A Mogul Response to Gilles and Bamm Bamm Bahama

(I will note that arguments made by these two people do not seem to address the evidence that removes Flight #4 from the story. We have documents to prove that Flight #4 never flew but this idea seems to have taken over. Too many sources have accepted that solution for Roswell without critical review. I have looked at some of this in the following. David Rudiak has posted comments to the original article, covering some of the same evidence. David proves links to his website and I suggest that those who wish a detailed explanation should look at Appendix C in Roswell in the 21st Century.)

Gilles –

I am getting tired of your insults. You are suggesting that I’m lying to my readers. You wrote, “As (usual now ?), you are not saying the true to your readers.”

I don’t know what other conclusion I can draw. I also realize that there is no evidence that I can cite suggesting that what was going on in New Mexico was unclassified that you will ever accept. I do not know what you mean by, “In Mogul (top secret 1A classified), only the obtained scientific dataes and how the devices are arranged were classified top secret 1A.”

But here’s the thing. You do not publish photographs of this alleged top-secret equipment on the front pages of newspapers. The Soviet spies wouldn’t have to do anything, other than buy a newspaper… and there were dozens of newspapers, on July 10, 1947, that published pictures of the New York University balloon project, which was the experiments to create a constant level balloon.

Can I tie this to those launches? Of course, there is a ladder in the center picture. Charles Moore told me that he had bought that ladder with petty cash. This proves the connection and negates the claim that what was happening in New Mexico was top secret. What you have failed to do is separate the ultimate goal of spying on the Soviets, which was top secret, from the experiments in New Mexico, which were unclassified.

The idea that the purpose was highly classified was the reason for the extraordinary efforts to recover every little scrap of the material scattered over two separate sites. If you have read Albert Crary’s diary notes, and the Technical Report 1 that you insist on citing, you see that in no other case were such measures were applied. They just didn’t care about the recovery and in one case noted that the terrain was too rough for recovery… or, in still another case Crary, with the remains of a balloon in the rear of his weapons carrier, actually stopped at Roswell Army Air Field to refuel… As an aside, Moore claimed that two weeks later, in a similar circumstance, he was turned away from the base and had to refuel elsewhere, which is another of his lies.

The point is that thee experiences, based on the documentation, not to mention some of my discussions with Moore, prove that what was happening in Alamogordo was NOT classified.

I don’t know how to make this more evident. Maybe by pointing out that there were no classification markings on any of the documentation, which there would have been if the reports and all had been classified. Once they were declassified, there would have a red pencil mark drawn through the classification, or they would have been redacted completely.

What nonsense are you now going to spout, with invented claims… remember, you cautioned that I don’t mention Linda Corley (yes, I have slightly changed gears here) making some absurd claim that Friedman had heard the tapes. Were you suggesting (a) that it was Friedman who originally recorded the tapes or (b) that after Corley loaned them to him that he altered them? Just what were you suggesting without a shred of evidence?

So, what the newspapers PROVE is that what was happening in Alamogordo was unclassified. The mere act of publishing those pictures, with military cooperation, prove the balloon project was unclassified.

I point out that you accept everything that suggests what fell was the remains of a balloon and reject everything else which doesn’t seem to be a proper skeptical attitude. So, I ask you, what time was Flight #4 launched… Charles Moore has provided two or three answers.

Just wondering.

 

The front page that shows the balloon launches proving that what was

happening in New Mexico was NOT highly classified.

Bamm Bamm Bahama

Although David Rudiak has covered some of the following points, I will expand on all that. First, let me say that I do like the form of your analysis. It is the sort of analysis I was taught to do when I studied for my masters in Intelligence. But there are a couple of flaws that render your conclusion badly flawed.

You begin with a few key points about the photographs in General Ramey’s office. I won’t go over those points because there is nothing wrong with what you wrote, though I might argue that the real debris had not been fully collected and moved by the time the photos were taken. I base this on the timeline and the suggestion that collecting the material would have taken longer. This is based on the testimony of several of those who collected the debris after Marcel returned to Roswell late on July 7.

You conclude that the pictures were taken for consumption rather for documentation. I would agree with this.

You then ask, ‘Why stage them?” And this is the first assumption made that is in error. I will split a fine hair here, and say again, that the purpose of Project Mogul was to spy on the Soviets, but the balloon flights in New Mexico were not highly classified. Charles Moore made a point of saying that the balloon flights were to develop a constant level balloon array. Such an array could have all sorts of scientific purposes other than spying on the Soviets. And, I’ll point out that the Japanese had developed a balloon borne weapon during the Second World War that suggested a military application. They used their constant level balloons to bomb the US. They launched some 9000 of them, and nearly 300 reached the US. Six people in Oregon were killed by one of those balloon bombs.

You suggest that photographs of the arrays would provide the Soviets with intelligence that would allow them to deduce acoustic detection methods and reveal radar reflector design. Except the rawin radar reflectors had been used since the end of the war and were used by weather stations all over the US. That seemed to negate one of your premises.

You write, “So yes—showing “nothing to see here, just a weather balloon” was textbook counter-intelligence. The goal wasn’t fooling Americans; it was not educating Soviet scientists who were absolutely reading U.S. newspapers.”

The problem here is that you do not account for the pictures published on July 10 in newspapers all around the country. It is the reason I posted the Alamogordo News article about the balloon arrays, including very specific pictures. Those pictures were also meant to fool the public but also revealed some of the intelligence you suggest they would want to conceal.

You suggest that had such a crash be alien, would we expect follow-up or reconnaissance craft?

Just for the sake of argument, had it been alien in nature, we have no real idea what they would do. What we would do in a similar circumstance is not necessarily what another sentient lifeform would do. We can guess but we cannot logically deduce anything about their reactions without some knowledge about them and their societies.

But I’m going to the biggest flaw in your analysis and that is the reliance on Mogul Flight #4. If it never flew, then that negates your analysis. Dr. Crary’s diary showed the flight was cancelled. Yes, there was a cluster of balloons flown later, but that was a cluster and not an array. The documentation available tells up how those clusters were made.

Your analysis does not allow for two crash sites. The Debris Field found by Mack Brazel is one. There are multiple witnesses to that site. Bill Brazel said there was a gouge down the center, indicating that something had hit and then bounced. Charles Moore said that if there was a gouge, then their balloon arrays would not account for that evidence.

The second site, closer to Roswell, was first discussed with us by Bill Rickett, the NCOIC of the CIC in Roswell. He did not see the Debris Field, but was taken to a site about 45 to 60 minutes from Roswell.

He is not the only witness to that second site. Brigadier General Arthur Exon told us about the two sites that he had flown over. If there were two sites, then a balloon array is eliminated.

I could to other flaws in your analysis such as the radar coverage in that are in July 1947 was spotty at best. Nothing was monitoring 24/7 and the closest of those radars were at White Sands.

So, where are we? Unfortunately, I must agree with your conclusion, or rather modify it. If we eliminate Mogul as a viable explanation, then we have no other terrestrial explanation for the debris. We can say that the only conclusion left is the extraterrestrial. To quote Sherlock Holmes, “"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

(Bottom Line: If there was no Flight #4, then there was no balloon to drop debris on the Brazel (Foster) ranch, and if there was no balloon debris, then what was found? If there was a gouge down the center of the debris as described by Bill Brazel and Judge Bud Payne, then, as Charles Moore said, it was not one of their balloons. If there were two sites, as mentioned by Bill Rickett and confirmed by General Arthur Exon, then Mogul is eliminated as the culprit. If the debris was as described, meaning the metal that could be folded and would unfold itself assuming its original shape, then Mogul is not the answer. I just mention these things that have been ignored in this discussion.)