Thursday, November 17, 2016

Chasing Footnotes -The Socorro Case


As anyone who visits here regularly, you know that I chase footnotes. I sometimes try to find specific instances to make the case, but when I search without a known destination, it seems to be an impossible task. Instead, I find the bad footnotes by accident. This is just something that cannot be forced.

Lonnie Zamora
As you all also know, I have been looking into the symbol that Lonnie Zamora reported seeing on the side of the landed UFO. That research has bled into other areas, including the idea that other members of the Socorro Police Department or the New Mexico State Police saw the same object as Zamora. In the Unidentified Flying Objects Briefing Document: The Best Available Evidence compiled by Don Berliner, Marie Galbraith and Antonio Huneeus and “presented” by CUFOS, FUFOR and MUFON, in December, 1995, I read the short segment on the Socorro case. They wrote, “At this time, Zamora was joined by a police sergeant [Chavez] who watched the craft fly away into the distance.”

This is an argument, that Chavez saw the object, that has been made here by David Rudiak and one that Ray Stanford as well as Ben Moss and Tony Angiola shared during the interviews on my X-Zone Broadcast Network radio show. The links can be found in the postings for those programs. It is not this argument, that Chavez saw the object, which I’m concerned with here, but with the footnote about where this information was found or where it could be verified. According to Berliner, Galbraith and Hunees, this was a “Written statement by Lonnie Zamora to Project Blue Book, 1964; reprinted in Steiger, Brad, ed. Project Blue Book, ibid.”

In the last weeks I have been through the Blue Book files several times. I have discussed this idea of other police witnesses, both privately with a number of people and publicly on this blog. I have a copy of Steiger’s book and a complete copy of the Blue Book file on the case. Nowhere in the statement by Zamora does it suggest that the police sergeant arrived in time to see the UFO as it disappeared in the distance. In fact, Zamora in that statement said:

As I was calling Nep [a police radio operator], I could still see the object. The object seemed to lift up slowly, and to “get small” in the distance very fast. It seemed to just clear Box Canyon or Six Mile Canyon mountain. It disappeared as it went over the mountains. It had no flame whatsoever as it was traveling over the ground and made no smoke or noise…

Zamora said that he then went down to where the craft had landed and saw that one of the bushes was still smoking. He then said:

Gave directions to Nep Lopez at radio and to Sgt. M.S. Chavez to get there. Went down to where the object was (had been), and I noted the bush was burning in several places. At that time, I heard Sgt. Chavez calling me on radio for my location, and I returned to my car, told him he was looking at me. Then Sgt. Chavez came up and asked me what the trouble was, because I was sweating and he told me I was white, very pale. I asked the Sergeant to see what I saw, and that was the burning bush. Then Sgt. Chavez and I went to the spot, and Sgt. Chavez pointed out the tracks.

It is clear from Zamora’s statement in the Blue Book files and in Steiger’s book, that Chavez didn’t arrive until after the UFO had disappeared in the distance. Now we really don’t have to go through the arguments again about how Chavez did arrive in time to see it in the sky. What I’m saying here is that the sources quoted for the information do not support that idea. We can argue about other sources, but in this very limited case, those additional sources are irrelevant because they weren’t cited. The sources quoted do not support the statement, and that is all that is relevant here.

5 comments:

David Rudiak said...

I know of two instances where Zamora was quoted saying that Chavez got there in time to possibly see the object disappearing in the distance, as I noted on your blog only 3 weeks ago. First his interview with Walter Shrode of KSRC within days (maybe the next day):

http://www.roswellproof.com/Socorro/Socorro_Zamora_interview.html

SHRODE: About ten minutes to six. [when it happened] And you did place a call then to Sgt. Chavez of the State Police to come on out and help you with the investigation?

ZAMORA: From the time I saw this object, which I didn’t know what it was, I placed the call to Sgt. Chavez of the State Police, called him to come out there and help me on this. And he said, “Yes, I’ll be right there, in about two minutes.”

SHRODE: And he arrived just about two or three minutes after the object had taken off and left.

ZAMORA: Well, the object was still about a couple of moments (?) up there when he arrived.

And a year later, in retrospective article (Hobbes NM News-Sun, Apr. 23, 1965):

"Zamora said he called for help and State Police Sgt. Sam Chavez was on the scene within two minutes. By then the UFO was flying off toward the mountains. 'If he (Chavez) had just paid attention he would have seen it,' Zamora said.

In both statements directly from Zamora, Chavez WAS in a position to have seen it (from previous mesa where Zamora first spotted object from a distance)), whether he did or not. And it took him only about two minutes to get there from the time Zamora first called him (from previous mesa when Zamora first saw object).

I have previously argued while this doesn’t prove Chavez saw anything, Zamora clearly indicated it was possible for Chavez to have done so since he got there before the object completely disappeared. This supported Ray Stanford’s statements that all Socorro police he talked to said Chavez DID see the object off in the distance.

These statements also support Chavez got to the scene very quickly, within about 2 minutes. I have also argued that this was perfectly possible if Chavez was nearby. The first mesa top was only about 1/3 mile from the main highway. I have been there and measured it, plus this can all be shown using tools like Google Earth.

KRandle said...

David =

I said, twice, this was not about Chavez arriving in time to see the object in the sky, but about the quote that said he did and the sources of the information for that quote. Both sources they cited do not support that statement. That was the point here. I didn't want this to devolve into an argument that has been made in other posts.

But since you say, "These statements also support Chavez got to the scene very quickly, within about 2 minutes. I have also argued that this was perfectly possible if Chavez was nearby," I will note that Coral Lorenzen said that Chavez was at the police station fingerprinting a suspect. That gives us a precise location and an activity that couldn't be abandoned without securing the assistance of another officer...

But, as I said in the post and say again here, this was about the inaccurate source cited in the footnote and not about if Chavez saw the craft.

David Rudiak said...

And my point is that while Zamora did not directly say Chavez did see the craft just before it faded out in the distance, he DID say Chavez COULD have seen it because he did arrive in time. This would support what Ray Stanford said other police he spoke to told him, that Chavez told them he had seen it far in the distance just before it disappeared.

Since Chavez himself never admitted to seeing anything either publicly or internally to various investigators, this was never documented. However, Zamora's public statements about Chavez being there in time ARE documented. It therefore isn't much of a stretch that he could have seen it, but chose not to talk about it except to fellow police.

And my point is that while Zamora did not directly say Chavez did see the craft just before it faded out in the distance, he DID say Chavez COULD have seen it because he did arrive in time. This would support what Ray Stanford said other police he spoke to told him, that Chavez told them he had seen it far in the distance just before it disappeared.

Since Chavez himself never admitted to seeing anything either publicly or internally to various investigators, this was never documented. However, Zamora's public statements about Chavez being there in time ARE documented. It therefore isn't much of a stretch that he could have seen it, but chose not to talk about it except to fellow police.

What I am arguing is plausibility vs. impossibility. If Chavez had arrived after the object had disappeared, then obviously it would be impossible. But given what Zamora said, it is entirely possible, even plausible, that Chavez did see the object. Chavez being 10 miles away would be proof he couldn't have seen anything. But Chavez only one mile away makes it quite possible that if he sped there with sirens blazing, he could have got there in time to have just witnessed something.

For various reasons, witnesses to anything may withhold various details, thus it never gets documented. But being undocumented is not a proof in itself that something didn't happen. Other evidence needs to be considered, such as what Zamora said or what other police told Ray Stanford.

KRandle said...

David -

I said in the original post that the question about Chavez seeing the craft was irrelevant. I said it in the last comment to you. I now say it for the third and final time, that question is irrelevant. The point is that the footnote cited as documentation for Chavez seeing the object does not take you there and, in fact, tells you the exact opposite. That was the point, the whole point and the only point.

I will say that according to Coral Lorenzen, Chavez was fingerprinting a prisoner when called out by Zamora. Since Zamora was trying to keep it quiet, meaning he didn't want others to come out, it is exceedingly doubtful that Chavez ran with sirens and lights.

This discussion is now closed. Any more arguments about what Chavez saw or didn't see will not be posted here, on this particular article. If someone wishes to comment on the original point, that's fine, but no more discussion of what Chavez saw or didn't see.

Brian Bell said...

According to Berliner, Galbraith and Hunees, this was a “Written statement by Lonnie Zamora to Project Blue Book, 1964; reprinted in Steiger, Brad, ed. Project Blue Book, ibid.”

What would be their reason for stating there was a written statement about Chavez being there when he wasn't, and when no written statement by Zamora exists?

Just bad follow-up on rumors or a deliberate attempt at falsifying information?

I wonder.