'X' Zone Broadcast Network - Dr. Don Donderi

This week, I reached out to Dr. Don Donderi, who has just published a new book on UFOs. He said that it was a sort of primer for those who have become interested in UFOs but have no real knowledge of the subject. It is an introduction to the field and we talked about that for a while. You can, of course, listen to the show here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/49669598

And for those who are not easily frightened, or who would rather be watching our discussion than listening to it, you can see it here:

https://rumble.com/v13kind-a-different-perspective-with-kevin-randle-interviews-don-donderi.html?mref=yqkns&mc=7zk0c

Frankly, I hadn’t realized that Don had been around the field for so long. We did begin with a short discussion of the Roswell case. I, of course, thought it was a topic we should ignore because I’ve covered it on the program more than once. I think Don wanted to engage me in a discussion of the case, but I deflected to points that I thought were more important and would be more interesting to the audience.

I wanted to know when he thought UFOs appeared… meaning when did people begin to notice many things in the sky. That, of course, led to the Great Airship of 1897. I wondered if he had noticed that the airship sightings mirrored the modern era, meaning all the types of UFO sightings we have today were reported at that time. That meant the wave was somewhat predictive of the situation today. I don’t think he understood that the majority of the sightings in 1897 were faked. There were people who approached the crews of the airship and were told all sorts of things. One crew found in Texas said they were on their way to bomb the Spaniards in Cuba. This predictive nature, that came from the hoaxes, is somewhat worrisome to my way of thought, but Don didn’t seem to know much about these sightings other than he seemed to think the majority were legitimate.

The airship that landed in Waterloo, Iowa in 1897, eventually proven to be a hoax.

We did touch of the nature of evidence, or what would be sufficient for most people to accept the idea of alien spacecraft. He believed that there is more than enough including radar sightings which seem to impress him greatly, photographs such as that from McMinnville, Oregon, and, of course, the testimony of so many witnesses. He seemed to be much more receptive of these things that I am. I would like something that leads us to the alien rather than the interpretation of eyewitness testimony that might suggest the alien.

He did mention the cockpit videos that the Navy released (more or less). He thought their pronouncement that they are real meant they were alien. I believe the Navy was just telling us that the recording had been made by the Naval aviators and other sightings were made by Naval personnel. They weren’t saying they were of alien craft, just that the information, the reports, had been made by Naval personnel. Too many have jumped to that conclusion that the Navy confirmed the alien nature of the reports.

We talked about alien abduction and I pointed out that the logistics of the situation were prohibitive. I suggested that by some estimates, more than three million Americans have been abducted and we hadn’t even mentioned people from other countries who claim they were abducted. The numbers are just impossible, especially when you begin to talk about longitudinal studies covering, basically, decades.

He wondered where I had gotten that number, I suppose figuring I had pulled it out of my hip pocket. I mentioned the Roper Poll conducted in the end of the last century. He was quite dismissive of it because he has no idea what the numbers are, but does believe, as David Jacobs does, that the aliens are creating a race of hybrids to take over the planet.

Anyway, as I say, you can listen to all that and decide for yourselves what you think. Next week, I’m going to try something a little different as I fly solo. I’ll be discussing an aspect of the UFO field with visual cut-ins. I’m not sure how well this will work. And in the next weeks I’ll be talking with Philip Mantle and to Michael Shermer. 

X-Zone Broadcast Network - Bryan Sentes

In this Special Edition of A Different Perspective, I spoke with Bryan Sentes, who is known for his poetry, but who has a great grasp of the world of the UFO. It was a free-wheeling discussion that began with us talking about Project Blue Book on History and moving on to the Great Airship of 1897, to some of the modern topics. You can listen to it here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/17524869

Bryan Sentes

We did touch on one problem that has worried me for years and which Bryan had also thought about, which is that Airship stories mirror the modern ear of UFO sightings. All aspect of the various facets of Ufology show up in the Airship tales of 1897. These include cattle mutilations, crash retrievals, alien abduction and generic sightings of craft flying overhead, seen by dozens.

You can find his website here:

http://skunkworksblog.com

One sad thing, however. The by-play between us between segments was lost. We delved into some other topics including the best of Game of Thrones. He thought that early episodes, that were based on George R.R. Martin’s books were better than later episodes in which the show runners had to base the story on, well, what Martin had told them would happen… but, as they say, “I digress…”

This show was fun from the very beginning, and I plan to bring him back in the future.

Contrary to what I said early in the last segment, next week (April 10) I will be talking with Dr. Michael Masters, who, if the emails are any indication, should be as much fun. We’ll talk about his book, Identified Flying Objects and his time travel theory.

Jefferson Airship - 1897

To fully understand a case, it is necessary to return to the original source. I had the opportunity to do that just the other day. Andy McGinn of the Jefferson Herald, which had been the Jefferson Bee, called to ask about an entry in Crash: When UFOs Fall from the Sky. He was interested in an entry for April 15, 1897 which

Greene County Courthouse, Jefferson,
Iowa

discussed a crash near Jefferson.

Frankly, I didn’t remember it off the top of my head. It was a short entry and gave the bare bones of the story. I had written:

The Jefferson Bee reported that an airship had crashed in a farmer’s field on the north edge of town. Most of the town’s residents gathered around the huge, smoking hole. The next day, a man was lowered into the ole on a rope, along with a Volapak [sic, Volapuk] dictionary, which is the second time that this artificial language has been mentioned in connection with an airship crash. Once in the hole, the man claims he entered the airship that seemed neat and clean, despite the violent crash.

McGinn and I discussed the airship stories that had been circulating at the time. He said that he had pulled the newspaper for that date, April 15, 1897, and read to whole story. It was more detailed than what I had reported. He also mentioned that the last paragraph seemed to suggest the tale, which had been printed on the front page, was a hoax. I was interested in what that last paragraph said.

In the world today, there are lots of sources of information available that don’t require trips to libraries or newspaper morgues. I found, online, a short article about the crash in the Omaha Bee on April 17, 1897. It said:

JEFFERSON, Ia. April 16 – (Special Telegram) – A local paper this morning printed a lurid story concerning the airship which was alleged to have plunged into the earth north of town. Before noon a number of people had actually visited the place to see the hole.

That certainly didn’t clarify anything and added nothing to what I already knew. I did find an entry in Jerome Clark’s UFO Encyclopedia, Second Edition, but his information had been drawn from the Omaha newspaper, so he had even less information than I did about this crash.

What I really needed was to see the original article. McGinn was kind enough to send me a pdf. of the front page which carried the story. Rather than paraphrase it, and in keeping with the idea that the original source would be better than my interpretation of it, I thought I would provide the text.

FATE OF AN AIR SHIP

CAME TO GRIEF IN GREENE CO.

The Mystery of the Aerial Visitor Solved at Last.

Details of Accidents Important Discoveries

Up to the hour of going to press five air ships have been located by the enterprising citizens of Greene county. Air ships know a good thing when they see it, and so when wo heard of a flock of aerial pilgrims in Kansas, Nebraska, Omaha, Cedar Rapids, North wood, Evanston, St. Paul and Marshalltown, it became a settled conviction with us that it was only a question of time until they should be with us and taste the Joys of our Incomparable mud.

Two hundred nervous Jefferson people scanned the horizon Saturday night. They looked for an air ship. Along about 9:30 one came cavorting (sic) along the etherial (sic) domain like a wash tub on a mill pond. It was a giddy thing, evidently fresh from the shops, and after arriving within two or three miles of the earth, began cutting all sorts of pigeon wings, grapevines and doubledutch (sic) rolls. The sight was bewitching and cheer after cheer ascended as the airship executed some difficult selection.

Part of the time the great white light at the bow was visible and then the green light suddenly appeared and the ship would reverse itself. Then it evolved into a monstrous pin wheel, the green, red and white blending into a circular disc beautiful beyond compare, followed by an undulating, weaving motion as though flouting on a heavy swell.

Suddenly the great boat seemed to steady itself; the white light became fixed and gradually increased in size.

The Airship that landed in Waterloo, Iowa, 1897.

Somebody shouted, "the airship is headed for the earth," and sure enough.

Rapidly the great ball of purest white grew until it assumed the proportions of a full moon; then to the size of a wagon wheel and in the sky dim outlines of the great hull could be seen rushing downward at a rate of speed simply incalculable.

When within a thousand yards of the earth a distinct roar could be heard which Increased to the proportions of a cyclone us with ajar like an earthquake the mighty engine plunged into the earth.

The concussion was so terrific that houses trembled, children were thrown from their beds, dishes fell in showers from cupboards and hundreds of panes of glass were shattered.

Men rushed hatless out upon the street shouting for Information as to the whereabouts of the airship. There was a wild scurrying around to locate the point of contact but the search was fruitless—the earth had evidently swallowed the aerial visitor and sealed the opening.

Sunday morning, however, hundreds of men joined in the search and about nine o'clock a huge circular hole, twenty feet in diameter was discovered on the cast side of Mahlon Head's celery patch adjacent to the Northwestern depot. The hole was as clean cut and smooth - as though made by expert well-diggers, and was apparently bottomless. Ropes were secured, a heavy iron weight attached to one end and lowered into the abyss. A hundred feet had been played out when there was a sound us If a metallic object had been struck.

The airship had been sounded. [Yes, that is what it said. I don’t understand it.]

The next problem was what to next.

Finally it was decided that someone must descend and investigate. The rope was hauled up, a noose made and volunteers called for.

A hush fell upon the great throng, which by this time numbered over a thousand. It looked as if the scheme must fail when a local newspaper man, clad In a Prince Albert and with n huge $1 25 diamond flashing alternately with his eyes, strode forth and grasped the rope. A lantern, cold chisel, hammer and drill were tied about him, and with a clubbing list, and a Volupuk (sic) dictionary in his inside vest pocket, he gave the word.

It will be a long time before we forget the peaceful expression that lit up his alabastine (sic) face as he disappeared — in fact we don't think we will ever forget it.

Down, down sped the rope until lack of tension showed the explorer had landed. Soon after hoarse, guttural tones in the Volupuk tongue were wafted upwards and then hammer were heard. In the course of half an hour there was a pull at the rope and willing hands hauled away with vim. It seems that the rear portion the ship was blunt like the hot end of a cigar, but a door, apparently fastened on the inside, eighteen inches square was found. The hinges were chiseled off and the door pried open. The Interior was found to consist of an oblong chamber or room eight feet square and eighty feet in length This room, which was situated in the upper part of the ship, was elegantly appointed; finished in plush fancy woods and provided with every convenience. About forty feet from the rear end was a square tower that could be raised and lowered, after the manner of a conning tower upon a submarine torpedo boat. This had been drawn down leaving the ship in the form of a cylinder. At the extreme end toward the bow the bodies of four persons, probably men, were discovered, jammed almost to a pulp by the terrific force of the concussion. The beings were somewhat larger' than earthly inhabitants, and each seemed to have a face on each side of the head, two sets of arms and legs, evidently so as to locomote forward or back without necessitating turning around.

It would be quite interesting to go into the details concerning these strange people, but we must defer that until a future time. At all events they were dead—both sides.

Further Investigation revealed that the ship, except the eight feet occupied by the salon, was perforated, horizontally by tubes about the size of a stove pipe. At the rear was a great propeller (sic), having eight blades. This was connected with a small electric motor, which evidently merely served to start the ship, as when motion has been secured the air rushes through the tubes at such a rapid rate that the propellor was driven at high speed and this forced the ship ahead like greased lightning.

The speed was regulated by means of a brake on the rim of the propellor.

Two plans are suggested. One to build a permanent ladder down to the air ship; another to ascertain if the monster can be raised. It is probable a meeting will be held within a few days to determine upon the best course. Meanwhile a sort of windlass has been erected at the mouth of the opening and hundreds of people have examined the wonderful craft that evidently slipped a cog, somewhere on that fatal Saturday night.

It seems to be the general Impression that the ship hailed from Mars, and if this Is the case, other ships of which there seem to be several hundred, will eventually alight without fatal results to the operators and the secret of aerial navigation will be solved.

Green county is the rendezvous of the fleet of air ships operating in this part of the state, is very evident. The following messages from men of unquestioned veracity, prove this fact and at the same time throw considerable light upon the Interesting topic.

This tells us, in great detail, what happened, or was alleged to have happened. One thing that came out of this is that the crash occurred on April 10 rather than the fifteenth. The date given by many of us for the crash was based on the date of the newspaper story rather than the date of the actual incident. There was very little follow up.

UFO Crashes Fifty Years Before Roswell

Zoamchomsky, in response to a comment in the last posting, suggested that there had been stories of UFO crashes for more than fifty years prior to the Roswell case. He was asked to provide sources but that isn’t really necessary. There is plenty of evidence that this is true and for those who would like to see a long listing of them, including a story or two that are centuries old, take a look at Crash: When UFOs Fall from the Sky.

In 1897 the Great Airship was being seen all over the Midwest and Southern states, with occasional excursions into the West. A report from San Angelo, Texas, for example, mentioned that the airship had flown into a flock of birds and exploded. In Waterloo, Iowa, the airship was found on the fairgrounds, and while not a crash, was certainly a landing, complete with crew members who described their flight.

The big story, and the one that nearly everyone has heard about, is the crash in Aurora, Texas on April 17, 1897. I have believed since I investigated the case in the early 1970s that it was a hoax. I talked to longtime residents, some who had been alive in 1897, to the Wise County historian (Aurora being in Wise County) and searched what records were available. I could find no follow up investigation, and nothing about it was mentioned in the Wise County histories, one published within ten years of the event. In other words, there simply wasn’t any evidence that there had been a crash with the exception of the original story in a Dallas newspaper in 1897.

Why mention this now, after having already posted about it a long time ago (See Aurora, Texas - A Story that Won’t Die, March 27, 2005)? Well, in the process of consolidating files and clearing out duplications and other clutter, I found a strip of black and white photographic negatives. I had not seen them in decades. I knew that I had them I just couldn’t put my hands on them.

When I held them up to the light to see what they were, I saw a picture that had a sign that said, “Aurora” and taken at what had been an Arco gas station on the outskirts of Aurora. There were a couple of other pictures of that, and knew that it was an old habit of taking three pictures at different exposures to ensure that one would be usable.

The prize, however, were the last three pictures. They were taken in the Aurora Cemetery at time I was there. They look as if they were taken in a rainstorm with a dense cloud cover. Given today’s technology, I was able to clean them up slightly so they are better than they were.

There is nothing startling on these pictures. The headstone with the three balls on it is not visible. When I was there, walking the graveyard, I didn’t see that stone and now it has disappeared. It was supposedly the marker of the “Martian’s” grave.

I print the pictures here for the little historical value they have. There is nothing on the negatives to prove when I was there or when I took them and too the real cynic, there is nothing on them to prove that I was actually there. However, in the late 1960s and early 1970s, I did live in Texas, not all that far by Texas standards, from Aurora, so I took some time to explore the sighting. I will say, one last time so that it is clear, I do not believe that an alien craft crashed at Aurora and, in fact, don’t believe that anything crashed there on April 17, 1897.

An Airship Photograph

I am probably one of the worst people when it comes to promoting my work. I think that others should do that and that each book should generate interest because of what is in it rather than what I have to say about it. But, sometimes, there are reasons to promote what I have written… and sometimes it is important to report what others have done to make the book even better.

Such is the case with Alien Mysteries, Conspiracies and Cover-ups. One of those who was helping find illustrations made a telephone call that I hadn’t thought about. He found a photograph that I didn’t know existed.

Back in April, 1897, the Cedar Rapids Evening Gazette carried a story about a Great Airship that had fallen, crashed, came to rest on the fairgrounds of Waterloo, Iowa. There was a human crew, complete with a German professor, and a tale of tragedy.

There was an airship on the ground, though no one, other than the crew, suggested it have ever been off the ground. After hours of telling the story to all who would listen, one of the men was recognized as a Waterloo resident and the tale collapsed. The hoax was exposed.

 

I had an illustration that appeared in the Cedar Rapids newspaper but since this was a hoax I never made the trip to Waterloo… oh, but I should have. Imagine my surprise and I first saw a photograph of the Waterloo airship from their newspaper, the Waterloo Courier. Not a drawing, wood cutting, or illustration. An actual photograph of the airship sitting in the bright sunlight of the nineteenth century.

 

As you can see, the Gazette drawing is accurate, but then, it’s not the same as a photograph from the Courier… which might be the only photograph of one of the Great Airships… and please note that I said, “Might.”

The point… the photograph appears in the book. It isn’t the only photograph. There are many, but it was the one that stunned me when I first saw it. Just never thought there would be an actual photograph… but it does suggest something about research. There is always another stone to be turned over, another archive to search, and another government office to deny that anything is out there.

For those interested, the book Alien Mysteries, Conspiracies and Cover-ups, should be available about now.

Anecdotal Testimony and Scientific Observation

Here is a question that will become increasingly important in the coming years. When does anecdotal testimony become scientific observation? Or conversely, when does scientific observation deteriorate into anecdotal testimony?

We have been gathering data in the UFO field for decades (I’m not sure when a real effort began because we have divided everything into periods... The Great Airship of 1897, the Foo Fighters of WW II and the Ghost Rockets in Europe in 1946.) During some of those periods serious scientific investigations were attempted. The Foo Fighters were of intelligence interest during the war and were taken quite seriously by the military according to the good work done by Keith Chester. The Ghost Rockets were investigated by Lieutenant General Jimmy Doolittle in 1946, and the Air Force began a serious look at UFOs in 1948.

We have seen, in scientific enquiry where what would be considered in our world as anecdotal testimony has become scientific observation. Back in 1803, French naturalist, Jean-Bastiste Biot undertook a study of rocks that had fallen from the sky. The French Academy of Sciences, just the year before, had suggested that there were no rocks in the sky.

Here’s what is significant today. He talked to the witnesses of the falling rocks. These were untrained and unschooled people who had been on the scene when the rocks fell. He didn’t reject what they had to say because he knew that rocks couldn’t fall from the sky. He listened to them and recorded, carefully, what they had seen. He was careful to separate interpretation from the facts. This anecdotal testimony became scientific observation because it had been properly recorded even though the witnesses themselves were not scientists, and often had no formal schooling at all.

In today’s world, when we have witnesses to a UFO event, we are quick to dismiss their observations because they are anecdotal. They are not trained witnesses, even when we can talk to them within days of their sighting, even when they have written down what they have seen, and even if there is some sort of independent observations by instrumentality or photography. We argue about the validity of what they have seen because they are not reporting what we wish them to say.

A couple of years ago two young skeptics decided to perform an experiment to prove that eyewitnesses were unreliable and that UFO investigators were incompetent. They launched flares attached to balloons and waited for the UFO reports to come in...

But what we saw was that the witnesses, if they didn’t identify the balloons and flares for what they were, described, accurately, what they had seen. They talked about the nature of the lights, meaning they were red and moving slowly. They didn’t, for the most part, talk about anything other than the lights moving through the sky, though one of the witnesses did talk about a strange formation.

UFO investigators, called in, immediately identified the lights as of terrestrial manufacture and one police officer even told reporters that the lights were flares on balloons.

The point was that the witness testimony, and a careful listening to what the witnesses said, proved that they had been accurate. Trouble emerges when everyone begins to speculate about the nature of the lights... and most of these were reporters who tried to turn the story into something alien. One reporter even asking a child about aliens, when none of the witnesses had said anything about spacecraft or aliens.

Yes, I understand that with UFOs we need more than witness testimony, but the real question is why do we reject that testimony by labeling it as anecdotal? At what point can we accept the testimony as something more than the unschooled observations of the rube?

And why is it that only that testimony that seems to suggest that the observation was mundane is accepted at face value while that which suggests something strange is rejected automatically?

In other words, when does anecdotal testimony become scientific observation?