More Information and Discussion about Mogul

 

Here’s a bit of irony. For some reason, I am unable to post comments on my blog. There is a glitch somewhere which I have failed to find. So, to respond to the various comments, I have chosen to post them here with either some or all the other comments. Mine will be in this font and color.

 

David Rudiak in his comment had a bit of a quibble with my statements about the staged launch in Alamogordo on July 10. My response is, “But my point was that the equipment being photographed was part of the gear from the NYU balloon project. Charles Moore told me that the ladder in the picture was one that he had bought. Didn't really say it was like a Mogul launch and was aware that there were rawins in the photographs. Only that the experiments in Alamogordo were not secret as proven by the press conference held on July 10.”

 

Gilles, in one of his many posts in the last couple of days, wrote:

You [meaning me] wrote:"But the balloon in the photos is not strips nor flakes. The photo balloon is again seemingly intact and appears pliable with pleats in it.
It isn't a balloon that was left exposed in the hot desert sun for a month."

Given that I have been at this for more than 30 years, I have no memory of such a quote, which is to say, it is something that I might have said decades ago but probably not. If I had more specific information so that I could review the context, we might understand this and if I actually said it.

In Sunlite 4-4, "we" already counter-argumented such false-claims (as in other our experiments): https://www.astronomyufo.com/UFO/SUNlite4_4.pdf

I think I understand this, which is a counter to the idea that the balloon envelop was not as degraded as it should have been after a month on the ground or was more degraded than it should have been if it had only laid out there for a couple of days. I will note that the rawin target seemed to have been shredded more than would be expected given its construction but I’m not sure that I was ever a part of such discussions. Clearly, what was photographed in Ramey’s office was a single balloon and a single rawin.

Now, I have a CRUCIAL question to You (I mean a "chess and mat"'s one). Just wondering your answer at my turn.

In Albert Crary's diary we have this line:

"Flew regular sono buoy in cluster of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on plane."

If Albert Crary "had good luck on receiver on ground", what it means for you for the cluster of balloons embarking a sunobuoy, June, the 4th?
Canceled or have flow?

Chess and Mat.

The cluster of balloons was not a Mogul array and was launched later in the day on June 4. Charles Moore, however, as I have noted, eventually told us, without a shred of documentation, that Flight #4, a full array, constructed like that launched the next day, Flight #5, was sent up around three in the morning, in violation of the rules under which they were operating. That was not a cluster of balloons, which is something different. Two claimed separate events.

Greetings Kevin,

Sorry to have been rude: I only wanted to point you were NOT saying or presenting all to your readers (Dubose different antagonist/mutualy exclusive claims for example).

See below…

"So, I ask you, what time was Flight #4 launched"…

The answer is quite simple if you ask me and allow me to reply: Flight #5 was launched June, the 5th. Flight#4, the day before. Flight #6, June, the 7th.
Each ones during "Alamogordo II expedition".

Also (in order to PROOVE launches before fight #5 in Alamogordo):

May 28 Wed. « B-17 in from Watson with Mears, Hackman, NYU and Alden. They [Mears, Hackman, NYU and Alden] plan to flight test ballon tomorrow. [Moore is not YET at Almogordo]
May 29 thurs. « Mears and Hackman got balloon ascension off about 1 pm today with B-17 plan to follow it. »
You then have a launch here!

Moore arrived at Almogordo June the First (and was not present for the previous one) ===> June 1 sun. « […] arrived at Alamogordo about 0930. […] C47 with Moore, Schneider and others from NYU. Also Ireland, Minton, Olsen. NYU men worked on balloon in north Hanger.

June the 4th : Flew regular sono buoy in cluster of balloons and had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on plane. Out with Thompson pm. Shoot charges from 1800 to 2400. 

Didn’t asked for the dates, asked for the times of the launch on June 4. Charles Moore has provided more than one. So, what TIME was Flight #4 launched?

FLEW is probably a word a little French can't understand? Or???? We have at least TWO launches here, whatever you may write.

According to Moore, yes, there were two launches, one a full array and one that was a cluster of balloons that carried a sonobuoy up… and given the circumstances, probably never left the confines of the Alamogordo and White Sands test ranches.

You well know Flight #5 was retrieved near Roswell by the entry "B-17 and personnel out to Roswell. Recovered equipment some 25 mi east of Roswell." So, it makes perfect sens the remains of the fligh of the day befaore in the vincinity too...

Please, not you as invoking special MAGIC the Gathering cards "Roswell's game" , Rudiak, Sparks or Moore calculations. It such calculations, a simple data missing is like a butterfly effect, and we have not the all at the time to enter in a "computer".

Hadn’t planned on it, but we seem to have several individuals calculating the flight path of Flight #4 based on the winds aloft data and the shifting times supplied by Charles Moore. You might not like it, but the preponderance of the evidence seems to suggest that the flight would not have gotten to within 17 miles of the Brazel ranch as Moore claimed. I’ll note that 17 miles is a long way from the actual debris field.

And I notice that you again warn against using evidence that conflicts with your personal and often inaccurate beliefs.

"what was happening in Alamogordo was NOT classified."

Don’t know how to make it clearer. Even Charles Moore said that the experiment there were not classified. Publishing the information in the newspaper proves that those experiments were not classified. Ultimate purpose was classified, but not the experiments in Alamogordo.

What can I reply for such a false claim? If we follow you, Mogul was not top secret, the NYU team was not in Almogordo in charge of this project in the time and space of the Roswell event. Alamogordo was not a field for secret projects.

You do not follow me. The ultimate purpose of Mogul, to spy on the Soviets was highly classified. What the NYU team was doing in NM was not. I fail understand why you are incapable of grasping this simple concept.

Imho, NYU team was in hollidays at Alamogordo and launched ballons for festivities or bithdays of the crew's members here.... Seriously!

Your opinion on this is nonsense, again revealing that you do not understand the situation in 1947.

Gilles

Greetings Kevin and all,

"According to the written record Mogul Flight No. 4 was cancelled. There is no equivocation about it."
I will not more comment, cause after & in your own post you conceeded Flight "4" have flown. Therefore, it was a flight #4. That's a point I wanted you admit. Then "there is no equivocation" is wrong^^

Nope. Did not concede that Flight #4 flew. Said they launched a cluster of balloons later in the day, but that was not a full array. Two separate events… one that was a full array, according to Moore, that was cancelled and one that flew because, as Moore told me, “You can’t put the helium back in the bottles.” This was the cluster of balloons.

"The documentation from the New York University balloon project shows that the first successful flight in New Mexico was Flight No. 5."

Not exactly the documentation shows, Kevin. But:

It [Flight #5] was the first flight with telemetry and full heavy load.

I meant by that, "succesfull" not means "have flown" nor there is no previous flight which have been launched and the strange logic you present to your readers.

You are splitting a fine hair here. The record shows that Flight #5 was the first successful flight and does mention carrying a full load. But Moore said that Flight #4 was just like Flight #5, which means it too, was set up with the heavy equipment. It is you who seem incapable of grasping the finer points here.

For your Roswell big case or for such a magnitude, you admit yourself that Mann reused the tape!

At the time, Mann believed that the more important story was the Pascagoula abduction. That was his opinion, which he later conceded was wrong. But he was filming in the early 1980s before the Roswell story had gained traction. Your analysis here is wrong, but I’m not surprised by that.

 "If that statement is accurate, then the discussion and the investigation end right there".
So, there are statments who are accurate and others, not. And you are cherry-picking and choosing the ones you want?

Pot calling the kettle black. You do the same thing. You warn against using other evidence which does not agree with your opinion even when that testimony is relevant to the discussion.

Excepted "my" statment (of Marcel) is the first occuring of all. I choose the first dated claim cause several socio-psychological variables which can occure after more and more interview. You choose the second ones. Well, we have a different methodology!

Again, nice job of creating a situation that doesn’t exist. I normally, please note the qualification, try to present all the evidence and testimony to provide the readers with enough information to sort it out for themselves. Not sure to what you refer here, but again, note the qualification.

Concerning Dubose statments, you are ONE MORE TIME not saying the full true to your readers (sorry to be so rude) in order to maintain the Myth.
He said in the press conference that none piece was switched!

As You know at the first place ( as Roswell affair specialist) is that:

In "The Roswell Ufo Crash: What They Don’t Want You to Know", book by K. Pflock, there is the interview of Dubose made by Shandera. Shandera is presenting the Debris's pictures
Shandera: « two ufologists (Kevin Randle et Donald Schmitt) are claiming that the debris in Ramey office were switched and you have a weather- balloon".
Dubose : "Balivernes ! those pieces were never switched !"
Shandera pursues: "Then you are saying that the pieces in Ramey office really were the pieces coming from Roswell?"
Dubose : "It is absolutely right".
Shandera : "it is possible that Ramey or someone else have ordored the switch whithout informing you?"
Dubose: "I was here, and I was in responsabity/charge of such debris, they never have been switched".

Q.E.D.

Thank you for demonstrating your double standard here. You reject my statements about what Mann said to me, which is your right, but then quote from Jamie Shadera’s statements about what DuBose said to him without any tapes or notes. Shandera himself has said he didn’t tape the conversation. Not to mention that DuBose told others such as Kris Palmer and Don Ecker that the material was switched. And we do have DuBose’s statements on tape.

You didn’t bring up his affidavit in Pflock’s book, which said, “The material shown in the photographs in Gen. Ramey’s office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover to divert the attention of the press.”

So, who is being disingenuous here? You seem to have left some documentation and evidence out of your response.

Yourself wrote "other evidence, some of which had been taped." Mines had been taped too! And you well know it like a little French using not his native tong

You may well have tapes, but Shandera didn’t tape his interview with DuBose. If you know otherwise, please provide links.

"And, in addition, I hope this is my last word on this very narrow aspect of the Roswell case."
Hum, I again doubt of your statment: In general, one or two times by year, or a little less - I conceed -, you post a "anti-Mogull" offensive thread, as if you will obtain by it an Alien craft crashed in Roswell^^
I dont see why it will change!

So, information that disagrees with you is offensive… I find it offensive to reject evidence for the preconceived notion that there is no possibility for interstellar flight, therefore what fell at Roswell must be a balloon flight that was cancelled.

I had hoped that I wouldn’t have to dealt with information that it in error and false. But there is so much wrong out there that a couple times a year I feel the urge to correct some of it.

But remember, you started this because you objected to my note in a comment that Johnny Mann had interviewed Marcel who said the material in Ramey’s office was not the material he brought from Roswell. Take a look at the Internet, and you fine dozens of articles promoting the Mogul theory with not a comment about the alternative. In the public relations war, your side has won, as it did when claiming the Sun revolved around the Earth until Galileo looked through his telescope and the Coelacanth had not been found until another was pulled up years later, and dozens of other times when the experts claimed something but we later learned they had it wrong.

But note that I said this narrow aspect of the case and I’ll leave it at that.