Wednesday, April 14, 2021

Did Herbert Dick Lie about Being on the Plains of San Agustin?


A fellow identifying himself as Lemurian is often commenting here but most of those comments don’t see the light of day. That’s because they’re just nasty and often appended to the wrong posting. It’s as if he just clicks on one and then writes whatever moves him regardless of the topic. I delete them because they are nasty and inappropriate. Recently, however, he did provide a comment that wasn’t nasty, only inappropriate. He suggested that we all access a website that contained information about the Barney Barnett aspect of the Roswell case. You can access that story here:

While the story is interesting, it is also somewhat misleading, and it is filled with misinformation. Please note here that I said “Misinformation,” rather than “Disinformation.” There is a difference.

Rather than go through this one segment at a time, I’ll just make a few general comments. First, there are no other first-hand witnesses to the Barnett tale. The archaeologists have never been found and the Gerald Anderson story, sometimes used to bolster the case, is a hoax. Anderson is little more than a footnote in the overall picture. He destroyed his own credibility by lying about his Naval career and forging a number of documents. For those interested you can read about it here (You’ll need to scroll down a bit to find the relevant segment:

I spoke with Fleck Danley, who was instrumental in providing a date for the Plains of San Agustin crash that Barnett had discussed. It was clear to me, that Danley had no real idea of when the alleged discussion with Barnett took place. Danley was pushed into agreeing with the July 1947 date by Bill Moore so that there would be a tale of alien bodies for his book, The Roswell Incident. Without Barnett, they had only stories of strange metal and the Army’s efforts to recover the debris and change the narrative.

Barnett’s wife, Ruth, kept a diary for 1947. It was, apparently, the only year in which she did that. I was able to obtain the diary from Alice Knight, Barnett’s niece, so that we might copy it. There is no mention of any event on the Plains that suggest Barnett was involved in anything unusual or strange. In fact, the only date in the diary that works, meaning that Barnett was out of his office and over in the area of the Plains to see the crashed saucer is on July 2, 1947. If we follow the conventional wisdom, that is a day too early because the Roswell crash took place later.

Although the counterargument is that Barnett wouldn’t have shared this startling information with his wife so we wouldn’t read about in the diary, there are no indications of anything unusual happening at the time. Barney didn’t come home upset, didn’t suggest anything out of the ordinary. Just that he’d been out of the office that day. Later, however, we see that Barnett told many people the story of crash including friends and family. You can read about this aspect of the case in Roswell in the 21st Century. I will note here that no one has ever found a document in which any of that was discussed. You would think that someone would have written something that would provide a little corroboration in the proper time frame. Instead, all we have are memories that were decades old when they were finally discussed and Barnett had been dead for those decades.

There is one interesting point here. Although nearly everyone who discusses the story places it on the Plains of San Agustin, in reality, according to Jean Maltais, Barnett’s description was somewhat vague about the location. She only mentioned “the flats,” which could mean any number of places in New Mexico. Most ignore this minor glitch in the tale to focus on the Plains.

But let’s get to the meat of this claim. Tony Bragalia wrote about Dr. Herbert Dick, “While considering various archaeologists, researchers uncovered Harvard-trained Dr Herbert Dick. Dick was a noted archaeologist who passed away in 1992. Some years before his death however, he was located and questioned. Dick categorically denied that he had ever worked around the Plains of San Augustin region in July of 1947 (highlight added). Dick had told researchers he had not been there, telling one of them, "If I knew anything I would have told you." One of his dig party, Jeff Morris, also denied it. These denials were reported in early 1990's issues of the publication IUR – International UFO Reporter and elsewhere.”

Much of this is inaccurate. I did talk to Herbert Dick about this and rather than “categorically [denying] that he had ever worked about the Plains of San Augustin (sic),” the truth is that he wasn’t sure exactly when he arrived there in July 1947. What he denied was that he had seen any sort of a UFO crash retrieval operation on the Plains. This was not reported in the IUR as claimed.

Dick told me (not one of them) that if he knew anything about this, he’d tell me. What is important here that another member of his team denied that “it,” meaning, here, I suppose, that they had seen nothing suggesting a flying saucer crash. This was not reported in the IUR.

Although Bragalia wrote, “It turns out though that Dick had lied [highlight added] to these researchers when he was interviewed by them. In 2006 a revealing letter was uncovered by researcher Art Campbell. Campbell has been active in the UFO field for decades, including with NICAP. He is the author of "UFO Crash at San Augustin" and maintains the UFO Crash Book website. The documents that he discovered confirm that Dick had not told the truth. Dick was in fact at the Plains at the very time that he said that he was not.” As we have seen, Dick had told me he was on the Plains in July 1947, he just wasn’t sure exactly when he arrived.

Bragalia went even further, when he wrote, “A thorough search of records finds that no other group of archaeologists were working on the Plains in early July of 1947 except Herbert Dick and party – and Dick lied that [highlight added] he was even there. Lies are used [highlight added] to cover up the truth by those who wish to evade it. To have ever spoken of the event, Dick may have felt that he could have risked a security breach, his own professional advancement, future professional credibility, award of grant monies or – later in life – damage to his impressive professional legacy.”

But Dick didn’t lie. In an interview I conducted on June 23, 1991, Dick told me that he had worked in the area called Bat Cave on the southeastern edge of the Plains in 1947. He just wasn’t sure exactly when he arrived. The letters and notes found by Art Campbell, showed that he had arrived in time to have seen the crash, had it taken place on July 2, and would have been in a position to see the recovery operation in the days that followed, had there been one.

Don Schmitt at one of the alleged Plains of San Agustin crash sites. The Bat Cave
is across the Plains in the mountains seen behind Don.

I provided this information to Stan Friedman, telling him that Dick had been at the Bat Cave on July 1. Friedman’s response? He said we didn’t know how far back in the cave they were working and we didn’t know which way the cave faced. I told him that it faced to the west and that they wouldn’t be very deep because they were researching human habitation. Humans would have been very close to the mouth of the cave because to move in deeper would have put them in darkness. Besides, according to the information, the only level spot for camping was about a hundred yards from the mouth of the cave. They had a panoramic view of the whole of the Plains and the alleged crash site in the days prior to that alleged crash and of the recovery operation had there been one.

The point is that Bragalia’s speculations about Dick are not borne out in the interview I conducted with the man. According to Bragalia himself, he was using information provided by Campbell and the source mentioned, the International UFO Reporter, does not contain this information. Instead, it comes from Art Campbell’s analysis of the situation which is highly speculative. Campbell mentioned a paper found in The Magdalena Fact Book. This was a document that I created for the single meeting in Chicago to discuss the problems with the Plains of San Agustin tale. The book was created for the meeting, there were only five copies and I have one of them. I’m surprised that Campbell had seen a copy of it and can only guess that it was Friedman who showed it to him.

The real point here is that the information about Dick’s involvement, that he lied repeatedly about what he was doing and where he was, is inaccurate. Dick wasn’t confused. He had forgotten the exact date he arrived. He was quite candid in his conversation with me about where he was and what he was doing. What Dick’s statements do, corroborated by the documentation from by Campbell, is destroy the remaining threads of the Gerald Anderson claims of what he had seen on the Plains, and calls into question that Barnett saw anything there in the summer of 1947.

Dick denied the involvement because there was no involvement. I can say this with confidence because I talked to the man. I don’t have to rely on what others have said or written. I have the first-hand source, that trumps all the second and third-hand reports and all the speculation that permeates Bragalia’s article.

Bragalia’s analysis here is more of the same sort of over-the-top rhetoric we’ve seen before. He has taken some poorly researched information and created a scenario in his mind that fits into his theory. He writes in a fashion that suggests he knows what is going on, but a careful reading and an examination of all the facts, including my interview with Dick, show the flaws in his theory. He even cites a source that doesn’t exist.

One more thing for those of you of a conspiratorial mindset. According to Dick, he knew Winfred Buskirk (Anderson’s archaeologist on the Plains) in the 1940s. Since both were working on their PhDs at the time, and both were in New Mexico (well, Buskirk was working in Arizona in the summer of 1947, he lived in Albuquerque), it is not surprising. I just thought I’d mention it to stir the pot and before someone creates another whole scenario about government secrecy and lying anthropologists.


Lemurian said...´re only envious because Stanton Friedman, Don Berliner and others found a second Crashsite and a Witness for a Crahssite with a crashed flying Disk and Aliens.
You, Don Smitt and Tom Carrey denies the Crash in the Plains of San Agustin only because you all can't get the Glory for it, you all can only admit the Foster Debris Field and that´s wears you down that you did not succeed. And that´s make you angry and evil, and then you spread lies about all the others who had more success.

That´s the Truth and nothing else!

- best regards from Germany, Michael Lemurian

John Steiger said...

Thank goodness Ruth Barnett kept a diary in that singularly important year! Her undertaking that simple daily task changes our historical view.

Nitram said...

Michael Lemurian wrote:

"You, Don Smitt and Tom Carrey denies the Crash in the Plains of San Agustin only because you all can't get the Glory for it, you all can only admit the Foster Debris Field and that´s wears you down that you did not succeed. And that´s make you angry and evil, and then you spread lies about all the others who had more success."

Dr Randle can speak for himself, of course, but I have no idea why you think Kevin has not been successful - none of the people you mention have "solved" the Roswell event?
Perhaps you can tell us a bit more about your involvement in the Roswell case - you are obviously a Stan Friedman fan?

Following your logic, it would appear that Stan must have been quite angry too, since Kevin interviewed Frankie Rowe first and she handled some of the material...

Obviously there is no 100% agreement on the "other sites" although everyone (except CDA) agrees that something crashed on the Foster ranch...


Some Guy on the Innernets said...

P.S. I get a strong whiff of Michael Horn in the ramblings of Lemurian, though that may be a disservice to the latter.

Lemurian said...

@John Steiger

TZhank goodness that we know that the Army Air Force told to Barnett never to say a word about the UFO Crash in the Plains. This contains also nothing write down anything. I dont understand why you Guys constantly search in Diaries when is clear what the Army Air Force said to Barnett and also to Marcel. *shaking head* *rolleyes*

Lemurian said...


No i´m not a Stanton Friedman Fan, i know that there´s a long History of Disputes of the several Roswell Researcher and nobody of them has covered himself with fame.

I´m very interestet in Crash Retrievals and Roswell & Co. are the best documented. I just believe the Witnesses and i think Crash Retrievals are an very important Key for the Disclosure Movement because we need Hardware to prove that there´s an alien Presence on Earth. Scientists should have access to all of that, to the crashed UFOs and the dead Aliens. I think without that there will never be a real Disclosure.
And we need all that to save the World from climate Change and so, otherwise the Humankind will be in 100 or 150 Years to be extinct.

But there other problems, too! Wars, poverty, hunger - all that can we change with the UFO-Technologies and that´s the reason why we need a Disclosure and the Hardware from the Crash retrievals. That´s the reason why i´m so persistent in this Topic.

John Steiger said...

Lemurian: Thank goodness we know that, as you contend, everyone involved with the Roswell UFO crash never said or wrote a word about a UFO crash on the Plains, EXCEPT for the simple fact that this is NOT the case -- NOT THE CASE AT ALL!

Only Barney Barnett stands as a witness to such an alleged crash on the Plains of San Agustin.

No one else.

And he is refuted by his own wife's diary, which is historical evidence. Plus no one else to my knowledge that was present on the Plains in the summer of 1947 supports Mr. Barnett's contention that such a UFO crash occurred.

Lemurian said...

Aztec UFO Crash: Yes It Happened:

aujax said...

uh, because people dont always do what theyre told.

Unknown said...

I’m noticing the same information from gerald anderson and kids at ariel school. Telepathic communication with images and feelings, short 4ft creatures, skin tight dark suits, large eyes. Even glen davis gives same description, regarding roswell and a nurses description.

KRandle said...

Well, I don't know who Glen Davis is unless, of course, you are talking about the discredited testimony of Glenn Dennis. And Gerald Anderson made up his tale of being on the Plains of San Agustin, so I don't think you would want to use him as a source. Just thought I would mention it.