research organizations in the world. The research files of this organization have been transferred to the National UFO Historical Records Center (NUFOHRC) in Rio Rancho, NM.   

Dave Marler and the Pascagoula Tapes.

  

Press Release

11-28-23

Dr. J. Allen Hynek, former Scientific Adviser to U.S. Air Force Project Blue Book, cited APRO and NICAP (National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena) the best civilian UFO groups of their time. Both of these collections of UFO archival records along with the files of the Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) are now housed at the headquarters of NUFOHRC.

APRO was founded in 1952 by Jim and Coral Lorenzen, later based in Tucson, AZ. NICAP was started in 1957 in Washington D.C. by Major Donald Keyhoe. CUFOS was founded in 1973 by Dr. J. Allen Hynek in Chicago, IL. All of these records are in the process of being digitized for electronic storage, analyzation, transfer, and ease of access.

The collective files of APRO, NICAP, CUFOS, as well as Dr. J. Allen Hynek’s original U.S. Air Force Project Blue Book files, constitutes the largest civilian historical UFO case file collection in the United States, if not the world.

An appropriate site is being sought in the Albuquerque, NM area for a permanent facility to house this massive collection of UFO research data.

The facility will allow for public access to the UFO data as well as viewing of historic photos and artifacts from the UFO research field. NUFOHRC plans to cooperate with civilian, scientific, and governmental UFO research efforts.

Never in U.S. history has such a vast quantity of UFO records (numbering in the tens of thousands) been centralized in one location.

As a 501(c) (3) non-profit organization, a tax-deductible donation may be made to NUFOHRC to fund a free-standing public archive building which will make these files and other historical materials more readily accessible for UFO researchers, academics, scientists, and U.S. government organizations. Donations can be made online or via mail.

For more information, contact Executive Director David Marler at: dbmarler@outlook.com

National UFO Historical Records Center

P.O. Box 15541

Rio Rancho, NM 87174

www.nufohrc.org

 

In short David Marler and NUFOHC were now in  possession of what I called the Holy Grail of civilian UFO research files. I have known David Marler for a number of years and I was happy to donate my own humble collection of UFO files and related material to NUFOHRC in 2023. David knows what projects and topics I am working on but it was going to take a good amount of time to go through the APRO files but I was confident that these long ‘lost’ files were now safe and could bear fruit.

The Pascagoula Tapes

Since 2018 I have been working with Calvin Parker on his encounter on the Pascagoula River, Mississippi on October 11^th 1973. I worked with Calvin Parker right up until he died in August 2023. I spoke with him on the phone shortly before he died and told him that I’d continue to be the torch bearer for his and Charles Hickson’s encounter and the search would go on for more material.

Thankfully, I was joined in this research by my friend and colleague Dr Irena Scott from Ohio, USA. Over the last five years we have had amazing support from UFO groups and individuals around the world who have supplied us with all they have on the Pascagoula encounter. There are too many to mention but working with these amazing colleagues we have uncovered: documents and photos of the minor injuries on Parker & Hickson, the full transcript of their interview at Keesler AFB, the full unredacted US Coast Guard documents on the USO sighting in the Pascagoula River and the list goes on and on. This is a great example of how UFO researchers can work together. Nothing has come from the false claims of those stating that they ran a MoD UFO project or a secret DoD UFO study. The same applies to so-called ‘whistle-blowers’. They have put nothing on the table. In fact the whole ‘disclosure lobby’ has ignored the subject of alien abductions.

Dr Irena Scott and I have also obtained firsthand eyewitness testimony from UFO witnesses that first spoke up in 1973 and others who we have either located ourselves or have stepped out of the shadows in these last five years. In  fact they are still coming forward with several new witnesses being interviewed in the last few months. Some of these witnesses were in the direct vicinity of where Parker & Hickson had their encounter. Mr Charles Anderson was driving across the bridge that goes over the Pascagoula River when he saw the ‘blue UFO’ down below him. Mr Louis Lee was working on the opposite side of the river that night as a crane driver in the shipyard. As soon  as he got in  his cab he could see this ‘darn thing’ out over the river. And most fascinating of all are Mr and Mrs Blair. They were on the opposite side of the river that night and saw the Parker/Hickson encounter and they had their own alien abduction experience as well. 

HISTORIC AUDIOFILES OF THE 1973 PASCAGOULA ENCOUNTER RECOVERED FROM THE ‘LOST’ APRO FILES 

It was much to my surprise and delight that I received a message from David Marler on Thursday December 28^th (2023) asking the following:

“Do you have any of Harder’s regressive hypnosis tapes related to Pascagoula? I just found one in the APRO audio tapes. I’m listening to Calvin under hypnosis. Yes. I’m not with it now. But there are references to the event occurring just days before. Also, there is recorded discussion between Hynek and Fred Diamond.”

I replied immediately that I did not have this material and could I have a copy please. David, being the gent and genuine UFO researcher that he is, digitized these audio cassettes for me and they are now with me and Dr Irena Scott.

A colleague is already on standby to try and boost the sound quality of these files and they will be sent to him shortly.

There are five separate audio sequences. They are:

1. Dr James Harder hypnotic regression on 10-14-73 (October 14^th, 1973) of Calvin Parker re Pascagoula MS UFO incident on 10-11-73.

2. Dr James Harder interviewed in wake of Pascagoula MS incident on10-11-73.

3. Pascagoula MS 10-11-73 incident interview with Hickson and Parker by Sheriff Fred Diamond.

4. Sheriff Fred Diamond Interviewed by Dr. J Allen Hynek re the Pascagoula Incident on 10-11-73.

5. Sheriff Fred Diamond plays secret recording of Calvin and Parker to Hynek re the Pascagoula Incident on 10-11-73.

At my request David Marler took a couple of photos of the original tapes including one of himself holding them. These photos and all of these audio files remain copyright David Marler/NUFOHRC.

It goes without saying that they are a huge find and are a significant part of the history of the 1973 Pascagoula alien abduction account and to the wider study of such experiences.  I cannot thank David Marler enough for his cooperation with this and for proving up with copies of this truly fascinating material.  David is still going through the APRO files and who knows what else might turn up. As yet we have not decided how to make this new information available in public. We will take it one step at a time with the first step being the enhancement of the sound quality of these audio files.

REQUEST FOR MORE INFORMATION

Dr Scott and I know that there are others out there that have more information on this case. With the greatest of respect all we ask is that whatever you might have, no matter how insignificant you might think it is, to please share it with us. We are looking for anything: newspaper cuttings, photos, correspondence, ephemera and so on.

OTHER WITNESSES

Over the last five years we have literally interviewed dozens of eyewitnesses to the UFO events back in 1973. Most of these witnesses were perfectly willing to allow us to use their real names. There were a few that were not happy with this so we simply used a false name instead. No problem. We are confident that there are still other witnesses out there that have yet to go on the record. What we would like to ask is for you to contact us and allow Dr Scott and I to document your sighting. We can do this in complete confidence if so required.

CONTACT

If you would like to contact us regarding any of the above I can be contacted on face via private message or directly on email:

https://www.facebook.com/philip.mantle.9

philip.mantle@gmail.com 

'X' Zone Broadcast Network - Philip Mantle and the UAP Hearings (Among Other Things)

 

By coincidence, I had scheduled an interview with Philip Mantle before I learned about the open hearing about UFOs, I mean UAPs, that was held on May 17. We both watched that hearing and spent the first part of the show talking about our impressions of it. Again, I was not very impressed with that hearing and Philip had the same general reaction. You can see the show here:

https://rumble.com/v159qkr-a-different-perspective-with-kevin-randle-interviews-philip-mantle.html?mref=yqkns&mc=7zk0c

Or can listen to it using the audio player to the left or just click here for the audio only link:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/49855180

We did talk about some other things as well. Philip, and his publishing company, Flying Disk Press, have been involved with Calvin Parker of Pascagoula fame. Parker

Philip Mantle

has written about his experiences in 1973 when he and Charles Hickson were abducted while fishing. I knew, based on the investigation that Philip and Dr. Irene Scott had conducted, that the witness base had expanded. This sort of thing is always worrisome when it comes about decades after the fact and I mentioned that to Philip.

Turns out that there were many witnesses to the blue, glowing object near the river that night that had been reported by Parker. Philip and Irene had talked to many of these witnesses, gathering more corroborative evidence. I, of course, am always a little skeptical of witnesses showing up long after the event. Here, however, not only were they interviewing the witnesses in our modern world, but they had evidence of those witnesses involvement in 1973. As I say, you can listen to Philip discuss this and verifying that many of the witnesses were interviewed in 1973. There is solid documentation to back that up. Makes the case just that much stronger.

We wrapped up the show with Philip talking about the new book he had written, UFO Landings U.K. It is, of course available on Amazon for those interested in learning about landing cases outside the United States. For ease, here is the Amazon link:

https://www.amazon.com/UFO-LANDINGS-UK-Philip-Mantle-ebook/dp/B09SD8LFJH/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1653008642&sr=8-1

Next week, I’ll finally talk with Michael Shermer, if everything works out. We had some trouble in the past with getting everything coordinated with him given his schedule and mine. This should be an interesting show given our diverging opinions.

Calvin Parker is Seriously Ill

 I have received word that Calvin Parker, one half of the Hickson-Parker abduction story has some serious health issues. Philip Mantle, who published Calvin’s books wrote, “My friend and colleague Calvin Parker in the USA hasn’t been well for a year or two now. After a number of medical tests his doctors have decided that he has to undergo surgery, possibly next week. I’ll not go into specifics but will say that he has a very serious medical problem the cost and the cost of constant hospital visits, tests and now an operation is simply beyond his means.”

Calvin Parker

As those of you who visit here often know, I’m not a fan of alien abduction stories. I believe there are terrestrial explanations for most of them running from poor interview technique, to psychological issues to outright hoaxes. There are few cases that I find intriguing and that don’t seem to fit that pattern. These are usually single events that take place outside in what I would consider targets of opportunity. The Hickson-Parker abduction fits into that pattern. Two guys, outside, when the abduction took place.

I met Charles Hickson many years ago at a UFO convention. His story was virtually the same as always with little in the way of corroborative detail. The big plus was that the local sheriff, after the abduction, left Hickson and Parker alone in an interrogation room with a recorder running. They said nothing to one another that would suggest hoax.

It was only in recent years that Calvin told his side of the story. I interviewed him twice for the radio version of A Different Perspective. I really didn’t detect anything that would suggest hoax. I just don’t believe that he is sophisticated enough to construct an elaborate hoax. Maybe a better way to say it is that there seemed to be no motive for it and his wasn’t the sort of character that would agree to do something like that.

You can listen to the two interviews I did with him by scrolling through the interview lists on the audio player to the left. You can decide for yourself. But I will note that others have been located that saw something strange that night and have been interviewed about those experiences. They tend to corroborate the story being told by Calvin today.

For those interested in supplying some financial assistance to Calvin, there is a Go Fund Me page. You can access the page here:

https://gofund.me/8b4b0e46

Normally I wouldn’t do anything like this, but then Calvin was kind enough to appear on the radio version of the blog twice and share his tales. Too often, those of us who do these sorts of interviews seem to forget about the guests when the show ends. I just thought Calvin deserved a little help with what will probably be monstrous medical bills.

Philip said that he would keep us all apprised of the outcome of the necessary surgery and I’ll post information here. Given that, I thought it only fair to repay his kindness with a note about his health and his needs. Help if you can and if you want to

Nick Pope, Nick Redfern, David Clarke, Philip Mantle and a Few Documents

 

As I have mentioned, I waded into this swamp on purpose. I had heard the negative things being said about Nick Pope and thought I’d provide him with a platform for his response. I did ask for some documentation. He didn’t send much, and again, as I mentioned, it didn’t actually verify his claims.

In response, I received a number of emails from Nick Redfern, Philip Mantle and David Clarke, often accompanied with documentation that seemed to effectively refute what Nick Pope had said. As usual, the fight deteriorated into name calling, though most of that was done by others whose comments I have refused to post here.

I thought I would make a couple of observations, and that I would post, at the end here, some of that documentation. That way readers can make up their own minds about who is right and who is wrong. I would hope that those opinions would be formed on the basis of the evidence, but this is Ufology and too often evidence isn’t all that important.

By way of qualification, I thought I’d add a bit about embellishment, which might be at the heart of all this. I sometimes say that I served as a company commander in Vietnam by virtue of being the senior surviving officer. It sounds quite dramatic and there is a nugget of truth in it. But I always then tell the rest of the story.

We’d had a rather bad month. The platoon leader and another pilot had been badly wounded when a grenade hit the front of there aircraft. The Aircraft Commander (AC) had been able to take off, and I was flying chalk two, meaning I was now lead.

There had been an aircraft accident that might have been the result of hostile fire, taking out the tail rotor of another helicopter. It crashed and the crew was injured. No one figured out if it was enemy fire or an accident, but those injured were evacked. We lost another AC due to ground fire and still another on a single ship mission.

Oh, and there had been those who DEROSed (Date Estimated Return from Over Seas) which meant they had gone home. The First Platoon was down to a single AC and a couple of Peter Pilots, that is FNGs.

We had learned, through intelligence, that the NVA and the VC planned an assault on Tay Ninh. We had been ordered to take the aircraft to another location, which meant that nearly every pilot, and every officer, was going to be gone. I had been assigned a new pilot before takeoff, and he climbed up on the stinger (that rod sticking out of the end of the helicopter to protect the tail rotor). When he grabbed the linkage, it broke, which meant we weren’t flying anywhere. In other words, he and I, were left behind.

It turned out, based on who had been with the flight and the evacuation of the aircraft and who was left behind, I was the senior officer present. I don’t really know if that seniority was based on rank or that I had been in Vietnam the longest of those of us left behind. Anyway, for ten or twelve hours, I was considered the senior officer present. I made one decision. We were required to supply an officer for bunker duty and no one had been designated. I was consulted by one of the senior NCOs left behind and told him who to send. That, I believe, is the extent of my “command.”

For those interested in more of my experiences in Vietnam you can find it here:

www. vietnamgroundzero.blogspot.com

The point here is that I could tell the tale without the qualifications. People who search records would find no documentation for it, though I think I could prove we had evacked the aircraft. And I can prove other aspects of this tale, so, as I say, there is an element of truth in it. It’s just when I tell the rest of the story, which I always do, the nature of that little hiccup in the command of the company is really not all that important. Just a fun little story about being the senior surviving officer.

And that brings us back to Nick Pope. It is clear that he was on the UFO desk at the MoD. It also clear that he was involved in the UFO investigation, though that involvement was taking down information about UFOs when someone called in or sent a letter. There is no doubt that he investigated UFOs, as he has said, but it is also clear that those weren’t official, MoD motivated investigations.

Leaving out some of the vitriol that has permeated this discussion over the years, and yes, I mean years, I think this puts it all into perspective. Now I returned to my regularly scheduled blog.

 

Nick Pope Revisited

 

Let’s start again. I was a little disturbed about the allegations slung at Nick Pope by Dr. David Clarke recently and that Nick Pope had not had the opportunity to respond to them. I also want to point out that I have no dog in this fight and was looking for a little fairness in all this. I expected some pushback, but, in this world today, who wouldn’t expect some pushback. I have now heard from a number of others about all this.

First, I suppose, is to answer the question of why Dr. David Clarke would bring this up now, if the issue had been settled decades earlier. According to what he told me; the simple answer is that he didn’t. He was responding to a question asked by Martin Willis during Willis’ podcast.

Nick Redfern - Photo copyright by
Kevin Randle

Second, all those who emailed me seemed to object to my use of the term “allegations” against Nick Pope. All who emailed me said that there had been no allegations, just statement of facts. One of those facts, an important one, had to do with Nick Pope’s duty at the MoD and whether or not he, Nick Pope, had conducted official UFO investigations. While serving in the MoD, Nick Pope had other duties and devoted only 20% of his salary to dealing with UFOs. In other words, the majority of his time went to other things. His UFO duties involved taking down the initial information about a UFO sighting and then passing it on to another organization. To quote Nick Redfern (and now you know why I kept saying Nick Pope), back in 1994, Nick Pope told Nick Redfern, “There is no specific ‘UFO budget,’ except the staff costs, i.e. around 20% of my salary, together with a tiny percent of some other salaries, reflecting my line management’s supervisory role.”

For those interested, here is a link to an article an Nick Redfern published a number of years ago that dealt with some of this:

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/08/u-k-government-ufo-research-the-real-picture/

That, of course, does not rule out Nick Pope having investigated UFO sightings. It suggests that there wasn’t much of a budget for any investigation. It could be said that the initial intake of information over the telephone is part of an investigation, though certainly not the most important aspect of it. However, there is additional information that is relevant to the discussion.

David Clarke noted in communication with me, “Sec(AS) [Secretariat Air Staff] where Nick worked 1991 – 1993 was not authorized or funded to investigate UFO reports.”

That seems to be fairly definitive but there is more relevant information. According to what David Clarke provided, “This is set out clearly in the attached policy document from 1997, written by Pope's line manager, that says any follow-up investigations that were required were carried out by the DI55 intelligence staff and/or the Royal Air Force.”

In still another document that came from official sources, and of which I now have a copy, it says:

Mr. Pope at one time served as EO (Band D) in the Secretariat Air Staff [a junior civil servant grade] ... [and] left Sec(AS) in 1994...and his knowledge of this issue, other than from publicly available sources, must be regarded as dated. Mr. Pope elected to describe his position as the "Head of the MoD's UFO Project", a term entirely of his own invention, and he has used his experience and information he gathered (frequently going beyond the official remit of his position) to develop a parallel career as a pundit on the topic, including writing several books, some purportedly non-fiction. Mr. Pope constantly puts himself forward in various parts of the media, solicited and unsolicited, as an "expert" (despite his lack of recent knowledge about the work carried on in the branch concerned) and seeks credit amongst other aficionados for having "forced" the MoD to reveal its "secret" files on the subject. The latter is far from the truth...

Finally, in what might be the final straw here, David Clarke provided the following, “In another document from the same period, the head of the Air Historical Branch (RAF) is even more forthright, saying ‘Far from accurately representing the Department's position, he [Pope] has sought to embellish the truth at almost every turn’.”

I suppose, that if you wish to be generous, you could say that taking the initial report and asking questions about it could be considered part of an official investigation. But that is really stretching a point and doesn’t accurately reflect the situation. The actual investigation into the reports that demanded additional work was carried about by other British government organizations and Nick Pope had virtually nothing to do with that.

But the real problem here is what Nick Pope published on his own website. Any errors, embellishments, alterations of fact can’t be blamed on the webmaster. Nick Pope approved the content. This biography said:

Nick Pope ran the British Government’s UFO project. From 1991 to 1994 he researched and investigated UFOs, alien abductions, crop circles and other strange phenomena, leading the media to call him the real Fox Mulder. His government background and his level-headed views have made him the media, film and TV industry’s go-to guy when it comes to UFOs, the unexplained and conspiracy theories.

Another aspect of this was that Nick Pope had apparently accused David Clarke of plagiarism and of being a needy, dishonest ufologist. The direct quote from David Clarke is, “Nick Pope has called me dishonest, a liar, a nut and a serial plagiarizer - despite providing absolutely no evidence for any of these things all of which are seriously defamatory.”

But this particular allegation has been debunked by Hayley Stevens a post to her blog which you can read here:

https://hayleyisaghost.co.uk/a-needy-dishonest-ufologist-revisiting-nick-popes-claims/

I mean you can disagree with someone but this is unreasonable. There is additional information contained in this post that sheds additional light on the problem. Some of the sources or documents she mentions I have seen and have copies for verification.

Philip Mantle

I’m not sure if this is piling on, or if it is relevant information. As noted above, Nick Pope claimed that he had investigated claims of alien abduction, crop circle formations or animal mutilations as part of his job at the MoD. Philip Mantle supplied the following information:

Just read this from UK documentary producer Matt Quinn. This was posted in the comments section of the martin Willis podcast:

From that reference Phillippe... "From 1991 to 1994 Mr. Pope worked as a civil servant within Secretariat (air staff). He undertook a wide range of secretariat tasks relating to central policy, political and parliamentary aspects of non-operational RAF activity. Part of his duties related to the investigation of unidentified aerial phenomena reported to the Department to see if they had any defence significance." This doesn't actually contradict what David Clark has said, and what has been 'common knowledge' for a very long time... it also completely fails to support in any way, Nick Pope's ridiculously-aggrandised claims... But in reality? I can only paraphrase Martha and the Muffins...

" _From nine to five, he had to spend his time at work His job was very boring as an office clerk The only thing that helped him pass the time away Was knowing he'd be back at Echo Beach someday_ " As we're 'buying' UK government publications (when it suits) do a search with the UK's National Archive service... And I do very much encourage you to do your own legwork; don't just take my word for it. I can tell you (as a media professional) that when 'Open Skies Closed Minds' was published it was generally received by the press as highly entertaining bollocks... riding a wave that was well in motion at the time. Just a 'jolly japes' type romp through an over-egged fantasy world... Good copy, bit of a laugh. But Nick Pope always had more in common with Dilbert than Mulder. The woman who got Nick Pope's job after him is called Kerry Philpott, and is on record stating there was no "strange phenomena section" at the MOD and that whilst Nick had been an 'EO' - Junior management grade administrator - just as she now was, she wrote "neither he nor indeed am I the head of any 'UFO' section"...

There is a chap called James Easton who is fairly well known here in Scotland as something of a 'UFOlogist'. Way back in 1999 he wrote an open letter to the MOD which posed many questions about Nick's duties and the MOD's locus in relation to various 'Fortean' phenomena... The response he got was. “The main duties of the post concern non-operational RAF activities overseas and diplomatic clearance policy for military flights abroad. A small percentage of time is spent dealing with reports from the public about alleged ‘UFO’ sightings and associated public correspondence. The MoD has not investigated a claim of alien abduction, crop circle formations or animal mutilation.” I'm sure it's now well over a decade since David Clark put that information up on his own site - over 20 since James got the response he did from the MOD and I honestly cannot tell you of anyone (except the incredibly non-credible) to whom that was in any way, shape or form a surprise. David Clark hasn't lied. - You don't have to like the guy, or not be disappointed at Nick. But David hasn't lied.  

This then, is the other side of the coin. I provided Nick Pope with a platform for his comments, and it is only fair that I supply the others with a similar courtesy. I’m inclined to say that the reader should take his or her own view of the material and decide what to believe. However, that is a somewhat weasel-worded claim for me to make. I waded into this swamp because I believed that Nick Pope should be heard, but now, having seen the other side, and although I think of Nick Pope as a friend (and can say the same about Philip Mantle and Nick Redfern), I must come down on their side of the fence.

What we see here is just another of the nasty fights that erupt in this field, though this one played out in the UK rather than here in America. If you care to comment, then you must be prepared for the consequences of that commentary. It had seemed to me, originally, that this was a bit of a fight over semantics, but it has, of course, ranged far beyond that. I don’t like the name calling or the allegations of plagiarism, having had that directed at me for a long time, but sometimes you just have to make a stand.

Here then, is what I believe to be the whole truth of the matter. And while I could say that I wish I had not involved myself in it, I would rather say that I think here is enough information that we all know the truth.

Following is one of those documents that seems to clarify the situation. I append it here for those who wish to see a little more of the evidence.

One of the documents that seems
to refute some of Nick Pope's
claims.

Did Nick Pope Investigate UFOs for the UK MoD?

 

In the UFO community, there are always disagreements and sometimes allegations are slung that have no basis in fact. I have been called a shill for the Air Force, I have been accused of working for Hector Quintanilla and Project Blue Book, and that I am an anti-abduction propagandist who writes fiction. The only truth in all that is that I do write fiction including science fiction but does that really disqualify me from UFO investigation? Wouldn’t my background in the military and my training in various fields suggest I can bring some important insights to UFO investigation?

Nick Pope

I say all this because Dr. David Clarke has again suggested that Nick Pope, sometimes described as Britain’s Fox Mulder (because the news media loves to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator) didn’t investigate anything officially. Clarke told Martin Willis, during Willis’ recent podcast, “There was a UFO desk when he was an incumbent for three years but he was just one of dozens of people who did that task and he didn’t actually investigate anything.”

Clarke went on to say that Nick Pope merely received the reports and that he then filed them. The people responsible for the investigations was the Defence Intelligence Staff, DISS. It was their job to conduct the UFO investigations that were believed to have some sort of military significance.

Clarke said, “I’ve interviewed most of the people who worked on this subject in DISS at that time and they tell me ‘well, Nick Pope didn’t have any involvement in this. We did the investigations, we didn’t share information with them because we didn’t trust them.” He meant that the civilian servants tended to leak information into the public arena which is why they didn’t trust them.

Of course, this really is nothing new. Clarke has raised these allegations in the past and Nick has refuted them in the past. This sort of thing seems to dot the UFO landscape. It doesn’t matter how many times the allegations are challenged; they seem to pop up again and again.

Philip Mantle, the force behind Flying Disk Press, and someone who can’t be seen as a skeptic, wrote to a number of UFO researcher around the world this last week:

Over the past few days social media has been buzzing regarding allegations made by Dr. David Clarke. Dr. Clarke was interviewed by Martin Willis on his podcast on the 18^th of November. At around halfway through this one hour interview Martin asked David about Nick Pope. As most of you will know Mr. Pope claims to have run the UK government’s UFO project and had officially investigated UFOs, crop circles and alien abductions as part of his MoD job. Dr. Clarke publicly stated that his is not the case and that Mr. Pope undertook no such work and there never was nor is there a UK government ‘UFO PROJECT’…

Dr. David Clarke is not the only source of information regarding Nick Pope. Personally I have been making my own enquiries which are still on-going. Although my enquiries are not yet complete I have seen and heard enough to convince me that Dr. Clarke is indeed correct. As a result just yesterday [November 25] I removed Nick Pope’s foreword for the revised edition of my book “WITHOUT CONSENT”.

Of course Nick Pope denies these allegations but now the ball is [simply] in his court. Can Nick Pope provide any official documentation that states he ran the UK government’s UFO Project? Well the MoD also claims that he did no such thing. If he can’t then is this the beginning of the end of Nick Pope?

Still, there is some smoke, but is there any fire. I particularly liked the idea that Nick present some sort of documentation. I have had the same sort of requests made of me when people wondered if I had been completely honest about my background. I provided the documentation, though a couple of times it took some convincing for the controlling agencies to release the data. I always attempt to supply the information requested to stop the rumors.

Nick Pope

I have also found that those who can’t provide the evidence tend to come up with the “I’m not going to dignify that request with any sort of response defense.” I’ve always taken that to mean that they can’t provide the evidence so they just dodge the question with this non response… Or they fall back on the old the records have been altered or have been destroyed. Huge red flags when dealing with these sorts of allegations.

I reached out to Nick Pope, who was, of course, aware of this latest brouhaha. Within minutes, I had an answer from Nick. He mentioned that this allegation had been around for years and it had been answered time and again. He pointed out that he had been interviewed on a number of high-level television, radio, and newspaper reporters and had appeared in numerous documentaries. He suggested that those reporters had vetted him and found his claims to be credible…

Well, given the state of journalism today, and knowing that documentary producers often have their own agendas, I wasn’t particularly swayed by that argument. Some might have checked, but I figure most hadn’t. They just believed what they were told because that was easier than doing any real investigation.

That wasn’t all he said. He provided a link to an official document that seemed to underscore what he claimed. You can read that here:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/vo060418/text/60418154.htm

If you scroll down slightly, you’ll find a question that was asked in the British parliament that seemed to suggest that Nick did investigate UFOs. It is not a ringing endorsement, but does suggest that Nick was telling the truth about his involvement, officially, in UFO investigations.

So, to answer Philip Mantle’s question, it seems that Nick did supply an official document that states he ran the project. For those who don’t want to go to all that trouble, here is that brief statement:

From 1991 to 1994 Mr. Pope worked as a civil servant within Secretariat (air staff). He undertook a wide range of secretariat tasks relating to central policy, political and parliamentary aspects of non-operational RAF activity. Part of his duties related to the investigation of unidentified aerial phenomena reported to the Department to see if they had any defence significance.

As I say, not exactly a ringing endorsement, but it the same sort of endorsement we’ve seen for Louis Elizondo and the AATIP project he might have run. We are now in a world of secrets and bureaucracies and double speak so it is hard to define the truth. At the moment we have no real answer, other than Nick did supply official documents but it didn’t go quite as far as I would have liked.

That’s not all. Since the bar was set very low, it wasn’t very difficult to overcome. Other official documents show that Nick did investigate UFOs while serving at the MoD. You can see some of them here:

https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/ufos/UK/defe-24-1972.pdf

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/ufos/UK/defe-24-2086.pdf

As a final bit of evidence, Nick was interviewed for a documentary and according to tht documentary, was the spokesman for the MoD UFO program. For those interested, you can watch it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2klCuyv5Tg

I will note, for those who don’t wish to watch the whole thing, that the relevant part begins at the fifteen minute mark.

Nick also wrote, “I don't think there's rivalry between David Clarke and I. I remember Clarke from the British UFO Research Association, so we're not rivals - merely people who come at this subject from different sides of the fence: him as a ufologist, me as someone who's looked at the phenomenon as part of my government job. Obviously, it's frustrating when someone misunderstands or misrepresents my government work, but the lie that I didn't investigate UFOs for the MoD was nailed years ago, and obviously the official website of British parliament is an unimpeachable source. QED.”

This whole thing might just boil down to one man making claims about another and that man providing evidence that those claims are false. Given that this has played out long before, this might just be much ado about nothing.

Coast to Coast - Calvin Parker

 

Those of you who visit here regularly know that I’m not a big fan of tales of alien abduction. I believe that the solution for most cases is based here on Earth and that some of the investigation has been less than stellar. I do think that if there are alien abductions, I believe they would be targets of opportunity rather than some sort of longitudinal study conducted over years or decades. As I have said to Kathleen Marden, I’m more inclined to accept the tales told by Barney and Betty Hill, Travis Walton, and Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker.

For those interested, I have interviewed Calvin Parker of Pascagoula fame, a couple of times on the radio version of A Different Perspective. You can listen to those interviews here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2019/03/x-zone-broadcast-network-calvin-parker.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2020/07/x-zone-broadcast-network-calvin-parker.html

Like many others, I have always been somewhat skeptical of single witness reports, or in the case of Hickson-Parker, two guys telling the same story from the same point of view. That means they were together and there didn’t seem to be any corroborating witnesses. In the case of the latest investigation by Philip Mantle, it seems that additional witnesses have

Calvin Parker

been uncovered, and Calvin and I talked about that in the second link listed above.

But now, however, their seems to be some additional corroboration. Rather than witnesses who appeared nearly fifty years after the fact, there is a document found by Mantle that was written literally hours after the abduction took place. Mantle wrote:

After the book was published [Pascagoula – The Closest Encounter: My Story by Calvin Parker] … I continued my search for any formal documentation related to the incident as any that had been in the possession of Calvin Parker had been washed away by hurricane Katrina. I contacted all of the major UFO groups one of which included the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies in the USA. They were very obliging and sent me a PDF file of what they had on the case. Most of what they sent was newspaper cuttings but buried in the middle of this file was a very curious and possible ‘smoking gun’ type-written document.

Although this document, dated 13^th of October 1973, just two days after the alien encounter, is unsigned it was written by Dr. James Harder. We know it was written by Dr. Harder as he was the only person to examine the witnesses which has been confirmed by Calvin Parker. Dr. James Harder’s academic credentials are as follows: BS (Caltech), MS, Ph.D., (U.C. Berkeley). He is a Fellow, AAAS; Life Member, ASCE; and Founding Member, Society for Scientific Exploration. Professor Emeritus, U.C. Berkeley. He was also a director of the UFO research group APRO.

Dr. Harder along with Dr J. Allen Hynek were on site in Pascagoula within 36 hours of the event happening. They interviewed Calvin Parker and Charles Hickson and at a press conference confirmed that they believed what the witnesses were saying.

It is important, in attempting to understand, the relevance of the document, to read first, what Calvin had to say about it:

At the time of my abduction on October 11^th, 1973   when the alien reached out to take me on board the ship. From the first time I saw them it was the fear I felt that is hard to describe. I just knew I would not live through this fear. As the alien made contact to my left arm, I heard a whisk of what I thought was air then all at once I got became really relaxed then all the fear was gone. Later on, after being examined by Dr. James Harder I heard him telling Dr Hynek that I had a puncture marks on my arm and later at the hospital I found out that I was given not one shot but two shots the second was while I was on board the craft. This document simply confirms what I have always known and that is both Charlie and I were given injections by these creatures and we had the puncture wounds to prove it.

Rather than me type in what is found on the document, the best course is to provide the document itself so that you can read it here.

Document found by Philip Mantle.

 Although the provenance of the document is not rock solid, the fact that it came from CUFOS and was among Hynek’s papers is relevant. It’s not as if the document appeared from an unknown location in the mail box of a UFO researcher. It does have a certainly level of credibility attached to it.

However, it would have been more powerful had it been signed by Dr. James Harder, and given what is known, it is reasonable to believe that Harder was the author. Given what is known, given the date of the document, it does provide us with some corroboration for the event told by Calvin Parker. It is up to each of us to decide what weight to give to it.