David Grusch and his UFO Crashes

 

About a year ago, David Grusch showed up on the UFO scene talking about UFO crashes. In the course of his revelations, he mentioned a dozen UFO crashes over the years. Now, I sometimes think that I’m the leading expert on UFO crashes, having inherited the title from the late Len Stringfield, so I believe can speculate with some expertise on the subject of UFO crashes. Without Len, we might not even be having this conversation but Len brought the whole subset of UFO crashes into the public arena.

David Grusch

For those who are unfamiliar with this, Len began investigating tales of UFO crashes, years before the rest of us climbed on that bandwagon. He collected the stories with little in the way of critical comment. His theory was to publish the information, knowing that someone would attempt to verify it. Without that beginning, we wouldn’t be having this discussion today.

That brings us to David Grusch, who “leaked” some information about crashes but not very much. He mentioned two crashes. One at Roswell that is so well known now that it was an answer on Jeopardy! The other was something alleged to have happened in Italy in 1933. Americans captured the craft from the Italians at the end of the Second World War.

Italian UFO researchers, who investigated the claims about the case some twenty to thirty years ago, concluded that it was a hoax. It would seem that anyone on the inside, that is the people feeding information to Grush, would have known that. You can see the evidence here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2023/06/david-grush-and-1933-italian-ufo-crash.html

Connected to Roswell, is the reported case of a crash of a craft on the Plains of San Agustin in western New Mexico. This tale was linked to the Roswell UFO crash when Stan Friedman suggested that two alien craft had collided, one falling to earth near Roswell and the other much farther to the west. The best evidence is that this aspect of the Roswell case is a hoax. You can learn more about it here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/search?q=Plains+of+San+Agustin

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2021/04/did-herbert-dick-lie-about-being-on.html

http://www.cufos.org/books/Plains_of_San_AgustinR.pdf

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-plains-of-san-agustin-crash.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2022/09/lue-elizondo-and-two-crashes-on-same-day.html

https://www.ufoexplorations.com/other-roswell-crash-secret-of-plain

From that point, Grusch has said that he has more information about the other ten, that he had talked to people who had seen some of these craft, but that he hasn’t seen anything himself. Don Schmitt, Tom Carey, and I can make the same claim. The difference is that we have named names. Lots of names. Some turned out to be charlatans, others just felt they wanted to tell an interesting story, and a few thought of it was a way to financial gain. But there is a solid core of individuals who were there and who were first-hand witnesses. You can learn about some of them here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2007/07/edwin-easley-and-roswell.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2009/09/paul-kimball-lance-moody-ufos-and-me.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2023/11/new-documentation-for-roswell-easley.html

My point is that some of us have been around long enough that we can figure out what crashes Grusch has been told about. In no particular order, here is what I know about this. The Aztec, New Mexico crash on March 25, 1948, is probably the first UFO crash that gained any sort of national attention. Frank Scully published a book, Behind the Flying Saucers, that told the tale of the crash. Though he mentioned a couple of other alleged crashes, he focused on the Aztec event because he had talked to the men who knew all about.

The story was that craft was found near tiny Aztec, was recovered by the military and had contained bodies of the Venusian flight crew. The story was exposed as a hoax and for those interested in following this down the rabbit hole, I suggest reading Scully’s book, then William Steinman’s compilation of nonsense, UFO Crash at Aztec and finally Scott Ramsey’s The Aztec Incident on the pro side but with supporting evidence that is weak to nonexistent. Ramsey did a good job of running down alleged witnesses, but he didn’t have the opportunity to interview anyone with first-hand knowledge. In other words, Ramey and his team interviewed people who knew people who said they knew something about the case. And some of those witnesses said that there had been no crash.

There is good evidence on the other side of the argument, you can read Monte Shriver’s investigation on this blog here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2013/02/aztec-in-perspective-by-monte-shriver.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2013/02/aztec-in-perspective-by-monte-shriver_8.html

I suspect one of the better tales is that from Kecksburg, Pennsylvania on December 9, 1965. This case is the bailiwick of Stan Gordon who was on the scene within hours to investigate and has carried out that investigation over the decades. Working with Leslie Kean, Gordon even sued NASA in an attempt to gather additional information. However, like so much in this aspect of UFO crashes, there is a plausible alternative. You can read more about this case here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2021/11/x-zone-broadcast-network-stan-gordon.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2017/01/x-zone-boardcast-network-stan-gordon.html

The Del Rio, Texas, UFO crash has been the subject of an ongoing investigation for decades. It was accepted by UFO researchers in the beginning because a high ranking, retired Air Force officer, provided an affidavit proving the authenticity of his information. This crash, misidentified as the El Indio – Guerrero crash was included in the MJ-12 documents, providing even more credibility. The problem was the high-ranking officer, Robert Willingham was not a high-ranking officer, was not a fighter pilot as claimed and the documentation from both the military records center in St. Louis and the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver did not verify his officer status. He was, according to the available information, a low-ranking enlisted man who served only thirteen months on active duty. You can read more about that here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2011/08/absense-of-evidence.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2014/03/ihave-argued-for-years-that-eisenhower.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2018/06/mj-12-and-cognitive-dissonance.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2010/07/del-rio-ufo-crash-and-mj-12.html

One of the reports that has received traction in the last couple of years was the story from little San Antonio, New Mexico, about a crash there in 1945. Dr. Jacques Vallee, along with Paola Harris published a book, Trinity: The Best Kept Secret, that provided two eyewitness accounts of the crash and retrieval. Those witnesses, who were youngsters at the time of crash offered shifting accounts as to the date, the names of other witnesses, and the military recovery operation. Douglas Dean Johnson has made an in-depth study of that case and has provided amazing evidence that it never happened. You can read all about it here:

https://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/douglas-dean-johnson-exposes-jacques-vallee-and-the-trinity-ufo-hoax

https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/crash-story-file-the-reme-baca-smoking-gun-interview/

https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/crash-story-the-trinity-ufo-crash-hoax/

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2021/06/trinity-best-kept-secret-critique.html

I learned of the Las Vegas UFO crash as I was conducting research into the Roswell case. I interviewed witnesses in Utah who had seen a low flying UFO about fifteen minutes before the craft was seen to explode in the sky east of Las Vegas, Nevada. Hundreds of witnesses in Las Vegas saw that explosion. The Air Force wrote the case off as a bolide, that is a bright meteor, but I originally had reason to suspect that was not a good answer. However, additional investigation has led me to conclude the Air Force explanation was probably accurate, but there are many who still do not accept that answer. You can read more about it here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/search?q=Las+Vegas+UFO+Crash

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2008/08/las-vegas-ufo-crash.html

One of what is considered among the first UFO crashes took place in tiny Aurora, Texas in April 1897. The craft allegedly hit a windmill and exploded. The local residents found the mangled body of the lone occupant and buried it in the Aurora cemetery. UFO researchers began to visit Aurora to validate this early case, which was a hoax started by a stringer for a Dallas newspaper. You can read more about this here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2005/03/aurora-texas-story-that-wont-die.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2018/04/aurora-texas-again.html

The case of a crash near Kingman, Arizona in 1953 might be included because the original story was told by a man who seemed credible. He said, and the evidence proved, that he had worked in the Frenchman Flats area of southern Nevada on a project that dealt with atomic energy. He also said that he was assigned in some capacity to Project Blue Book. There is no evidence that this claim is true.

Although originally called Fritz Werner by Raymond Fowler in an article published in 1976, his real name was Arthur Stansel. He said that he had received a call in May 1953 about some sort of important and classified event. As evidence of this, Stansel provided two pages from his work calendar that mentioned a special assignment, but no details were given.

He boarded a bus with many others and taken to a site where they were given specific jobs to do, they were not to speak to the others on the bus, and once their task was completed, they were loaded back on the bus, with warnings that they were never to mention this. In a rather stupid move, an Air Force NCO had a list of names that he called out to ensure that people got to the places they were to work.

Stansel did see a disk that had crashed, and by accident, saw the deceased members of the crew that were not human. He returned to Frenchman Flats and his regular assignment.

Years later, a woman, Judie Woolcott, said that her late husband had been part of the recovery team, which added credibility to the tale. She claimed to have a letter he had written to her while he served in Vietnam, providing some detail. However, she was unable to produce the letter. She said he had been killed in the Vietnam War. Her daughter later contacted me, explaining that her mother made up tales and that her father had not died in Vietnam. You can read more about that here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2011/05/kingman-ufo-crash-really.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-decline-and-fall-of-ufology.html

For those interested in tales that have some physical evidence, is the case from Ubatuba, Brazil. According to the most popular version, witnesses saw a craft explode in the air, raining debris down on a local beach in September 1957. Some of it was picked up by an unknown witness who sent it to a radio station reporter. The material eventually made it to APRO here in the US. It has been analyzed by several organizations including the Air Force that inadvertently destroyed its sample. You can read more about this here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2010/05/ubatuba-ufo-sample.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2021/12/jacques-vallee-and-ten-unexplained-ufo.html

Recently, Jacques Vallee reported that the date was wrong. The explosion took place much earlier, prior to World War Two. Vallee’s information contradicts the originally reported tale and Vallee offered nothing in the way of evidence.

According to Len Stringfield, he was contacted by a woman who claimed that her grandfather had been to the scene of a UFO crash near Cape Girardeau, Missouri, in 1941. She claimed there had been a picture taken of the off-world creatures, but the picture had been lost over the years. She only saw the picture and heard her father taking about the crash. She saw nothing else.

A man, who saw nothing himself but whose father had been involved also told his story of the alleged crash. Other than these two people, who apparently saw nothing themselves, no one else has come forward to validate the claim. There are those who accept the story as real. You can read more about it here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2019/12/cape-girardeau-ufo-crash-1941.html

The one case that has some credibility to it, other than Roswell, was the crash that took place near Shag Harbour, Canada in 1968. It has been investigated in-depth by Chris Styles and Don Ledger. They have uncovered official Canadian documents, some of which were originally classified, proving that something fell into the harbour and that both the Canadian and the US governments and military responded, searching the downed craft. Like Roswell, everyone agrees that some fell, it is the identity of that something that is in dispute. You can learn more about it here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2021/05/just-last-friday-may14-another-video.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2017/02/x-zone-broadcast-network-don-ledger.html

So, this is my speculation about the most likely UFO crashes that David Grusch might have been talking about. It is basically a collection of highly suspect tales, but these are ones that many of the alleged insiders have talked about in the past. Some of what Grusch has said suggests that he has meet these people.

Much of what he has said is negated by his claim of inside information about the Italian crash. If it is a hoax, as it most certainly is, then the insiders feeding him information had no more inside knowledge that I do, or other UFO researchers do. Our access is through interviews with known participants, research into documents held by various federal and local government agencies, travels to archives and newspaper morgues. 

I came to these speculations through reports that I have received from many others in the UFO community. For example, I was told that Grusch spent time at Skinwalker Ranch. I’m not going to comment on that particular investigation here. I will note, however, that it did suggest that Grusch brushed elbows with several once important members of various administrations in Washington, D.C. And, I know what some of them have advocated in the past, which suggests where some of Grusch’s inside information originated.

The question really boils down to how many of the cases mentioned above are those that Grusch believes were true, and how much of that information did he feed in the various investigations conducted, in secret, to Congress?

The point here is that without more specific information from Grusch and some of those others, we are left with very little evidence. And if the majority of Grusch’s information is from fraudulent crash reports, why should we waste time chasing down the others.

True, I believe Roswell represents something that might have been constructed off-world, and there is good documentation for the Shag Harbour case, the best conclusion to be drawn is that those other reports are either mistakes or misidentifications. Unless Grusch can come up with something that is more concrete than he has heard stories of credible people, he is not advancing the case. In the long run, it will hurt it and no one will remember that I cautioned against acceptance until we had more evidence. They will only remember how Grusch’s inside information was little more than rumor, speculation, and science fiction.  So, while Grusch might be an honest man whose is beyond reproach, that doesn’t mean that the information he was given is any good. Just remember you heard it here first.

 

As a postscript, I will note that by typing the names of these cases in the search engine on my blog, you’ll find additional information. By typing the names of these cases into Google or other search engines, you’ll find additional information. Many sites will provide counterpoints to what I have listed here, but I reviewed many of those sites in the creation of my postings and often found them wanting for good sources and the like.

X-Zone Broadcast Network - Robert Koford and the Aztec UFO Crash

This week I interviewed Robert Koford who has visited here frequently, commenting on various aspects of the UFO phenomenon. This discussion was inspired by his investigation into the Aztec UFO crash claim from March 25, 1948. This story has

Robert Koford

been around publicly much longer than the Roswell case but has far fewer witnesses and virtually no documentation to substantiate the crash. In fact, unlike Roswell where everyone agrees that something fell, with Aztec there are many members of the community who deny that anything happened. You can listen to the program here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/23484702

Bob bases his interest on a series of documents that suggest that General Carl Spaatz issued orders about an event on March 25. Although it seems to related to “flying discs”, one of the names given to the flying saucers, there is nothing to tie it to Aztec and apparently no one seems to know what triggered Spaatz’s response. You can see the documents and some of Bob’s arguments at his website found here: 

https://www.ourunconventionalskies.com/

As I mentioned on the show, I have addressed the Aztec crash on a number of occasions on this blog. For those of you interested in reading the background about the case, you can find it here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2013/02/aztec-in-perspective-by-monte-shriver.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2013/02/aztec-in-perspective-by-monte-shriver_8.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2013/02/aztec-in-persspection-by-monte-shriver.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2012/06/aztec-karl-pflock-and-scott-ramsey.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2012/05/aztec-incident-by-scott-and-suzanne.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-aztec-incident-review-by-jerome.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2016/05/return-to-aztec.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-real-honest-to-goodness-date-of.html

And for those who would like to hear what Monte Shriver has to say about the crash, I interviewed him on the radio show/podcast. You can listen to it here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2017/05/x-zone-broadcast-network-monte-shriver.html

And for those who worry about not providing Scott Ramsey with the opportunity to refute many of these points, I will note that I have invited him on the program several of times. He had refused all those opportunities. I have no plans to invite him again.

I hope that all this provides enough information for those interested in the Aztec case to make some sort of intelligent decision about the reality of this crash. Just for the record, I have copies of Steinman’s book UFO Crash at Aztec, and, of course Ramsey’s book, not to mention a variety of other magazine articles about it, including Coral Lorenzen’s investigation in the mid-1970s reported in The APRO Bulletin.

Next week, I’ll be talking with Michael Hall about his UFO experiences and his UFOiTeam. If you have questions, send them as a comment here and I’ll get to them during the show.

X-Zone Broadcast Network - Monte Shriver (Aztec UFO Crash)

Monte Shriver

Although I have always thought that the evidence for a UFO crash near Aztec, New Mexico, in 1948, was probably false, this tale keeps popping up as if it is something real. I reached out to a former Aztec resident, a man who was in high school in Aztec in 1948, and who has spent the last several years investigating the case, Monte Shriver. (Interestingly, it was Scott Ramsey who rather nastily told me to invite Shriver on the show.) Shriver knew the people in Aztec who were supposedly aware of this crash and who, using the historical records and documentation available has provided a different perspective on the case. You can listen to the interview here:

http://differentperspective.rnn.libsynpro.com/a-different-perspective-with-kevin-randle-ep-0040-guest-monte-shriver-aztec-ufo-crash

(I have learned that if you go to YouTube and type in “A Different Perspective,” you’ll find all the programs there so that you can sort through the ones you wish to hear if this long link doesn’t take you to the right place.)

Our discussion sometimes moved into the minutia of the situation giving the impression of vital errors and while that might suggest trouble with the overall tale, I also thought it could be the sort of mistake that someone who hadn’t lived in the area would make. Aztec resident Shriver knew all the roads, rivers and ravines, but those outsiders investigating might just confuse one river for another proving only that sometimes the trivia is hard to keep straight. These were some of the things that Shriver pointed out, though I wasn’t overly impressed with what I think of as minor problems.

But there were, and are, other much larger problems with the tale. One of the alleged eyewitnesses claimed to have been working for the El Paso Natural Gas company in 1948 which was the reason he saw the crash but the records seem to indicate that the company didn’t arrive until a year or two later. And a photograph of “drip tanks” that were close to some kind of fire in 1948 that brought in other witnesses hadn’t been built until years later. If you want to follow up on this, you can read about all these things in Shriver’s own words here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/search?q=Monte+Shriver

There are many problems with the Aztec UFO crash case, not the least of which is the lack of any sort of documentation from 1948. There are no newspaper articles, no military records and by the time you reach some of the FBI statements that have been available for years, you realize those are based on the book, Behind the Flying Saucers and not on evidence derived from the field.

Next week’s guest: Nick Redfern

Topic: His theory of what fell at Roswell.

X-Zone Broadcast Network - Jan Harzan

Jan Harzan

Jan Harzan, the executive director at MUFON, was my guest. We did talk about the organizational structure of MUFON but we didn’t go into depth simply because such logistical details are of little real importance and not very interesting to listen to. That finished, we talked about some of the best UFO sightings, Hangar One, and the idea that MUFON had been infiltrated by members of the intelligence community as suggested by a former state director. You can listen to the program here:

http://differentperspective.rnn.libsynpro.com/a-different-perspective-with-kevin-randle-ep-0039-guest-jan-harzan-exec-dir-mufon

The sighting Jan Harzan chose to talk about is one from Canada in 2013. This involved a large, dumbbell-shaped object that emitted some sort of electromagnetic signal. Although the witnesses, whose names are not provided, managed to take video of the object, when they reviewed the video, the object was not visible but some of the radiation emitted from it did seem to be recorded. Analysis of that video is being made, but when I asked for names of the witnesses, I was told about some of the scientists who had expressed an interest in the video, and about those who had attended a conference that had nothing to do with UFOs. Some of the attendees did think the video interesting but I still didn’t learn who the witnesses were. Without that information, it is difficult to validate the sighting. I was asked if I was calling the witnesses liars, but how could I do that when I didn’t know who they were, what they had actually said and if the details have been skewed by those reporting them? This case is labeled as 74282 and more details are available at the MUFON website. You find information about this here (if the link still works):

http://www.inquisitr.com/2867407/dod-whistleblower-scientist-reports-baffling-blue-plasma-ufo-sighting-mufon-rates-witness-extremely-credible-video/

I couldn’t remember if the tale of the “star soldier” had been part of the Hangar One series or one of the other nonsensical “documentaries” that have been aired in the last couple of years so I didn’t ask about it specifically. Turns out that it was part of Hangar One and you can read my take on it here:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/search?q=Hangar+One

I did have a problem with Jan Harzan’s deflecting the blame for this series from MUFON to the producers. Sure, I know producers have their own agendas and that often it is in conflict with what some of those participating in the show have, but when he suggested this wasn’t a documentary but something else, I thought that was too much. Instead, he told me how many new members the series had produced and how the financial situation at MUFON had improved. The point that was missed was that Hangar One was being broadcast as a documentary that obtained its information in the MUFON files, and the star soldier was part of that whole process. The program was a disservice to UFO research even if it had been financially rewarding to MUFON.

Next week’s guest: Monte Shriver

Topic: Aztec UFO Crash

Return to Aztec

As those of you who visit here regularly know, I am not a fan of the Aztec UFO crash of 1948. I have followed the story since I was in high school and remember finding a copy of the True magazine article in a Denver used bookstore in the early 1960s. To me, it was the definitive investigation of the case. I watched in the 1970s as the story was revitalized for a few months, and then in the 1980s when William Steinman wrote his book about the case that was filled with misinformation, leaps of logic, and a really bad organization without an index.

We’ve seen another attempt at this with Stan Friedman leaping aboard the bandwagon of Scott Ramsey’s parade toward the ridiculous. Although Ramsey has claimed he has spent half a million dollars in his reinvestigation (and I have no reason to doubt that figure) but his attempts at revitalizing the tale have fallen short. He has no real documentation, he has some interesting historical facts that aren’t all that relevant and a few relevant ones that he believes are unimportant and some testimony that seems to be almost first hand but really isn’t.

While I would like to join that parade, the evidence, at least to me, falls way short, and I’m sure that I’ll be labeled just another debunker. It is far easier to label those who disagree with you than to respond to the criticisms that they might raise (Friedman called me an anti-abduction propagandist for my position on that topic).

Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. Picture copyright by Kevin Randle

For example, I found the Donald “Sam” Bass tale to be unreliable. Bass couldn’t be interviewed because he had allegedly died in an automobile accident while serving in Vietnam. I cited the list of those killed kept by the Park Service who maintains the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. as my source to reject the tale. Bass’ name was not on it. Ramsey said that they claimed that they might have missed some of the names though they had worked to make sure the memorial contains list all those who died in Vietnam. I said that if we had his serial number, we could gain his records as another way to check the tale. While Ramsey said he did have the serial number, he wouldn’t supply it to me so that I might verify the information about Bass.

Ramsey also used the “first-hand” testimony from Doug Noland. I was never sure if Ramsey actually interviewed Noland or if he was using a tape of an interview with Noland that had been made by John Lear. It is clear from the information available that Noland had not gone into the interview “clean.” I mean he had read Steinman’s book and was aware of the story. Noland didn’t seem to be a real good source, but there was a tape made of his discussion with Lear.

Now Monte Shriver in an email to me on April 30 he expanded on some of his criticism. He wrote:

In comparing Scott Ramsey's video presentations and the Books, he has Doug working for either El Paso Gas or El Paso Oil in 1948. In the book "The Pipeliners - The story of El Paso Natural Gas" at page 151, the company did not arrive in the San Juan Basin [which encompasses the Aztec area and a large part of the Four Corners] until the summer of 1950 (I [this being Shriver] have found several other inconsistencies between Scott's videos and the books). In a publication by The New Mexico Geological Society it quotes from a book by Thomas A. Dugan in a section called "The San Juan Basin-Episodes and Aspirations" as follows: "In February 1950, the Federal Power Commission issued a temporary permit to El Paso Natural Gas Company to lay a transmission line from the San Juan Basin to the California border. The final permit was issued July 14, 1950 and gas started moving through the line during late summer of 1951...Farmington and the San Juan Basin changed drastically and would never be the same again...El Paso immediately became the most active company and the leader of development in the basin in the fifties and sixties..." There is no record of any other company having the name El Paso Gas or El Paso Oil except for the El Paso Natural Gas Company.

In his book, Ramsey seems to indicate that he had interviewed Manuel Sandoval who was a law enforcement officer in 1948, but Ramsey told me that he had not interviewed him but members of the family and the story told might be third hand at best. I don’t believe that Ramsey was intentionally attempting to mislead here, but his writing style was not as clear as it could have been. Shriver, however, added a note about this, telling me:

Ramsey also has Manuel Sandoval patrolling a Southern Union Gas line from the San Juan Basin to Los Alamos in 1948. In Dugan's "The San Juan Basin-Episodes and Aspirations" he notes that "On March 3, 1949, The Atomic Energy Commission announced their plans to build a pipeline from a point about 25 miles south of Bloomfield to Los Alamos, about 30 miles northeast of Santa Fe. The gas would be purchased from Southern Union Gas Company; the line was to be completed before winter".  Ramsey's source has Mr. Sandoval patrolling the line more than a year before it was built".

None of this bodes well for the Aztec tale. I have mentioned in the past that there are no local newspaper articles about it, and some of the witnesses have altered their stories radically over the years and many of the long-time residents say that the crash never happened. The town seems to be split into those who believe the story and those who don’t, which is no real surprise. It does seem, as mentioned in other posts here, that the weight of the evidence suggests that this tale is not based in fact.

Shriver, who tells me he has “retired from rebutting Ramsey’s Aztec UFO claims,” has provided another rebuttal to the new version of the book. It is an interesting document, but for those without a board understanding of the Aztec crash claims, it will be difficult to follow. It is just one more nail in the coffin of a tale that should have been buried a long time ago.

For more information on the Aztec case, as published here in the last couple of years, please see:

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2012/05/aztec-incident-by-scott-and-suzanne.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2013/02/aztec-in-persspection-by-monte-shriver.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2013/02/aztec-in-persspection-by-monte-shriver.html

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2014/09/sam-bass-aztec-and-scott-ramsey.html

Aztec in Perspective by Monte Shriver - Part Three

(Blogger’s Note: The following is reprinted by permission. Given the length of the original article, I have broken it into three parts and will publish all three over the next week. It was written by one-time resident of Aztec, Monte Shriver, and provides an interesting insight into the alleged crash. This is Part Three, the final installment. Again, reprinted by permission of Monte Shriver.)

 

THE IMPROBABLE JOURNEY OF MANUEL SANDOVAL

 

Considering the timing related to the finding of the disc, I think it is reasonable to assume that it landed (crashed?) in Hart Canyon between 4:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m.  With sunrise being at 6:08 a.m., it had to be quite dark at the time the disc arrived. Why is this important? Because some time after the sun rose, Mr. Sandoval who followed the disc all the way from Cuba finally arrived at the site.  What we know about Mr. Sandoval is based upon interviews Mr. Ramsey conducted with Johnny Hernandez, Town Historian of Cuba, other residents of Cuba and from what Doug Noland told Mr. Ramsey. 

As related to Mr. Ramsey, Mr. Sandoval worked part time for the Cuba police department with the title of deputy sheriff. He replaced a Sam Sambrano who had been promoted to sheriff. These titles don’t make any sense. Bernalillo is the county seat of Sandoval County and that is where the sheriff’s office is located. In two visits with the Sandoval County sheriff’s office, they were unable to locate a Sam Sambrano who was sheriff in 1948. Normally, a sheriff is elected, not appointed unless there is a vacancy in the sheriff’s office. I suspect Mr. Sambrano was actually the police chief of Cuba. On page 2 of the Ramsey book, Doug Noland told Mr. Ramsey that “…Manuel Sandoval, explained that he was from the town of Cuba, N.M., and that he had followed the low flying disc-shaped craft in a northerly direction during the early morning hours…”. When Mr. Sambrano came to work on the morning of March 25, I suspect he wondered what happened to his night officer and his patrol car.

So what we are supposed to believe is that sometime after midnight on the morning on March 25, 1948, this craft flying very slowly and low enough for Mr. Sandoval to follow it, flew from Cuba to Counselors, turned north and headed down Largo Canyon towards Blanco. Don’t forget, Mr. Ramsey maintains that this was the correct route to Aztec in 1948 and that even today the trip (down Largo) is long and slow. So either the craft flew as slow as 20-30 miles per hour or perhaps it dropped bread crumbs for Mr. Sandoval to follow. Anyway, the craft turned left on SR 17 when it exited Largo Canyon, continued west through Blanco to Bloomfield. Why did the craft turn left on SR 17 when it exited Largo?  Because that is the only bridge over the San Juan River in the area. Why do I know it went west out of Blanco?  Because Sandoval said it almost hit a mesa near Bloomfield which is 9 miles straight west of Blanco. Now a Valentine Archuleta suddenly appears on the scene and says he saw the saucer pass over his ranch in the early morning hours(perhaps around 4:00 a.m.?), strike a ridge and head north towards Hart Canyon. I think this is the first time a Valentine Archuleta is mentioned in the Ramsey book so where did he come from? Is this the V. A. mentioned in Steinman’s book (page 258)? As related by Mr. Steinman, all V.A. could remember was that he saw the craft somewhere between 1948 and 1950!!!!!! In addition, V. A. lived in Blanco (although on the wrong river). So, did it hit the mesa at Blanco or at Bloomfield?

Let’s go back to Mr. Sandoval and the craft. After it hit the mesa near Bloomfield, it must have either turned north and went over Aztec or flew northeast from Bloomfield to Hart Canyon. This is apparently where Mr. Sandoval lost sight of the craft because if it crashed between 4:00 and 5:00 a.m., it took Mr. Sandoval another two hours or so to reach the crash site. If he followed the craft to Bloomfield from Blanco and if the craft flew to the northeast, the only logical way for him to go was through Aztec and then turn north on Highway 550. How did he know to turn up the Hart Canyon road? It must have been those danged bread crumbs again.  There is another option we should consider. Maybe the captain of the craft knew that SR 44 was paved all the way from Cuba through Counselors to Aztec and decided not to force Mr. Sandoval to drive that bumpy road down Largo Canyon in the dark.

On page 146, Mr. Ramsey again demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the New Mexico highway system. Don’t forget, Mr. Ramsey maintains that to get to Aztec from Cuba, the road turns north at Counselors and goes down Largo Canyon.  Yet Mr. Sandoval reportedly  watched for speeders on Highway 44 that connected Bernalillo to Farmington. This is the same road one uses to get to Aztec. SR 44 goes from Bernalillo through Cuba to Bloomfield. At Bloomfield you either continue north to Aztec or turn left and go to Farmington.

Mr. Hernandez told Mr. Ramsey that Andy Andrews, New Mexico State Police from Farmington and Mr. Sandoval got into an argument with Dr. Lincoln LaPaz from the University of New Mexico who was investigating “green light” sightings in the Cuba area. Mr. Hernandez said that one of the two officers “almost came over the table at LaPaz”. I asked Andy’s daughter, Evaleene, if her dad ever patrolled from Farmington to Cuba and had he ever mentioned anything about green lights and the incident with Dr. LaPaz. She said he did patrol to Cuba but that he never mentioned seeing any green lights or the incident with Dr. LaPaz. 

 

MOVING THE CRAFT TO LOS ALAMOS

 

In chapter nine, Mr. Ramsey and Mr. Metzger go into great detail about how one  could move the craft, separated into three pieces, using an Army M26 6X6 tractor and an M15 semi-trailer. I think the equipment as shown on page 159 would have worked quite well for the move of the craft.  According to Wikipedia, the M26 had a crew of seven, a top speed of 26 mph and a 140 gallon gas tank. To me, the devil is in the details and so I pose the following questions:

 

1.With the craft broken into three sections, were three M26’s used for the move?

 

2. Where were they located and how long did it take them to arrive on the scene?

3. If two 60 foot cranes were required, how were they transported to the site?

4. Assuming two bulldozers were required, were they driven to the site or hauled in on low-boy trailers?

 

Given the strange appearance of the M26 (the armored version) and M15 semi-trailer, how could they, along with the 60 foot cranes, not have been noticed on the way to the site, lumbering along at a top speed of 26 MPH.  

We are now all loaded and ready for the move. I assume we will have a convoy of three loaded M26’s, perhaps a fuel truck, 2 semi’s pulling low-boy trailers for the bulldozers (unless they were driven all the way) and an unknown number of support vehicles including outriders to clear the road ahead of oncoming traffic because of a load 50 feet wide. Let’s assume we make it down Pump Canyon to the San Juan River without being seen(Right!!!).  Pump Canyon enters the San Juan River just west of Archuleta, NM and east of Blanco, NM. Now I think it is important to discuss a little history of the area between Blanco and Archuleta.

The following information is taken from The Place Names of New Mexico -Revised Edition” by Robert Julyan: 1998 University of New Mexico Press

 ARCHULETA : “…settlement on S bank of the San Juan River…at Gobernador Wash…The Archuletas were among the first Hispanic settlers in this area in the 1870’s and their descendants still live in and around this tiny community…”.

BLANCO : When Hispanic settlers moved into the San Juan Basin in the 1870’s, Blanco was among their first communities, and because it was more centrally located with respect to Largo Canyon, site of much farming and ranching….”

 The point I wish to make here is that the area between Blanco and Archuleta has been continuously occupied and farmed since the 1870’s. On June 29-30, 2012 my wife and I drove both the north and south sides of the San Juan River from Blanco past Archuleta to the San Juan River Bridge (this bridge did not exist in 1948) on NM 173 and NM 173 did not run this way until 1963 when Aztec volunteers with help from the Ray L. Atchison Construction Company built the Navajo Dam road from Aztec. In 1948, NM 173  was a 14 mile long dirt road from Blanco to Aztec. When we drove the area we found that both sides of the river are extensively farmed and fenced.  I suspect that hasn’t changed much since 1948 or earlier. This is important when you consider how the convoy crossed the San Juan River.

 One can’t cross the river at the Pump Canyon entrance because of the high bluffs on the south side of the river. So you have to start moving down the north side of the river for a few miles until you can find a crossing. You may have to make your own road, go through fences, cross private property and ultimately find a place to cross the river. No matter where you cross the river, the bulldozers would be needed to blade an entrance into and out of the river for the crossing to be made. This convoy would have been the major topic of conversation in the valley and I suspect the property owners might have taken umbrage with their fences being cut and roads being cut across their property. Does anyone find it odd that there is no report of such an event ever happening in the area? Unless, of course, it didn’t happen at all. Certainly George Bowra would have reported it in the Aztec Independent Review. More about him later.

So now the convoy is headed up Largo Canyon as described by Mr. Metzger in his report to Mr. Ramsey: “The tightest clearance on Largo Canyon Road is 39 feet above ground level. Largo Canyon would have been the natural choice, since “U.S. HIGHWAY 550 HADN’T BEEN BUILT YET”(emphasis added) . He goes on to say it would be a simple matter to make it to Counselors. If this is the major road to Aztec, where is all the oncoming traffic and what about all the traffic following the convoy? How did they get around a 50 foot wide load? Apparently it was no problem.

Then Mr. Metzger makes one of the most incredible statements in the book when on page 158, he states “Once out of the canyon, traveling across the high desert north of Cuba, through Gallina, Abiquiu and Espanola northward around to the eastern slope of the extinct volcano where Los Alamos is located would be a relatively easy matter”. He obviously doesn’t know the difference between deserts and mountains and he overlooked the fact that you have to turn south at Abiquiu to head towards Espanola. I suspect he and the Ramseys have never even been on this road (SR 96).Before I get back to all the problems he overlooked in the easy drive from Counselors to Los Alamos, I wish you could all see the map of the recovery route as shown on page 160 of the Ramsey book. His route doesn’t even go through Gallina, Abiquiu and Espanola!!!! Instead, it goes from Cuba south to Bernalillo(not named on the map), through Santa Fe (not named on the map) and then on to Los Alamos. Credibility, Credibility, Credibility!

From Counselors, it is approximately 36 miles to where one turns left on NM  96 for the drive over to U.S. 84 so I will just mention a few issues worthy of consideration:

At Counselors, NM 44 goes SE towards Cuba. The load is 50 feet wide. I recently measured the width of old U.S. Highway 85 south of Socorro. This is the road on which I drove to college in 1952. The pavement is 24 feet wide. I suspect that in 1948, NM 44 was about the same width. That means that if the M26 drove down the center of the road, the load would extend 13 feet past the pavement on each side of the road - and this on the main road from Albuquerque to the San Juan Basin. The convoy could easily have been a quarter of mile long, perhaps even with a state police escort to clear the way of traffic. And no one saw it?????????

SR 96 from north of Cuba through Gallina to U.S. Highway 84 was a graded dirt road about 60 miles long. On this route, you pass by the villages of La Jara, Regina, Gallina and Coyote where you then had  to cross the Chama River to reach U.S. 84. These villages were settled between 1818 and 1911 (The Place Names of New Mexico, Second Edition 1998 by Robert Julyan). Surely, someone would have seen and reported this strange looking convoy. How did they cross the Chama River near Abiquiu? No mention is made of this feat.

North of Abiquiu, SR 96 ends at U.S. Highway 84, the major north/south route from Chama and Tierra Amarilla to Santa Fe, Albuquerque and points south. Again, here is a convoy going unnoticed with a 13 foot overhang on each side of the pavement on a major north/south route. The highway would have to be cleared. It seems that someone would have mentioned it.

And how about the town of Espanola? How do you get a convoy with a load 50 feet wide and 86.5 feet long unseen through a town the size of Espanola?     

How do you get from Espanola to Los Alamos? In the late 1940’s, I was returning to New Mexico from visiting relatives in Kansas. My uncle wanted to see Taos, so we drove from Taos to Espanola and my uncle decided to take a shortcut over the Jemez Mountains to Cuba. We went up a very steep and narrow road and ended up at the entrance to Los Alamos where we were turned around and ultimately found our way across the Jemez Mountains to Cuba. Remembering this steep and narrow road up to Los Alamos, I talked to the Los Alamos Historical Society, related my story to them about my trip with my uncle up the steep road and I asked them if, in 1948, it would have been possible for a load 50 feet wide and 86.5 feet long to have made it up that road. The answer was definite “No.” I was told that when they ultimately widened the road, the trucks moving the rocks had to backup several times just to negotiate the curves.

 

CONCLUSION

 

This, dear reader, concludes my review of the three books mentioned earlier. When I started this review I was a skeptic, but now, like George Bowra before me, I have not seen anything to convince me that a UFO landed in Hart Canyon. In Mike McClellan’s article (as reprinted on page 213 of the Steinman book,)the following is stated about George Bowra: “Bowra had been in Aztec for 70 years. He ran the paper for 44 years. “Nobody could have gotten in there and out (Hart Canyon) without attracting a lot of attention…Bowra stated emphatically that the roads have never been cordoned by anyone. He became interested enough in the story to speak with what he estimates to be over 100 people…None of them recalls the UFO landing or subsequent military movement…”.

Mr. Ramsey relied in a large part on his interviews with Mr. Noland, Mr. Farley. Mr. Riggs and Mr. Hernandez. I don’t doubt their veracity,  but I certainly do question their memories. I have already given my opinion on some of Mr. Ramsey’s research, particularly the highway routing in northwest New Mexico and his lack of detail on how the disc could have been moved. When Mr. Steinman placed Blanco on the banks of the Animas River, he lost credibility with me immediately.

 It is my intent to give credit to everyone whose work I have used. If I overlooked someone, I apologize. I have not used any UFO sites or books other than those I have mentioned. My conclusions are my own. I would encourage everyone to buy and read the three books I have here reviewed and draw your own conclusions about what did or did not happen in Hart Canyon. I would love to hear rebuttals from Mr. Ramsey, Mr. Steinman and Dr. Friedman about my review of their work. I am sorry I never had the opportunity to challenge them during the Aztec UFO Symposiums but I do thank them for helping raise money for the new Aztec Library. It is a far cry from the old one room Altrurian Library where I gained my love of reading. 

If I were to give an overall opinion of the three books I have just reviewed, I would have to quote one of my favorite college professors, Dr.. Claude Dove who would describe something questionable as “PIFFLE, PURE DAMN PIFFLE”. 

I could not close without noting that I have seen three UFO’s but they were just that -- unidentified flying objects. The first one I saw was in the late 1940’s. It was later reported to be a weather balloon. In the mid-1990’s, my wife and I were camped at Snow Lake in the Gila National Forest of SW New Mexico. Well after dark, I pointed out to her what I thought was a satellite moving from east to west in the night sky but when it was directly overhead, it made an abrupt left turn and headed straight south. I had never seen a satellite do that before. The other sighting looked like a hot air balloon on fire moving at low level from east to west. It was a short distance north of our house but then it abruptly turned north and disappeared in the distance. Dear Reader, your guess is as good as mine.

 

POSTSCRIPT

 

Since finishing my review of the three books about the alleged Aztec flying saucer, I decided to check the internet to see what information was there about UFO’s. It appears there has developed quite a “cottage industry” about UFO’s. This industry seems to feed on itself. I think Frank Scully did a great job of describing this cottage industry, although in a different context when he said “Men stay with what they believe, or fight for buggy whips in an era of automobiles for the simple reason that their livelihoods are all tied up in buggy whips”.

A Mr. Kevin Randle, in a May 30, 2012 posted on the internet, had two very interesting comments about the Ramsey book. As noted in the Ramsey book, The Aztec Incident - Recovery at Hart Canyon, Mr. Ramsey relied quite heavily on information he obtained for Doug Noland and Virgil Riggs. Mr. Randle notes that “Doug Noland tells a robust tale, but is slightly contaminated because he approached William Steinman who wrote about the Aztec Crash in the mid-1980’s”. He also notes that Mr. Riggs relied on a story about the Aztec Crash that was told to him by a Donald “Sam” Bass who was in the Air Force with Mr. Riggs.

According to Mr. Ramsey, his research revealed that Sam Bass had been killed in a hit-and-run accident while in the Air Force in Vietnam. On the other hand, Mr. Randle notes “No one named Bass was killed by a hit-and-run driver in Vietnam and no one who served in the Air Force named Bass died in Vietnam. Clearly, the story told to the Ramsey’s was untrue”.

If Mr. Randle is correct in what he reported, then I think the veracity of both Mr. Noland and Mr. Riggs must be questioned.

Monte Shriver

Las Cruces, NM
2012