Because
of the latest controversy surrounding the Travis Walton abduction, I reached
out to Mike Rogers, who was there when the UFO was seen. He had been an
important voice in the sighting report for more than four decades. You can
listen to my interview with him here:
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/46433727
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/46434231
We
spent the first interview discussing the whole story from the moment that
Rogers and Walton saw the UFO and the men with them, Steve Pierce, Allen Dalis,
John Goulette, Ken Peterson, and Dwayne Smith, until they returned to look for
Walton after the abduction. It is the story as it has been told many times but
here, we hear it from one of the men who was there in 1975. We covered the
search for Walton and the law enforcement reaction to the story. I wanted to
cover all this for everyone to have, well, the proper perspective on this
classic UFO case.
I
will note here, because Rogers said it several times, that no one saw Walton
abducted. They all saw the craft, but they had fled after Walton had been
struck by the beam. Rogers said that he hadn’t seen the beam, but had seen
Walton flying through the air.
As
the hour expired, we talked about the lie detector tests. Rogers said something
about a first test in California but he didn’t know the results or the details.
There was a second test, apparently arranged by Jim and Coral Lorenzen of APRO
for those at the National Enquirer, which Walton failed. Rogers wasn’t
clear if this was the California test, or there had been an earlier test. I
suspect that they are the same or the one in California never happened.
We
came back to the lie detector tests. Walton passed a second one (third?)
arranged by the Lorenzens. It seems they rejected the first test(s) because
they had been given too soon after Walton’s return. That his shock at the
events might have skewed the results and frankly, I’m willing to accept that
explanation. The Lorenzens are to be faulted because they denied the first
failed test until Philip Klass learned about it. This, of course, is not a
reflection on Walton.
In
1993, Jerry Black, a somewhat disinterested third party, arranged still another
lie detector test for Walton. This one seems to have been conducted without a
particular bias, and Walton passed it.
We
stayed with the lie detector test question a little longer. A number of years
ago, Walton appeared on a show called, Moment of Truth. He was asked if
he had been abducted by a UFO and he answered, “Yes.” The polygrapher
determined that his answer was a lie.
According
to Rogers, Steve Pierce, who was there, at the taping of the show, changed his
mind about the Walton abduction. In fact, and according to Rogers, of all the
men who were there in 1975, apparently only John Goulette still believes that
abduction part of the story. I must note here that two of the men who were
there in 1975 have since died.
I
asked Rogers his reaction to that test but he kept talking about the money that
Walton and others had earned at the show. The answer I finally got was that
Rogers believed the UFO sighting because he had been there and seen the UFO,
but he said, again, that no one actually saw Walton abducted.
It
had seemed, for years, that the men presented a solid front, with no one
breaking ranks. Steve Pierce had been pressed by Philip Klass to admit it was a
hoax for ten thousand dollars. Pierce’s friends suggested that if he took the
money, he would be bruised and he’d spend it alone (Yes, there is a quote to
that effect in the interview). I saw that as something of a threat. I mentioned
pressure from both sides to get Pierce to do what they wanted. You can read my
interview with Pierce that covers this point here:
Steve Pierce
http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2012/07/steve-pierce-and-travis-walton.html
http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2012/03/philip-klass-travis-walton-and-steve.html
And
if you scroll down in the following story, you’ll find a little additional
information. You can read it here:
http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2012/09/project-aquarius-steve-pierce-and-other.html
We
also talked about the transcript going around in which Rogers is quoted as
saying that the story was a hoax. I asked about this and Rogers said that he
never said anything like that. He said that the audio interview he’d had with
Ryan Gordon had been manipulated to change the meaning. I have not heard the
interview but have seen the transcript. That’s something that Rogers and Gordon
will have to work out.
What
comes out of these two hours with Mike Rogers is that the once solid wall for
the Walton abduction is not as solid as it once was. Rogers was somewhat evasive
when I asked specific questions about the reality of the abduction and if he
believed that Walton had been abducted. He repeated that he had seen the UFO
but that no one saw Walton abducted. Is there something that he’s not telling us?
You can, quite naturally, listen to the interview and decide for yourself but I
will say, this turned somewhat troubling for me.
Next
up is Robert Sheaffer. We’ll talk about UFO skepticism and maybe touch his
opinion of the Walton abduction.
11 comments:
Where to start with this!!!
Quite why Kevin has begun beating the drum that there is some kind of change in the narrative when it has been common knowledge, from the absolute start, that no one actually saw the abduction (ie...Walton being lifted into the craft), is beyond me!
In these two interviews, Roger's story stays exactly the same as it always was....as he emphasises in part 2... After he "hit the gas" he has no idea what happened to Walton after that!
They all saw the craft. "It was awesome".
They all agree Walton got very close to the craft.
Some saw him hit by a beam of light...Rogers only saw him "flying through the air" (because at the exact moment before, his head was turned the other way.)
They all agree they panicked and Rogers "hit the gas".
They got about 1/4 mile away before Rogers felt guilty and stopped.
They all got out of the vehicle...through the trees they could see the light of the UFO, it moved and flew off out of view.
When they got back to the place Walton last was...he was gone.
Considering everything that had happened up to that point and considering that, in this very remote place, Walton was no longer there... is it not so difficult to believe that Walton had gone with the UFO?
Are we to believe that after Walton had been "knocked flying" (with or without a light beam)...and his mates had scarpered...in those 15 minutes before his mates returned he concocted this idea to disappear into the woods for a few days and then pretend he was an alien abductee?
The points made about Walton flunking lie detector tests, then passing them, then flunking them...then passing them. etc...perfectly illustrates why courts of law don't use them as evidence.
It's a pseudo science
It has the same weight of reliability as those drips who reckon they can accurately tell if someone is lying if they happen to scratch their left ear when saying something (I must be permanently lying because I'm forever scratching my ears, nose, arse, etc)...or these "statement analysis" clowns who reckon they know if someone has murdered someone if they speak about them in the present tense or the past tense, blah blah blah.
Again, in part 1, the question over Steve Pierce considering taking the 10000 dollar bribe...
Rogers made it very clear that Pierce was "dirt poor".
Kevin's follow up question should have been, "Did Pierce consider taking the bribe because he knew the abduction story was a fake...or because he was "dirt poor" and would have said anything to get the money?"
If I were Rogers, and I thought that Pierce was going to undermine my story (which Rogers clearly considered to be the truth) just to pocket $10000...then I'd want to "bruise" him too!
Let's not forget that calling Walton a liar is the same as calling Rogers (and the rest) liars too.
It seems clear that Rogers still considers this to be an alien event. He heavily suggests this, in around time stamp 49:00, when he says the aliens returned Walton not long after the police told Roger's that (4 of them) had passed the initial lie detector test.
If Roger's believed they had returned him, then doesn't that mean they must have, firstly, abducted him?
What kind of debunker or honorable person was this guy to offer someone $ 10 K to narrate what he wanted a witness to say for self serving purposes...whatever the purposes were?Sounds like a lack of class..no pun intended
KR..."Next up is Robert Sheaffer. We’ll talk about UFO skepticism and maybe touch his opinion of the Walton abduction."
Maybe one question to Robert Sheaffer would be..."By the tone of the Roger's interview and his denial, time and again in the 2nd part of the interview, that he was part of a hoax...then Walton must have hoaxed Rogers too.
If this is the case, and considering that none of the crew ever denied that the UFO was real...and generally speaking, they all agree on what happened between first spotting the UFO and them driving away from the site...then at what point did Walton decide to hoax his mates?
Let's look at the timeline here.
1. Rogers said that after he saw Walton get knocked flying, he hit the gas.
2. He drove off at a vast rate of knots, slightly damaging his vehicle in his rush to scarper.
3.He drove about a quarter of a mile before stopping.
4. They ALL got out of the vehicle, congregated in front of the headlights and had a conflab about what they had just seen and if it was right to leave Walton to his fate.
5. Even though the forestry was dense, they could still just manage to see the UFO lights, see it lift off and fly off (I think he said toward the North)
6. They decide to go back to Walton, arriving approximately 15 minutes after leaving him.
I'd say that after seeing the UFO zoom off and going back to Walton, it would be generous to say it would have taken them only about 5 minutes to get back.
Are we to believe that despite everything that had happened to Walton (probably seeing the most amazing thing he had ever seen in his life...and being sent flying by it...)...that Walton watched the UFO fly away and in those 5 minutes between the UFO going and his workmates returning, he had the presence of mind to come up with this idea of hiding from his workmates and disappearing into the forest for 4 or 5 days (with no supplies) and claiming the UFO took him?
I don't know about you, but after a hard days graft chopping down trees till after sunset...and being knocked over by a flying saucer...I'd just want to go home, have me dinner and have a nice hot bath.
I had a lengthy (many weeks, many emails) correspondence with Steve Pierce in July-August of this year. He is very defensive of the idea he was duped, as you might expect, and harbors anger about the case for other reasons. However, in conclusion he did tell me these two things: that he doesn't believe Mike took the guys back to the same spot that night to search for Travis (which supports the Gentry Tower hoax theory); and that "I always knew something wasn't right about that night the night it happened."
I also had a marathon Facebook conversation with John Goulette, who doesn't believe the five in the truck were hoaxed, but he inadvertently dropped information that again supports the Gentry Tower theory.
Mr Young: The main problem with the story is how Mr Rogers keeps emphasizing about how no one saw Mr Walton get abducted. Then you have the recorded phone call in which Mr Rogers hems and haws but does state the whole thing might be a hoax.
Then there is the theory of how it was hoaxed by using a lit fire tower at night which could appear like a UFO to those as it was partially hidden by the trees. I still have a lot of questions as to how it was hoaxed since there would have to have been someone helping out Mr Walton. I believe it was his brother but there are those who claim he was out of town. Mr Walton may have stayed in the small apartment the rangers used at the tower.
As for the actual scene of the event, there is questions as to where it actually was. The theory states when Mr Rogers drove the other men back to search for Mr Travis, he drove them to a different location. It was dark outside so they probably couldn't tell it was a different area. Then again, they did believe they saw a UFO.
Mike Rogers did pass the lie detector test in which he says yes to having seen a UFO.
This case was never that strong to begin with so any cracks in it can bring it all down. I do hope Mr Randle interviews Ryan Gordon who is the author of the above theory so people can decide for themselves.
Paul -
I believe you have missed the nuance of the interview. True, Mike Rogers has said for years that no one saw Travis Walton abducted, but it was only recently that this became an important point. But listen to his answers to my questions. It would have been very easy for him to answer in the positive to many of them but he did not.
I'm not saying the case is a hoax (though many others are now saying that). I'm just saying that some red flags have been raised in the last few months...
Oh, if the believers are going to trot out the lie detector tests that are positive as proof of the tale, then the other side can certainly point out that there were failures along the line. We all know that lie detectors are not 100% reliable. If they were, then we'd need no courts... but they can provide important clues about this case.
And you might want to read my interviews with Steve Pierce. It could answer some of your questions.
Charlie,
What information did he drop that supports the Tower theory? I might not be remembering it right, but I thought the search parties for Watson included dogs. I could see the Tower theory as being more credible if this was not the case. It can be easy to hide from humans, even search and rescue, if one is so inclined. But, dogs are a different story. Has anyone provided topographic maps showing the area of the Tower and the area(s) the search and rescue teams covered?
Adam, the official "abduction site" is a quarter-mile south of the worksite in Turkey Springs. They should've seen the UFO after a couple of minutes after leaving the worksite. But Goulette admitted that it was "5, 10 or 15" minutes driving before they saw it. Mike Rogers also said 15 minutes in an interview. Travis in his book and in interviews is careful not to specify.
There may have been dogs used in the search but there's no good contemporaneous evidence for this. In Travis's book he says his brother and Mike demanded dogs but didn't get them. The search took place in a 2.5 mile radius around Turkey Springs. Gentry Tower is almost 5 miles away. That area wasn't searched.
My website has all the maps you need if you're interested in getting into the nuts and bolts of the case:
https://threedollarkit.weebly.com/travis-walton.html
Kevin: First, these interviews with Mike Rogers are both wonderfully informative and entertaining. Thank you very much for having him on as your guest, and for two shows too!
Paul Young: Very well stated. I agree with your well-reasoned, sensible assessments. Thank you so much for including them here.
***
Actually, all of these comments above are quite interesting and informative. But one thing I would like to add, and which should not be overlooked, is the personal relationships among the witnesses to this nearly fifty (50) year-old event.
Please let's not overlook that Mike Rogers and Travis Walton are brothers-in-law as Travis is married to Mike's sister Dana, but they have been estranged as a couple for many years.
In addition, Travis and Dana purportedly have children to whom Mike is the uncle. And they have all lived together in the relatively small towns of Snowflake and Show Low, AZ, and likely know each other's business ... This is a recipe for infighting even without being at the center of one of the major alleged alien abduction cases in UFO history.
Throw in the alien abduction and how it and its controversy have ballooned over the years, along with the family squabbles, the money and potential money (including Klass's alleged bribe) to be made from the case, and just the ongoing nature of this near half-century old event being a defining point for so many lives here, and we're getting people who are pretty well sick of it. I'm frankly amazed that things aren't a whole lot worse than they are here.
Anyway, I believe all this matters and detracts from a quite interesting UFO encounter. In order to properly assess it though, we can't take just these late developing events and make them the centerpieces of the case. At least not without going back over the WHOLE case history -- all the accumulated evidence (and to a lesser extent, witness opinions) in making an assessment as to what truly occurred to Travis Walton in November of 1975.
Kevin and RedTornado2008... I think that, with this incident, we sometimes forget about the "elephant in the room"...ie; the flying saucer itself.
Kevin might think Rogers was not positive enough on some of his questions and that Pierce has wavered on his opinion concerning the abduction ...but to my knowledge, all are adamant that the UFO was there.
Even if Walton, with cooperation from Rogers and his brother, had convinced the rest of the crew that Walton had been abducted...we are still left with this landed flying saucer.
In the moments before he saw Walton flying through the air (he had physically left the ground then landed on his back...which is a pretty good stunt in itself) ) Rogers describes (at around time-stamp 18:00, first interview) the woods being lit up; "A blue green colour"..."it was brighter than day, it lit up the woods",
Rogers also described that just as they decided to get the hell away, the UFO made a noise that rumbled enough that you could feel it!
When they had their conflab in the headlights of their vehicle, (1/8th to 1/4th a mile distance) through the density of the forest they could still see the lights [of the UFO]...Rogers,Gillette and Pierce saw this light lift up and "streak off to the North East"
If this was some hoax that Walton had concocted (with or without Rogers cooperation) then this is even better and more dramatic than the hoax that has been suggested was played on Lonnie Zamora at Socorro! And we all know how daft an explanation that is for the Socorro incident.
Now then...If every one of them was involved in the hoax, if they were all complicit, then OK, I can see the holes in the story but how was such a lighting display, speakers/amps, etc organised in such an unlikely area (a forest) and organised to the degree that the other 4, (and Rogers as well) were hoodwinked into believing it was a real flying saucer? ....And what streaked off to the North East?
.....................
John Steiger... Throw in the alien abduction and how it and its controversy have ballooned over the years, along with the family squabbles, the money and potential money (including Klass's alleged bribe) to be made from the case, and just the ongoing nature of this near half-century old event being a defining point for so many lives here, and we're getting people who are pretty well sick of it. I'm frankly amazed that things aren't a whole lot worse than they are here.
You've absolutely nailed it. If they were all complicit in a hoax then it's amazing that they could hold it together for so long...especially considering there were strained relationships in the camp even before the UFO incident.
This wasn't a "band of brothers"
Another thing John...Two of the crew have died and seemingly didn't think it was necessary for any death bed confessions or to ask forgiveness for living a lie for so many years.
@Kevin, I spent a career in law enforcement interviewing witnesses and suspects. I believe Mike comes across as generally credible. He is very plain speaking and age is beginning to effect his ability to stay focused. But that's okay. The frustration comes in trying to keep him on subject. He definitely has his own agenda and is more motivated and interested in promoting his side of a petty squabble then informing the rest of us on details or answering specific questions.
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