I
was surfing the net the other night and found a posting that suggested Jesse
Marcel, Sr., had violated regulations with his response to the report of debris
by Mack Brazel. The premise seemed to be that this was an aircraft accident and
military regulations provide for a precise, and classified, response to such an
event. Because of this breach of military procedure, we can ignore the
testimony provided by Jesse Marcel.
The
first note at this site was that Marcel had been so unimpressed with the
information that he finished his lunch and then made his way to the sheriff’s
office to find out what was going on. Marcel told Bill Moore, as reported in The Roswell Incident, “I was eating
lunch at the officers’ club when the call came through saying that I should go
out and talk to Brazel. The sheriff said that Brazel had told him that
something had exploded over Brazel’s ranch and that there was a lot of debris
scattered around… I finished my lunch and went into town to talk to this
fellow.”
This
certainly demonstrates no sense of urgency on Marcel’s part but we must
remember that Marcel had seen nothing, apparently not talked to Brazel, and
probably knew that whatever had happened, it had nothing to do with the 509th
Bomb Group… which means that had they lost an aircraft, Marcel would have
known. Besides it is clear from other interviews that the sheriff did not
initially believe Brazel’s story. With that, Marcel’s sense of urgency would have been aroused.
Phyllis
(Wilcox) McGuire, in July 1947, lived at the jail with her father George Wilcox
and she heard some of the exchanges that took place between the sheriff, the
rancher and the military. In an interview that Don Schmitt and I conducted on
January 27, 1990, McGuire said that the military arrived quickly, almost as if
they had been waiting for the call (and please don’t read anymore into that…
McGuire just said they got there to what she thought of as quickly). I mention
this only to point out that whoever wrote that other piece, saying that Marcel
didn’t seem to care, had not reviewed all the literature on the subject.
Now
if we wish to plow the field of speculation, as did that other writer, let me
say this. If I had been Marcel, and had the sheriff called me to tell me that a
rancher had found something that seemed to have exploded in the sky, I probably
would have checked with Operations to find out if any of our aircraft were
missing. Or, it could be that Marcel asked the sheriff when the debris was
found, and learning it wasn’t within the last twenty-four hours, knew that it
didn’t belong to the 509th, but it might have been something
launched from White Sands (if Marcel didn’t know that there was a moratorium on
launches after a rocket had fallen in Mexico that May… and yes, I know the
moratorium had been lifted, but the July 3 launch, the first in several weeks,
didn’t get off the pad).
So,
knowing that it is not one of the 509th’s airplanes, and suspecting
it was not an Air Force (Army Air Forces if you wish to get technical) aircraft,
and possibly knowing that it wasn’t something lost in the last twenty-four
hours, Marcel finished his lunch and drove to the sheriff’s office. There he
talked to Brazel, thought that something interesting had been found (after
looking at the debris Brazel had brought in), drove back to the base to consult
with his commander, and then, with Sheridan Cavitt, followed Brazel back to the
ranch. At no time was there speculation that this was an aircraft accident and
therefore, the analysis, based on this assumption, is now null and void.
Once
Marcel arrived on the debris field, and once he saw the wreckage there, he
would have known that it was neither aircraft nor rocket. It was not something
that required any special handling, if we are guided simply by regulations. If
it was a balloon, then there was nothing special about it and the regulations
do not come into play. If it was an alien spacecraft, and the skeptics are fond
of telling us that he wouldn’t have recognized it as such at the time… and if
the debris was of the few varieties mentioned by Bill Brazel and what Marcel
told Bill Moore, then the regulations didn’t come into play. There was nothing
on the field, at that precise moment, that would suggest to Marcel that this
required special handling.
The
point here is not to argue about what Brazel found or what Marcel saw, but to
refute the idea that Marcel violated regulations by his actions. This was not
an aircraft accident and those regulations simply did not apply. We can argue
about what Marcel should have done but we do know what he did. With Cavitt, he
picked up some of the debris. Cavitt headed back and Marcel stayed out there a
little longer. He then returned to Roswell… and never said a word about seeing
bodies or anything other than the strange metallic debris.
He
was then caught up in the whirlwind of the press release, and others, at a
higher rank (or pay grade if you wish to use today’s vernacular), made the
decisions. At no time, according to the available records or documentation, was
Marcel criticized about his response to the sheriff’s phone call or his
reactions to it. Given that, I think we can ignore the idea that Marcel
violated regulations. We can ignore that whole, ridiculous posting (and no, I’m
not publishing a link to it simply because I have no desire to drive traffic to
it).
46 comments:
Indeed nothing was said in the newspapers at the time about Marcel somehow screwing up a balloon ID and being responsible for the base flying disc press release. Instead AP somehow blamed the public information officer (Haut) for putting out the release (like he had a choice) while UP said it was Col. Blanchard's PR (more accurate).
Whether Marcel screwed up or violated regulations in any way also does NOT show up in his records afterward. Instead they reveal the following by superior officers involved in the Roswell affair:
www.roswellproof.com/marcel_evaluations.html
1. Blanchard and Dubose endorsed Marcel's application for promotion to Lt. Col. in the AF Reserve a few months later, which he got and became his retirement rank.
2. Blanchard upped Marcel's numerical ratings to "superior" from "excellent". Dubose endorsed Blanchard's evaluation and also recommended Marcel for command officer training.
3. Blanchard's replacement he following year, Col. John Ryan (Gen. Ramey's op officer during Roswell and future AF Chief of Staff) wrote a year later that Marcel's career had been most outstanding and exemplary.
4. Right after that, Ramey likewise wrote that Marcel was "outstanding", command officer material, and registered a mild protest about his transfer to higher intelligence at SAC (then Washington), saying he had nobody to replace him.
There's more, but that gives the flavor of Marcel's career arc after Roswell, not what one would expect from somebody who didn't follow regulations or screwed up.
I should add to the above list that Marcel was recommissioned the following spring. Commissions weren't easy to get back then since the military was still down-sizing after WWII. That would have been the perfect time to quietly dump Marcel if he was a big screw-up.
But no, they bring him back as head intelligence officer at Roswell, followed shortly afterward by transfers to higher intelligence work, with the SAC and Pentagon competing for him (also in Marcel's record). Eventually he ended up as chief briefing and intelligence officer for the very top-secret Special Weapons Project, involved in long-range detection of Soviet A-bombs (which ironically also involved Project Mogul).
Marcel's military record indicates that he performed reasonably well, and acted correctly, but also implies that the incident which he was so involved in (i.e. Roswell) had no significance to himself or his superiors. If it had, there would surely be some mention of it in the notes.
In particular, had he really been responsible for the recovery of an ET craft from the NM desert, we would certainly expect this to be mentioned, as it would constitute a unique experience, something never recorded before in the records of a serving military officer.
cda wrote:
Marcel's military record indicates that he performed reasonably well, and acted correctly, but also implies that the incident which he was so involved in (i.e. Roswell) had no significance to himself or his superiors. If it had, there would surely be some mention of it in the notes.
In particular, had he really been responsible for the recovery of an ET craft from the NM desert, we would certainly expect this to be mentioned, as it would constitute a unique experience, something never recorded before in the records of a serving military officer.
No, anything supersensitive would likely NOT show up in someone's personnel file.
Marcel Jr. wrote that his father's first job in the 509th in 1945 as aerial intelligence officer was planning the A-bomb attacks on Japan. But nothing about that shows up in the known service file, nor did Marcel Sr. ever publicly mention anything about it.
Some of the old Area 51 CIA guys have revealed they were given false employment records to hide what they really did at A-51. Similarly, the test pilots were given false histories, such as being at different bases flying different planes when they were really testing top-secret aircraft.
Marcel wasn't given a falsified history, but not all things he did showed up in his personnel file.
Just one more point to CDA:
My first posts about Marcel's personnel file after Roswell were to point out that not only was nothing negative about his performance in there that would suggest he mishandled Roswell in any way, he was also receiving praise about his performance and some bones were being thrown to him: he was recommissioned when commissions were hard to get, his performance reviews went up, not down, he was promoted in the Reserve to Lt. Col. rank, he was considered command officer material and recommended for command training, he was called "outstanding" by Ramey and a future USAF Chief of Staff (Ryan), he was fought over for higher intelligence work, etc.
But the standard debunker line is that Marcel screwed up at Roswell, misidentified a balloon, put out the press release on his own, was humiliated by Gen. Ramey, didn't follow protocol, was a pathological liar etc., etc., whatever the Marcel debunking talking point of the week is.
But nothing like that in his personnel file from the higher officers who knew his actual work product and character. Instead, nothing but praise afterward about him being a very high caliber intelligence officer.
The difference between how debunkers try to portray Marcel and his actual service record is like night and day.
I totally agree with DR's appraisal of Marcel, and agree with what Kevin said in his original post.
Yes, Marcel was rated as high caliber by his superiors.
But a reasonable conclusion from this is that there was nothing of significance attached to the Roswell affair, by his superiors or anyone else. If there had been, surely SOMETHING would have appeared in his records. Maybe only to write: "We are indebted to his skill and courage in dealing with an unknown object recovered from the desert....."
Falsified records? Once you start claiming certain records were falsified (e.g. to cover up something), why should we trust anything written in these personnel files?
I have never detracted from Marcel's achievements. I am merely saying his actions that day were of no consequence, and of no interest to anyone ever after.
Further thought:
What about Cavitt's records, or Rickett's, or Easley's, etc?
Has anyone examined these to see if, possibly, there is some mention of the Roswell affair (maybe under a false name) in these notes?
I find it very hard to believe that such mention, if it had any significance, would be completely expunged from these records.
"We are indebted to his skill and courage in dealing with an unknown object recovered from the desert...."
Come on. The object, or debris, was supposedly known, it was "a balloon." The only possible mention of Roswell in his record would've been that he "made a mistake." But it was not in fact a mistake; it wouldn't have been fair to tarnish his reputation for that, so the only option was...nothing.
The best way to evaluate whether Marcel made some blundering mistake at Roswell is to read his actual service record and the opinions of his superiors:
www.roswellproof.com/marcel_evaluations.html
To take a small snippet, read Blanchard's and Dubose's comments in the first evaluation of Marcel following Roswell:
http://www.roswellproof.com/Eval_Blanchard0548.html
Example in Section VII: "The degree to which he is able to descriminate and evaluate facts to arrive at logical conclusions." Rated 9 out of 10 or superior.
This is NOT the description of someone who made a "mistake" of confusing flimsy and decaying balloon materials with the reported high speed flying saucers in the news. One would think Blanchard would seriously downgrade Marcel in this category if that had happened (and other categories elsewhere in the evaluation).
You can also see Blanchard check the box at the bottom of the first page that the evaluation is based on "frequent observation of the results of his work."
The point is you don't have to directly say that Marcel did a great job of handling the crashed flying saucer thingee. You can infer it from the ratings and comments, including those of Dubose who you will also notice recommended Marcel for "Air Command and Staff School."
It's obvious from Marcel's Officer Evaluation Report that he was a solid performer for that particular reporting period and warranted promotion to LtCol.
How one can infer that based on his ratings and rater's comments that this is proof that Marcel was subtly being singled out for "his handling of a flying saucer crash" is simply and extremely far stretched.
Recommendation for "Air Command and Staff School" would have been typed in the rater's comments/recommendation block for other officer's as well, that is if the rater thought the individual so deserving of such. And such a recommendation did not guarantee that the individual would have been assigned a future slot in any Service School. That would have been decided by others in the command chain.
Kevin should know that OERs were/are interesting reports to decipher based on what is both said and not said.
I need to clarify that Kevin would know the intricacies of writing and reading OERs due to his experience of evaluating and rating other officers. My last sentence on my previous post tended to sound as if I were lecturing which was not the case.
Greetings friends,
Doctor David Rudiak wrote:
"The best way to evaluate whether Marcel made some blundering mistake at Roswell is to read his actual service record and the opinions of his superiors".
In other words, Doctor Rudiak is able and is inviting his "readers", that when he is reading Jesse Marcel's Service Record and the opinion of his superiors, what Roswell was or was not! An ET crash? A Misinterpretation? Balloons? A domestic US secret project recovered?
===> Submit Jesse Marcel Military Records to Doctor Rudiak. And he will answer.
David Rudiak is psi-reading in Military Records like other read in coffea, astral configuration or in cards.
Strange method. Wait... That's ufology!
Regards,
Gilles
Marcel's military record proves 3 things:
1. That the USAF decided the Roswell affair was a non-event.
2. That Marcel's superiors decided likewise.
3. That Marcel had identified the crashed debris for what it was (to approx. 90% certainty).
And that is about all we can conclude about this very brief and wholly unimportant interlude in Marcel's exemplary military career.
What say you, Kevin? Have you any other conclusion to draw from Marcel's records?
All,
I did NOT say that Marcel's subsequent service evaluations proved there was a flying saucer crash.
What I DID say is that they disproved all the other charges that have been levied against Marcel in the past by those wanting to debunk Roswell, namely he was a screw-up who somehow misidentified simple, fragile balloon material as coming from something like the reported supersonic saucers, or that he broke security or other protocols in the course of the investigation, such as taking the debris home to show his family or somehow putting out the flying disc press release over Blanchard's head, or that he was blamed for the initial press release.
And those like CDA who claim nothing of significance happened or that Marcel identified the debris with near-certainty as coming from something mundane like a balloon must also somehow explain the base press release that they had recovered a flying disc and were flying it in a B29 to "higher headquarters" and that there was a "security lid" on the whole affair.
If it was a "balloon", then why call it a "flying disc?" Why the security? Why the B29 flight for further examination? Why the flight to Wright Field for further examination? This must have been the most mysterious "balloon" in all history!
The debunkers as usual want it both ways. It was nothing and Marcel did nothing wrong (therefore the subsequent arc of Marcel's career showing high regard by superior officers), but at the same time there is that damn press release about the flying disc, the security, having to have higher headquarters look at it, etc., etc.
And this wasn't some minor regional affair. It was national and international news, the Pentagon was flooded with phone calls, high officers like Gen'l.s Vandenberg and Ramey had to interrupt their days to handle it. In other words, a monumental screw-up in public relations if all they found was a balloon.
So where was the subsequent investigation to see who was responsible for that embarrassing press release? Who's head rolled? From what we know, nobody's. Not Marcel, not Blanchard, not Haut, not Ramey--nobody. The Air Force is internationally embarrassed but nobody in the chain of command pays a price. That makes no sense.
So it was simultaneously a huge story and terrific embarrassment, but also "nothing" and nobody made any mistakes. Please explain how that works in the real world.
Tim Herbert wrote:
It's obvious from Marcel's Officer Evaluation Report that he was a solid performer for that particular reporting period and warranted promotion to LtCol.
Therefore, no evidence of Marcel screwing up in any way during this period, right? But if Roswell was nothing but a balloon, then we still have to explain why the first press release (presumably based on Marcel's and Cavitt's findings in the field) that it was a "flying disc", followed by the quick retraction by Gen. Ramey starting only an hour later that it was a weather device.
So how can there be such an obvious "screw-up" with that press release, yet nothing shows up subsequently in the service record of Marcel or anybody else deeply involved like Col. Blanchard? That's the dilemma.
How one can infer that based on his ratings and rater's comments that this is proof that Marcel was subtly being singled out for "his handling of a flying saucer crash" is simply and extremely far stretched.
Never said that. I said if he had screwed up, then why his promotion to Lt. Col., the upping in his rating, the subsequent comments by superior officers like Dubose, Ryan, Ramey about Marcel being command officer material and his career being "outstanding", subsequent transfers to higher intelligence work, etc.?
Again, this gets back to the embarrassing, internationally reported flying disc press release quickly retracted to "weather balloon." Marcel would have had to be part of such a huge screw-up, but his service record indicates no screw-ups. How does one reconcile such mutually exclusive positions?
Recommendation for "Air Command and Staff School" would have been typed in the rater's comments/recommendation block for other officer's as well, that is if the rater thought the individual so deserving of such. And such a recommendation did not guarantee that the individual would have been assigned a future slot in any Service School. That would have been decided by others in the command chain.
I fail to see the point. In that evaluation, primarily by Blanchard, Col. Dubose, also deeply involved, independently recommended Air Command school for Marcel. (This was in addition to Dubose's earlier recommendation for Marcel's promotion in the Reserve.) This was soon followed by Ramey also commenting that he thought Marcel command officer material.
Whether or not Marcel would be sent to such a school or become a command officer is beside the point. Two superior officer who knew what really happened at Roswell thought him command stock. Again, they wouldn't be making such comments or recommendations if Marcel had somehow screwed up Roswell. (Which gets back to that flying disc base release that everybody is dancing around.)
Dr. Rudiak,
You made it a point as far as inferring about his OER. You further made reference about his recommendations concerning Air Command and Staff School. Your right...it has no logical connection to Roswell's supposed UFO crash, yet you made it a point. I simply stated that such verbage makes no connections, yet you attempted to connect dots that are not there.
I've written quiet a few OERs in my time as an AF officer and such verbage was customary to show the potential endorsee the worthiness of the individual that I was rating.
All -
Marcel's service record, which included his OERs, only suggest that he was thought of as a valued member of the military, that he was qualified for promotion, and that he be trained for areas of greater responsibility.
It would seem, that had he identified a balloon as some kind of other craft, that while the OER would not mention that specifically, it would suggest that he was in need of additional training prior to promotion... that he was not qualified at that time.
We have virtually all of his record... but what is not understood is that some things simply would not be there. He made the claim that he had been shot down once and there is nothing to prove this in his record. Unless he had been recommended for some sort of an award, had been captured, had been injured, then there wouldn't be a reference to that.
He said that he served as an aide to General Arnold but there is nothing in the record to support that. Had he been assigned there as a temporary duty while awaiting a school assignment (which is the case) then there might not be anything in his record to reflect that. I was assigned as a general's aide when his usual aide was on leave but there is nothing in my record to substantiate that.
The conclusion to be drawn here, I believe, is that there was nothing in the record or on his OERs to suggest that he had screwed up as badly as identifying a balloon as something more substantial. While the OERs do not prove it was alien, they do suggest that claiming such had no impact on his career.
Tim Herbert wrote:
You made it a point as far as inferring about his OER. You further made reference about his recommendations concerning Air Command and Staff School. Your right...it has no logical connection to Roswell's supposed UFO crash, yet you made it a point. I simply stated that such verbage makes no connections, yet you attempted to connect dots that are not there.
I totally disagree. You are still ignoring the historical fact that Col. Blanchard issued a very public and sensational press release that they had recovered an actual flying saucer, with Marcel being the primary investigating officer. Presumably this was Marcel's conclusion as well (as he also expressed 30 years later). Then within an hour it was quickly retracted by Gen. Ramey as being a totally nothing weather balloon.
How embarrassing! What a public relations catastrophe! These are the senior officers charged with delivering the A-bomb yet they don't seem to have the common sense of a 5-year old.
So how do you explain this unless Marcel and/or Blanchard were total idiots? How would any halfway sane and experienced Air Force person think a balsa wood/foil kite and rotting weather balloon would come from the reported high speed saucers? There is a complete logical disconnect here.
Yet there is nothing in anybody's record responsible that indicates they were fools, idiots, screw-ups, etc. You don't recommend people like Marcel for promotion and command training, recommission him, call him "outstanding" and protest him being transferred with nobody to replace him (Ramey) if you are dealing with somebody who would have had to have screwed up that badly. How else would that press release have been written if that is really all they found? (Same arguments would apply to Blanchard as well.)
So, yes, the fact that Marcel's subsequent record shows no evidence of him being a screw-up, quite the contrary, DOES have a direct bearing on what happened at Roswell a short time before.
I've written quiet a few OERs in my time as an AF officer and such verbage was customary to show the potential endorsee the worthiness of the individual that I was rating.
But if Marcel couldn't ID a weather balloon and publicly embarrassed the Air Force and his commanding officers, including Blanchard, where was the "worthiness"? Wouldn't you want to dump the guy?
Doesn't this force us to conclude there were no screw-ups on Marcel's part?
Which again begs the question, where did the flying disc press release come from if Marcel didn't screw up?
DR writes:
"Doesn't this force us to conclude there were no screw-ups on Marcel's part?
Which again begs the question, where did the flying disc press release come from if Marcel didn't screw up?"
Answer to part 1 is: Yes, there were no screw-ups on Marcel's part.
Answer to part 2: The silly press release came from Haut, who had not seen the object. It was approved by Blanchard (we assume), who immediately went on leave.
The only logical conclusion is that the base wanted some publicity and 'rushed to judgment' without due consideration. This explains the mild rebuke they got from Washington. At least that is my interpretation. DR will differ, as will other ET proponents.
There was a mild 'screw-up' but certainly not by Marcel. He never once thought it was ET at the time. There is not one iota of contemporary evidence suggesting that he did.
You cannot pretend that the discovery of an ET craft in the desert was omitted from Marcel's, or anyone else's, military records on the grounds of secrecy or national security, if it actually happened. It would be like Neil Armstrong's NASA personnel file having no mention that he was the first man to step on the moon. (And had the Apollo crew found ETs on the moon, are we to believe this too would have been expunged from all their records?!)
Come on - let's see the Blanchard, duBose, Ramey, Cavitt, Rickett, Easley records (if they exist). I guarantee that none of them has the slightest mention of the recovery of an ET craft from the NM desert. Not one word. It was indeed a 'non-event'.
David wrote : "How embarrassing! What a public relations catastrophe!"
There was no catastrophe if you are abble to keep out your obsession it was not a SpaceCraft just 2 seconds.
Roswell is a "recent story in the news" in 1947 as I think you say in English for "fait divers" in French.
The evidence of this is that the "day after", it was forgotten. You used "catastrophe", but wait: I see no "scandal", no debate, no interrogations, no media counter-investigations, no doubt, no curiosity or dunno what in the press news time-line. Do you?
No "catastrophe" ;)
It is normal that an anecdote of 24/48 hours have no impact for Jesse Marcel end of carreer and evaluation. He did "his job"!
Another crucial point (imho) is that we ignore all of what motivated REALLY the Press Release. Do you? Only speculations. I will give mine if you allow me 2 minutes :
For my part, I think it is possible Haut and the 509th base were very closed the Roswell Town Medias.
Joyce in a interview (National Geographic TV Show by my memories, I have not the exact link at work) said something like that "Haut have a sort of debt to me (to give a local scoop ie.).
Context: It was the start of the 1947 Flying Saucer mass-delusion. I think then it is very possible that Haut "done a favor" to the local medias, to be short. Dunno if you see what I have in mind.
In 509th base, they were imho ALREADY no doubt about the prosaïc nature of the material.
The release overpassed the local news, but for 24/48 hours only, until Ramey Press conference.
End of the "recent news in the news". Until 1978.
Regards,
Gilles
Joyce in an interview (National Geographic TV show by my memories....said something like that.."
We're supposed to trust your memory; in any case Joyce isn't reliable.. I don't believe the words he put into Brazel's mouth. It wouldn't be surprising if he made something else up.
"Haut have a sort of debt to me..."
So you think Haut wrote the press release on his own initiative, to repay a "debt"? He was ORDERED to write it by his superior, Blanchard.
Starman:
Tell me: if Blanchard knew the object was an ET craft, or even if he only suspected it was, do you really suppose he would immediately have taken a two-week leave? The idea is laughable.
Gilles has got it about right. The press release was premature and provided some short-lived publicity for the base and the town.
You are not supposed to trust my memories... but you can visionate the TV Show by yourself.
Sorry, I have only find the National Geographic TV show available in the net with French voice off, translating Joyce's words, at this stage.
Here at 2'35'' : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uOLiZkMrL0
If anyone have an English version, I'm curious to verify if the French tranlation of Joyce's words is correct or not.
I dont "trust" in the exact meaning of the word "to trust" Joyce (if corrected translated), as any other protagonists, when interviewed so many years after a 24/48 hours event in a long life.
I'm only interrested on what could motivated and could explain the Press Release, for this point.
Such words gived by Joyce (if corrected translated in French, I cant heard precisaly what he said in English) sounded interresting on that point or attempt, with the normal caution of course when people are remembering old details.
Regards,
Gilles
Starman,
I dont say Haut acted by his own initiative, or not ; I suppose Blanchard knew and authorized the Press Release, probably.
I'm trying to contextualize the Press Release regarding the local links between the 509th and the local medias (of the town).
I think the Press Release must be examined, considerated and taked for what it was and then "like-this" contextualized: There were "good" relationships between the base and the Roswell local medias, the first one alimenting time to time the local medias, concerning current things, common news, etc.
It is the "same" concerning this story: it provided probably a good local publicity for the base, for a thing "on the air" - Flying Saucers "hysteria" - and must be viewed in the same usual relationships between the 509th and the local medias. Never Blanchard though or suspected imho it was an ET craft: some hand-made debris, probably particular balloons of one sort.
A Press release was "accepted" and delivered to the town medias in this usual ambiance and usual relationships.
It was a little prematured, too much rushed : the thing overpassed this local reason, purpose and motivation (local "publicity" to summerize).
You know the following time-line.
Regards,
Gilles
"Never Blanchard though or suspected imho it was an ET craft: some hand-made debris, probably particular balloons of one sort."
Evidently he thought it was something highly unusual; "hand made debris" hardly merits a press release about a "disc." The base personnel would've been severely reprimanded (or worse) had they issued a press release causing such a ruckus just for "good local publicity." I recall Lance suggested the press release was a joke. Same would've applied in that case, I presume....
I don't know why Blanchard went on leave, maybe because higher authority had taken over the handling of the case, or to help kill it publicly, since the base commander was no longer available.
Sorry, my PC is freezing, 2 times the same post, I erased.
Starman wrote: "The base personnel would've been severely reprimanded (or worse) had they issued a press release causing such a ruckus just for "good local publicity."
Well, if we follow the story-line, we should suppose they received some sort of "words of reproach" by Washington (a minimal rebuking). Christopher already pointed it in the previous comments.
So, do you think that the 509th high base personnel must be disolved or hardly reprimanded for a local publicity "blunder", surfing on the Flying Discs and Saucers recent "mass-delusion"? I dont think so for my part. Matter of opinion.
Regards,
Gilles
All -
We have drifted away from the point of the post, which was the idea that Marcel violated regulations because he didn't follow aircraft accident procedure.
Now to the other points... Blanchard's leave makes no military sense. Here I mean who begins a leave on Tuesday afternoon. As commander, his leaves would have had to be planned with a little more care than that of lower-ranking officers and enlisted men. Given this was a three-day weekend, and believing that he would have to plan it out, it makes more sense for him to begin at the end of the day on Thursday and have someone sign him out on Monday... he gets three extra days. The exception would be an emergency leave but there is no evidence that this is the case. In the context of those days in July, Blanchard's leave makes no sense.
Second, I do not understand why we must rehash Haut's press release. He was quite clear on that point. He issued it on orders of the base commander, Blanchard. He did not issue on his own. He was ordered to do so.
Although newspaper accounts of the time say that they had been reprimanded for issuing the release, no one I interviewed ever said anything about it. Embarrassed, maybe, given the answer of weather balloon in Fort Worth, but no one there in 1947 remembers a reprimand. As Walter Haut said to me, "If I got a call from Wahington about this, don't you think I would remember?"
And Gilles, it wasn't a "local blunder," but world wide news, for a short time. Of course Washington would have been annoyed by it, making their atomic bomb group look incompetent.
Kevin:
Yes, it would make much more sense if Blanchard had chosen to go on leave on the Thursday, before July 4.
But once the disc had been found and brought back, is it conceivable that he would have gone on leave, even for one day, had his staff recovered the remains of a real ET craft and bodies from the NM desert?
What I am saying is that Blanchard's leave shows that the event had no significance at the time.
Marcel was certainly no fool. He had, with near certainty, identified the object. Therefore it was Haut's premature press release that caused the furore. Don't forget that by the time you spoke to Haut, he was very likely an ET convert.
cda, Gilles, etc.
You are again skirting around the question of why the press release about having a real "flying disc".
CDA says Marcel did nothing wrong (hence nothing bad about him in his subsequent performance reviews). But Marcel was the main investigating officer along with Cavitt. Both would have reported directly back to Blanchard (who ordered them out there to begin with) about their findings plus bringing debris back from the field. So if Marcel or Cavitt say nothing about a "flying disc" and the debris is just balsa wood, aluminum foil, and rubber balloon material, where in the world would Blanchard get the idea that this was from a "flying disc"?
Blanchard was not exactly some dufus Colonel. He went on to become four-star General, USAF Vice Chief of Staff, and probably would have been the Chief of Staff if a heart attack hadn't cut him down.
So if for unimaginable reasons, Blanchard had a balloon on his hands, his men tell him he had a balloon on his hands, the debris says balloon, and he puts out a press release that they have recovered one of those sensational "flying discs" all over the news, how do you account for Blanchard's subsequent career arc? It's the same problem we have with Marcel. Their records don't square with officers guilty of a colossal screw-up that embarrassed the Air Force right up to the Pentagon. Remember, this was front page national and international news at the time.
So this leaves Haut. First of all where exactly would Haut get the information to begin with? Haut was Blanchard's public mouthpiece. But if Blanchard had no reason to suspect a "flying disc", where would Haut get the story? Why would it morph into a "flying disc" story if Blanchard was the source?
Haut would have had to completely break all protocol to make up a "flying disc" story on his own and put it out without Blanchard or his office clearing it first. I asked Haut very specifically about this. Did any story of any import go out without it being cleared from the top first? The answer was no. Haut could put out non-important stuff on his own, such as base baseball games or dances, but nothing like that Roswell press release.
Although Associated Press blamed Haut for the press release (while United Press said it was Blancard's), their is no real evidence and no rational reason why Haut on his own would have been responsible. If he had been, I doubt even his good friend Blanchard could have protected him from the wrath of high officers like Ramey and Vandenberg who had to deal with the mess.
Haut stayed at Roswell for another year (still the PIO) and then left the service to stay in Roswell and raise his family rather than follow Blanchard as he headed upward in his career.
So we are still left with the question of how the flying disc press release could possibly have arisen if all they found were balloon remains.
Doctor Rudiak,
You wrote: "So we are still left with the question of how the flying disc press release could possibly have arisen if all they found were balloon remains."
It and you remember me one of the last scene of the Luc Besson "Joan of Arc" movie (The Messenger, I think is the title in English). In this scene, Joan (played by Milla Jovovich) pretends that the sword she found "in the grass" surely for Her was fallen from the sky, then a "gift" from God.
The "Conscious" (played by Dustin Hoffman) gived her a long "skeptic" monologue and presented several other "prosaic" possibilities.
Analogicaly, you BELIEVE that if there was the so famous Press Release, our protagonists of course and absolutly though it was not ordinary materials (then an Alien Spacecraft!). It can not be a release if it was "Balloon and Radar targets" material, you BELIEVE. And then, logicaly (for you and your belief) you are closing the door(s) to the so many other possibilities (already presented by skeptics).
It is often my movie scene coming in mind when I read several your unidirectionnal and biased scenario regarding this "mythical" UFO case.
Regards,
Gilles
One can argue that Haut (as the base PIO) had to get something out officially. He had to because Brazel and the local police already knew about the find on the ranch and would have publicised it anyway.
What is strange is the description given - called purely a 'disc' when it was in fact tinfoil, sticks and rubber fabric. Why was it called a 'disc'?
Haut had not seen the stuff. Possibly even Blanchard had not. Haut obviously got his facts from Marcel and rushed to get his release out. It was good publicity for the base, but it backfired. And then Blanchard went on leave.
We can speculate forever on all this. There will never be a final answer about the hows and whys of Haut's release.
Yes, the AF guys had identified the stuff with reasonable certainty, but so what? Let it go out to the public that the AF boys have finally got their hands on something that was reported as a 'flying disc', as of course it was, by Brazel.
Great story, but alas very short-lived.
CDA -
Actually you can argue that there was no imperative to put out anything. It doesn't matter what Brazel had or the Sheriff knew. They didn't have to get anything out at all. Haut would not have initiated this on his own. He said repeatedly that Blanchard told him to do it, either gave him the facts or dictated the release.
Marcel wouldn't have told Haut anything and there was no reason for him to consult with Haut. This was a military organization and not a civilian company. It just doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.
And the military wouldn't have cared less about what the Brazel said or the sheriff said had it been a weather balloon... No, your analysis doesn't work.
Kevin wrote : "This was a military organization and not a civilian company." or "Haut would not have initiated this on his own."
Your argument (in short) is that no one could act on his own, there is a military strict field and frame, Guys! There were not civilians, you know...
I have the impression it is only when you want and when it arranges your thesis (the pro-ETH one). Why? Let's me shortly figure:
Wait and remember, Marcel bring the stuffes at his family Home.
If they were so "sensible" material, so extraordinary, then a matter of NATIONAL Security or National interrest. Do you find it "serious","normal" "proceeding and following stricly a military regulations field or frame" to take this at Family Home?
Therefore, someme complain about no reprimands (or worse) IF one or other made a "blunder" regarding a Press Release for only Balloons, for base publicity, to respond to a media local debt, acted on his own, or dunno what other "prosaic" hypothesis presented ;
But Marcel taked the so sensible stuffes at his family Home and no reprimand, or worse...
In Essence, Marcel at home with the stuffes DEMONSTRATE there were a relative "freedom to act on his own", "out regulations". As possibly the stuff were already not so sensible for Marcel.
You can have something "acting on his own" and accept it for the episode when Marcel is at family home, overpassing military strict frame and field then, but you refuse for the release.
Double-standard? "Cherry-picking"? Seriously Kevin, come one.
Regards,
Gilles
Valid point, Gilles.
The taking home of the debris, to show to his wife and son (!), completely destroys the idea that this stuff was ever top secret or in fact classified in any way.
But don't expect Kevin or DR to accept this. They have an answer for everything, even the unanswerable.
And if we stretch a point, part of the debris found on the San Augustin plains was included in the stuff Marcel took home. But this was far too secret to be mentioned in Haut's press release. As we say, you have to 'read between the lines'.
Virtually all of the argument for Roswell has to run against the actual existing contemporaneous evidence.
Most of that proffered by the believers is of the sort: "This person would act in this way because I say so."
Not a very scientific position.
Add into this mix the obsessive nutty conspiracy thinking of certain (often verbose) buffs and you have a silly concoction that not even the believers can lay out with any sort of internal consistency.
Lance
Gilles -
Sorry... Apples and Oranges. Marcel stopped at home to talk to his wife and son... Haut issued a press release ordered by the base commander, Colonel Blanchard. He did not issue it on his own authority.
Haut's "error" was public; Marcel's was private. The records show that neither man suffered because of his actions. There is a real difference here and I am not surprised that you don't see it.
CDA -
You agree with Gilles? Why, I'm stunned. That fact that Marcel stopped at his house does not destroy the idea that it was classified... and, BTW, Mogul was highly classified too. And now we move to bring in the Plains of San Agustin (please note correct spelling) which is not a part of this discussion or part of the Roswell case.
Lance -
You have to chime in with your flawed opinion. There are times when we can say a person would act a specific way... when regulations dictate it, for example. Haut issued the press release because he was told to and not because he "had" to get something out because civilians knew about the debris.
And, I might remind you all that the original discussion was that Marcel had violated regulations because he didn't treat this as an aircraft accident...
And Kevin, I think that kind of argument is flawed on both sides. You won't hear me using it.
On the other hand, a suggestion that something might have happened is just that: a suggestion. And when such a suggestion is reasonable and supports a prosaic solution, it should have a higher rank that the one that suggests OMG ALIENS!
I suspect that it bothers you that you have have had to throw your lot in with the dubious members (excluding Chris Rutowski) of your "dream team" at least one of whom you, yourself have denounced.
I guess we work with what we have.
Lance
We are still left with the conundrum of how the "mistake" of the "flying disc" press release happened yet nothing shows up in Marcel's and Blanchard's subsequent records to remotely suggest a mistake was made. Haut put out the release under Blanchard's orders and the information could only have come from Blanchard himself or his office. Nothing suggests that Haut could have or would have put out the release on his own (even though AP news stories made him the scapegoat).
There is also the conundrum of why Marcel would wake up his family to show them the mundane, boring stuff that Ramey ultimately displayed for photos, namely a smelly weather balloon and ordinary aluminum foil and balsa wood. Logic would dictate that Marcel's behavior is only consistent with him thinking the material was extraordinary, which is backed up by his son Marcel Jr., who said his father thought he had the pieces of real flying saucer. Marcel Jr., by all accounts a precocious kid (later an M.D.), thought it highly unusual stuff as well. Balsa wood wouldn't have been foreign to him, just as it wouldn't have been to me in the 1950s, since it was common-place material in kid's kites and model airplanes. Same with aluminum foil, a common consumer product for 20-30 years by that time.
So if it was balloon material, then we are back to the skeptic's "drooling idiot" theory for Marcel, plus Marcel Jr. and Blanchard. But their subsequent career records show they were anything but drooling idiots, as I have discussed ad nauseum before. There is no indication anywhere that they screwed up anything.
As for whether Marcel broke regulations showing his family the debris, we can go round and round forever on that one. If all he found was mundane balloon material, then there would be no reason to necessarily think it was classified in any way (but also no reason to wake up his family to show them). And if Marcel thought it was alien material from a flying saucer that didn't match anything that could be made on earth (a good reason to wake up his family), then technically there were no regulations on the books about how to handle that. Marcel probably would know it would become classified soon, but it wasn't classified yet. He could bend the rules and show his family before it was officially classified, admonishing them not to talk about it, thus keep it private and within the family.
Marcel saying he finished his lunch before going to see Brazel and the Sheriff, therefore no sense of urgency, seems like a typical skeptical nitpick. Marcel said he found the Sheriff's report intriguing (he was "all ears"), but he could have been two minutes from finishing his lunch, he didn't know the full story yet, and it would be many hours before he could do a preliminary investigation and get out to the crash site. A few minutes one or or the other wasn't going to matter.
As for Kevin's statement in his blog that Marcel wasn't treating it as an aircraft accident from the start, I would have to disagree based on what Marcel said in one interview, that he discussed what Brazel found with Blanchard and both agreed that it seemed to be from an unusual aircraft of some kind. (Why would they think that unless Brazel described something very out of the ordinary or they had seen unusual debris samples? Rubber, balsa, and aluminum foil wouldn't do it.) That is why Blanchard ordered Marcel to investigate and to take Cavitt with him to assist--the two top intelligence officers at the base. Blanchard didn't order Marcel to send some corporals in his stead to pick up what was left of Brazel's "balloon" debris.
Whatever happened had to have been highly out of the ordinary to explain Blanchard's actions in ordering the initial investigation and in ordering Haut to put out the flying disc press release. Drooling idiots don't usually make it to four-star general status.
There is some evidence (in particular, Newton) that Marcel was fooled by the unusual tape markings into thinking that he had found something out of the ordinary.
That is not to say he necessarily thought OMG ALIENS!
It is possible that Marcel thought that the slightly unusual debris could be a down to earth explanation for the sightings that were the talk of the nation.
In one sense, he was right. The MOGUL balloons WERE the likely cause of at least some of the sightings reported in the press.
It is possible that the unusual tape markings (and lack of other identifying marks) suggested to him (and later Blanchard) that they had found the source of the UFO sightings in the news.
And thus the not-very-well-thought-out press release, etc.
We do have evidence that other folks finding balloon debris came to a similar conclusion (Circleville, OH, for instance).
It seems to me that this explanation is consistent with the evidence and can only be dismissed by insisting that human behavior can ONLY happen as the conspiracy theorists and nuts will it to happen.
Lance
I agree and share "Lance Moody's approach".
It is possible (it is what I defended in my own 2010 book, more or less) that what it was found in Brazel Ranch suggested to the FEW 509th protagonists, they have found and they have solved the source of the so-called flying Discs or Saucers, "Mass-delusion", the thing in the news.
But not "THEREFORE ALIEN" to paraphrase Giorgio A. Tsoukalos "jokes" in the net.
So and then, the famous Press Release, explained by the local special conditions (links between the local medias and the 509th - Haut in particular - to be short).
Circleville is an excellent example (even if Doctor Rudiak will say it is part of the debunking F.S. campaign) !
Roswell imho is an epiphenomenom (and an non-event) of the 1947 Flying Saucers mass-delusion! Until 1978.
Regards,
Gilles
Post a Comment