Saturday, November 03, 2018

The Source of the Socorro Symbol?

Just when you thought there would be no more to say about the symbol that Lonnie Zamora saw on the landed UFO near Socorro, New Mexico, a new candidate has entered the competition. This one is from Otis T. Carr, who most of us have never heard of, but who, apparently, in the late 1950s, claimed that he could create a flying saucer and set out to do it.

Carr's billboard announcing his spacecraft.
Carr claimed that he had worked with Nikola Tesla, which, I suppose is an excuse, or a reason for Carr to have slipped off the rails of more conventional science. (Please, no comments about the legitimacy of Tesla, he was a genius, Carr was not.) Carr founded OTC Enterprise, the OTC, are of course, his initials. He hired a business manager and then Carr, and Norman Colton, began to search for funding for his “fourth dimensional space vehicle.” This craft would somehow slip through space without really flying. It could travel to the moon and back in a matter of
Carr's business logo.
hours. It was designated as the OTC-X1, and the first flight would be in April 1959.

Before we get into the success of that flight, I’ll mention something that is always pointed out. Carr received a patent for his flying saucer, which is supposed to add some legitimacy to his invention. Oh, it  was not a spacecraft though, but an amusement park ride. He had partnered with an Oklahoma City theme park, Frontier City (which, if you’ve ever driven through Oklahoma City on the Interstate, you’ve seen), and it was from here that he was going to launch his flying saucer to the moon.

On Sunday, April 19, 1959, some 400 people assembled to watch the launch of the saucer. It didn’t fly… Carr was in the hospital with some sort of lung problem which meant he wasn’t there to promote his craft. He promised that the test flight would take place sometime later, but it never did. Instead, Carr found himself in trouble with the SEC because he had been selling stock in his company without the proper compliance with various governmental regulations. He spent some time in the slam for this. That should suggest something about his credibility, but there are always those who will claim the big, bad government shut him down… but the saucer never flew and his technology as never proven to be real.

None of his craft ever flew, and that is really the real point here. If the craft never flew, then it would be impossible for Lonnie Zamora to have inaccurately drawn the symbol that Carr had created for his company. Although it bears a slight resemblance to what Zamora reported, it is not an exact replica and really shouldn’t even be considered. I mention it here to make sure that no one believes it to be what Zamora saw.

I should thank my pal and fellow GoT enthusiast, Rich Reynolds, for telling me about this. Interesting though it is, there is really no reason to think that Zamora saw a Carr flying saucer with that strange symbol painted on the side.


RRRGroup said...

My understanding is that Curt Collins has something on this at a UFO page he has on Facebook.

I don't have access to Curt's page, but someone who does sent the logo to me from there.

I'd like to see Curt's take on the thing.


Tom Livesey said...

This would seem to be the Facebook page mentioned. It is set to "public" so can presumably be viewed by anyone:

cda said...

Didn't Wilbert Smith, the Canadian radio engineer, who supposedly knew all about Roswell, Aztec and other crashed saucer events and who once wrote an (in)famous memo about it, also try to build a top secret 'saucer' at his lab in Ottawa? Keyhoe met Smith and referred to it in one of his books.

There must be several others besides Smith and Carr who have played with the idea of constructing an actual model. I even recall a story about the USAF wanting to build one, back in the mid-1950s. No kidding!

TheUFOGuy said...

The search for the symbol has been extensive, but this is another huge leap off of the path. It was as Hynek drew it, an inverted v with a bar at the top, one in the middle, and one at the bottom. Col. Holder, Blue Book investigator, told his son he made Lonnie sign the published one, and sent Ray Stanford a letter stating that as truth. The fake symbol, the arrow with the semi circle over the top, was not in Lonnies handwriting, but he was forced to sign it by Holder and the FBI. I know many cannot accept that fact, and continue to portray obscure and incorrect symbols like this one as what he saw. The facts speak for themselves.Hyneks drawing, as well as the Blue Book files notes on Socorro, all are inverted v with 3 bars. Baca's subsequent charcoal was an inverted v with 3 bars before he was made to erase it. This will come to light soon in more detail.

Lance said...

Otis Carr was a fascinating character in UFO history. His story has a longer reach that you may imagine, including inspiring at least one cult. In the late 1990's, I interviewed virtually every person still alive and related to the case. The story has never been told correctly (with huge errors in virtually every telling).

In late 1959 or early 1960 (prior to his incarceration) , Carr must have gotten some marks interested in his ideas in Apple Valley, CA. He rented out a plant there on a five year lease. I believe that the Apple Valley episode ended with Carr's imprisonment in July of 1961.

As far as I know, OTC and Associates logo (which you picture here) was apparently utilized only in relation to the Apple Valley (1959-1961) days. I don't think I have ever seen it EXCEPT on the billboard. Prior to this period, his company was called OTC Enterprises and didn't feature the "A" that makes the associates logo look vaguely similar to the supposed Socorro symbol.

After jail Carr moved to McKeesport, Pennsylvania where he tried one last hurrah, now calling his company, Carr Gravity-Electrodynamic Systems with a Hummingbird as his trademark (now attempting to sell free energy generators).

By the time of Soccoro, 1964, Carr was long gone on the east coast with a new scam.

KRandle said...

So Ben,

Hynek produced a report that contained both symbols. The letter you cite does not actually reflect either of those...

Ray Stanford send Dick Hall a letter telling him that the inverted "V" with the three lines was the hoaxed symbol.

There is absolutely no reason that Holder would have Zamora sign a fake document that was going to be forwarded to Blue Book. The expectation would be that no one would see it because it would be in the files there. Why do that, and then allow the press to have the "real" symbol? Wasn't the point to keep it secret so that they could rule out impostors? Once the inverted V was published, that was no longer an issue.

Why fake the symbol on the piece of scrap paper?

Oh, if there is a letter from Holder stating that, then let's see it and end this discussion now.

I'm sorry but this endless drumbeat that the real symbol of the inverted V is the true symbol flies in the face of logic. I have Ray's letter telling us what the real symbol is... until he changed his mind a decade later. If there is a letter from Holder, signed by Holder, then let's all see it. This more later is becoming tiresome.

BTW, it was Lonnie Zamora that added the symbol to Baca's drawing, and Baca never said a word to my that he was told to erase the "real" symbol. This makes no logical sense. How did Baca know what the real symbol was to add it to his drawing only to be told to erase it later.

Adam S. said...


That sounds like Project Silverbug and most of the work of the Avro Company back then. Most of these designs, as far as we know, never made it past the conceptual stage and the few that did behaved poorly in various testing phases.

There was plenty of research into lenticicular craft during the UFO heyday, but all available documentation suggests it all came to not. And yet so many of the early UFO reports report a lenticular shape.


Adam S. said...

Never discount that a symbol can be painted on for, really any reason. If the purpose was mis-direction or deception it seems like its done its job well.

UFOxprt said...

I believe we can eliminate the OTC symbol for the Socorro case. Glad you are eliminating the perimeter debris around cases like the Mantell Case and now this one Kevin. It gets us closer to the more accurate facts around the cases. Regardless of the symbol, the case itself remains an unknown and quite interesting one, for me at least. It is the case that got me started into the world of ufology.

Unknown said...

Thank you for your continued thorough research into Roswell. Your conclusion (according to Jerome Clark: "recanting Roswell certainty") is worth considering, but I'm not certain it is the final word. I would ask you to check out one further alleged witness: Donald B. Yeager. In a copy of Crash at Corona, owned by Thelma A. Yeager, his wife, she notes in the margin: "D. B. Yeager was with [Marcel] when the remains of the UFO [were] picked up." [a photo of this is posted at Thelma Yeager, LA] Cavitt has been declared "disqualified" and not a "credible witness" by Donald R. Schmitt, Cover-up at Roswell. Is it possible Yeager's wife is revealing the truth? Thank you. Charles Walthall (Juno account is closed)

jamesrav said...

The curious thing to me about the whole 'symbol thing' is why the deception was needed in the first place. If another landing occurred (has there ever been a dual landing UFO?), there would be the burn evidence again, so the symbol would pretty much be a moot point. And if no landing occurred, were they really expecting someone making an airborne sighting of something not much bigger than a car to be able to discern a 2 foot tall insignia? Regarding the car-sized UFO, I assume this was a short-range craft from a mother ship, since I wouldn't want to be cooped up with someone for (light) years of travel in something the size of a car (and where did they keep the food?)