Saturday, December 15, 2007

Walter Haut's Affidavit

I have some problems with the new affidavit (if we want to call the document an affidavit) by Walter Haut and thought maybe we all could discuss this. I have waited to post on this so that I might gather additional information. Speculation about my reasons by others is just that, speculation. I wanted to understand the circumstances under which the document was created, how it was signed, and if it fit the definition of affidavit.

First, I have no problem with Don Schmitt (seen here) drafting the thing and having Walter review it prior to signing it. All Schmitt did was pull it into a cohesive whole for Walter’s review and then signature. I understand that both Walter’s doctor and his daughter were present when he signed the document. So far, so good.

But then we run into some trouble. As many know, Wendy Connors and Dennis Balthaser interviewed Walter prior to this latest document being created, but after a French film crew had been to New Mexico to interview Walter and he told them that he had seen the bodies... or body, depending on which statement by Walter you wish to accept.

This doesn’t include research by Gildas Bourdais who recently said that in he had talked to the French crew director and that Walter said nothing about bodies on camera to him. On UFO UpDates, Bourais wrote, " He [Vincent Gielly] told me that, when he did his filmed interview of Walter Haut, with Wendy Connors, Haut looked like someone who wished to say more, but could not. This lasted a long time, and he finally decided, a little disappointed, to end the interview. But then, he found Wendy, alone in another room, extremely disappointed because, she told him, she felt Haut was just about to talk when he ended the interview. That's what Gielly told me. He did not tell me that Haut had talked about seeing the craft and bodies. If he did, he may have promised not to repeat it, I don't know."

So, there is now a question of just what Walter (seen here on the set of the ShowTime original movie Roswell) did say to the French crew and what he said on camera as opposed to what he said in private. Connors and Balthaser say that Walter said something to the French which inspired the two of them to seek an audience with Walter to explain his earlier years in the military, and, according to them, ask a few questions to clarify the situation Walter found himself in back in 1947.

For those of us who have seen the Connors/Balthaser interview, there are some very disturbing statements by Walter... he is either badly confused, he is deeply conflicted about revealing secret he had kept for more than fifty years, or he just couldn’t keep his new story straight. It leaves us with a rambling mishmash of contradictory information.

Here is just a short portion of that rather confused statement:

"That’s a rough one I haven’t even thought about it low these many years and I honestly can’t even visualize it, whether still in it’s shape, but a lot of dings in it.... I do not remember... I would venture a guess that probably a diameter of, uh, somewhere around 25ft... To the best of my remembrance there was one body... it was relatively a small body comparable to uh, oh maybe a 11 year old, 10 or 11 year old child. It was pretty well beat up. I cannot come and give you, to be honest, anything other than that. I remember something about the arms and I am trying to visualize that and all of a sudden it starts going through my little head that that they show some of those long arms in the cartoons... I thought there was several bodies... for some reason I feel there were several bodies... the more I think about it the more I start to get an idea it was single body."

And then to thoroughly confuse the issue, Walter retreated to the line he had been using from the very beginning, in the late 1970s and early 1980s. He said, "I didn’t even see one. I just wrote a press release."

So, Connors then said, "I am talking about when you saw a body in the hanger partly covered by the tarp. You only saw the one."

Walter said, "Yes."

But so we can get real confused, Walter also said, in that same interview:

"I don’t really know. I hurts me to try and give an answer because I am not certain of the whole thing. I feel there has been information released that uh maybe shouldn’t have been released, maybe the information that we got in the operation of releases maybe something you can put out to anybody. I just... I don’t know, I don’t want to talk about a lot of the detail number one because I don’t have a lot of knowledge about the detail, everybody thinks that I saw them, I didn’t, I put out a press release that Colonel Blanchard told me what he wanted in the press release and I ran it into town and gave it to the news media and went home and ate lunch."

In the affidavit we have a very clear and concise statement about all this. Walter said (or rather signed the statement that said... and that is probably a distinction we should make at this point because of some of the controversy):

(12) Before leaving the base, Col. Blanchard took me personally to Building 84, a B-29 hangar located on the east side of the tarmac. Upon first approaching the building, I observed that it was under heavy guard both outside and inside. Once inside, I was permitted from a safe distance to first observe the object just recovered north of town. It was approx. 12 to 15 feet in length, not quite as wide, about 6 feet high, and more of an egg shape. Lighting was poor, but its surface did appear metallic. No windows, portholes, wings, tail section, or landing gear were visible.

(13) Also from a distance, I was able to see a couple of bodies under a canvas tarpaulin. Only the heads extended beyond the covering, and I was not able to make out any features. The heads did appear larger than normal and the contour of the canvas suggested the size of a 10-year-old child. At a later date in Blanchard's office, he would extend his arm about 4 feet above the floor to indicate the height

I could pull up other statements that Walter made over the years, including ones that he made to me, but there is little point in that. We all know that he said, for decades, all he had done was write the press release. Now we have a new statement in which he is in the middle of this with all the inside knowledge that anyone could hope for.

The problem is not that his earlier statements contradict his later statements but that his later statements were highly confused, and highly contradictory even inside one interview, and inside one statement in that interview.

The skeptics are going to seize these later statements and contrast them to the earlier statements and it’s going to be nearly impossible to spin this. Walter is on the record in too many places saying that all he did was write the press release. He is seen in the Connor/Balthaser interview giving that same story but wrapping it around tales of bodies and craft.

There are those who suggest that Walter was conflicted about all this. He wanted to honor the oath he had taken so long ago. He wanted to honor the promise he had made to Colonel Blanchard so long ago. But he also believed that the information was too important to be withheld and that it belonged, not to the Army, the Air Force of the government, but to every one. So even as he provided hints about what he had seen and what he knew, he wasn’t able to take us directly there. He had to come at it from the side.

You simply can’t hide the information about Walter’s confusing statements. There are too many of us out there who have seen and heard most of the witnesses and while some of us have the will to believe, there are many others who want to learn the truth. You can’t cherry-pick the information and make it seem as if it all fits together.

Had Walter’s later statements been consistent inside the context of the interview and had they been consistent throughout, then we could say that he was providing us with information that he’d had all these years. But that’s not what we have here. We have contradictory statements.

And I know that many will say that Walter was an honorable man trying to provide us with information that we all seek and all want. The problem is that it doesn’t come to us in a straight forward manner, but in a couple of interviews that have more curves than a NASCAR speedway. He twists and turns and doubles back on himself. Straightened out, as it is in the affidavit, it seems crisp and clear, but when we review the tapes of the interviews we find it is not quite as direct.

On the other side of the coin, I do have one confirmation of Walter’s new story that came from a man who lived in Albuquerque and who was the assistant finance officer for the 509th Bomb Group.

I first met Richard C. Harris (seen here) in the mid-1990s when I visited him at his home. He was a frail man then, with live-in help. He was, naturally, quite interested in the Roswell UFO case, having served at the base in 1947. And yes, he’s in the Yearbook, so we know he was there at the right time.

In his living room was a small bookcase and I mention this because there was a stack of books dealing with UFOs, the Roswell case and MJ-12. Harris was a firm believer in MJ-12.

What all this means is that he was familiar with the case as it had been written about in the various books. He had seen many of the documentaries of the case so he could have been badly contaminated as a source. Having seen the documentaries, read the books and magazine articles doesn’t mean that what he told me was based on what he had read and seen and not wholly on his memories, we must be aware that it all could be colored by those other sources.

Anyone who has served in a command position or a position of responsibility in the military knows that everything must be paid for. There are all sorts of funds that are designated for all sorts of purposes and it is considered illegal to take funds appropriated for one purpose and use them for another. This means that funds meant to pay for a unit’s flight training, for example, can’t be used to transport alien bodies and craft from one location to another. Funds must be designated for that purpose. (Unless, of course, it’s a cross country navigation problem and therefore training... if some of the wreckage, or an alien body or two are on the aircraft, hey, that’s just a bonus.)

No, it doesn’t have to say moving an alien body from Roswell to Wright Field, but the funds will have to be appropriated for moving equipment from Roswell to Wright Field. The money must be juggled. (I might point out here that, for example, money paid to the state of Iowa for National Guard training or equipment maintenance can’t be used for firefighting in California. That doesn’t mean that Iowa will allow California to burn if Iowa has a means to help, it means that funds for that assistance must come from California and not Iowa... yeah, it’s complicated, but it shows how these things work.)

Harris told me that they worked hard to find the money from legal sources, that they worked hard to cover the real purpose because there would be audits and there would be examinations that had nothing to do with the crash but everything to do with looking for fraud. So the money spent to house those brought in, for the aircraft flights to and from various locations, for the special equipment and to pay the soldiers were all juggled around so that it was properly annotated and properly spent. Harris was proud of the job they had done covering the paper trail (not unlike comments that Patrick Saunders, the base adjutant had made earlier to family members who shared these thoughts with me).

The key point of Harris’ story was this little anecdote. He said that he had been out near one of the hangars and ran into Walter. Walter told him what was on the other side of the door, meaning one of the dead aliens and told Harris he could take a quick look. Harris said that he put his hand on the door knob, but didn’t turn it. For some reason his curiosity failed him at that point. He didn’t take the look that Walter had told him to.

This, of course, suggests that Walter had deeper knowledge and Harris told me this more than a decade ago. It is, sort of, some corroboration for Walter’s new story. It’s not a very good corroboration, but it is some.

I have been looking for something to suggest that Ramey and DuBose traveled to Roswell for a morning staff meeting. It’s hard to move the commanding general around without leaving some kind of paper trail but I have found none. I have searched the records of the 509th Bomb Group and the 8th Air Force without finding a clue.

It seems to me that there would be no real reason to hide this trip... except that it would have put Ramey on the scene and that might be the reason to erase the record. If some clever person put Ramey in Roswell on July 7 or 8, then the next question can always be, "Why?"

So far, I have failed to find anything, but there are avenues to be searched.

So, here’s where we are. Walter has told us he was on the inside. He has told us that he saw the craft and, at least, one body. He gave us a couple of points that would allow for some corroboration, but we have yet to find it. Harris provides a little piece of that but not enough. So, we continue to search for the truth.


Bob Barbanes: said...

Kevin, Harris' story is not believable. Think about it: If you were told that there were aliens...aliens from another planet!...on the other side of a door, would you have been able to overcome your curiosity and not look? It goes against human nature, and I'll bet human nature was the same back in 1947. Something just doesn't seem right, does it?

starman said...

Maybe he was afraid to take a look; it might give him nightmares. Sounds silly and Brown might have laughed at it but individual attitudes vary. As for Haut, I think he was deliberately confusing.

KRandle said...

Good Morning -

I included the Harris story because it provides a corroboration for what Walter was saying now. It pre-dates the material that began after the French film crew was in Roswell in 2000. It is important for that reason. Someone was suggesting that Walter was deep on the inside long before Walter "admitted" to it.

This is also why I noted that Harris had the books on UFOs and MJ-12. He had an interest in this before anyone interviewed him.

Finally, believe him or not, but I believe I needed to include this information for balance. I couldn't just ignore it. Harris gives us a clue about Walter and what he might have seen. True, Harris seemed to run counter to human nature but he did say that.

Bob Barbanes: said...

My immediate reaction when I read that bit about Harris putting his hand on the doorknob but not turning it was that he was lying. I'm sure now that he actually did look inside and saw the alien bodies but cannot bring himself to admit it even now.

Because I'm equally sure that Haut told him something to the effect of, "Rick, if you ever, EVER breathe a word of what you see here today, you know we'll have to kill you. And your family. And your dog." I would not put it past our government to ladle on such dire consequences to potential breeches of security. And back in 1947, people knew it could be done! Nowadays we know how better to protect ourselves.

There is a huge untold story about Roswell, and the key players are dying off one by one, which is precisely what the government is hoping and waiting for. Without a credible first-hand witness, we've got nothing.

starman said...

No, I don't buy that. A number of others have told what they saw without consequences AFAIK. Even Rowe told what she was warned not to. Of course we can't be sure that either Haut or Harris were even near the bodies. Kaufmann said he was too...

Bob Koford said...

Thanks for bringing this up.

as per these quotes and a couple of the preceding comments:
" He [Vincent Gielly] told me that, when he did his filmed interview of Walter Haut, with Wendy Connors, Haut looked like someone who wished to say more, but could not...He did not tell me that Haut had talked about seeing the craft and bodies. If he did, he may have promised not to repeat it, I don't hurts me to try and give an answer because I am not certain of the whole thing. I feel there has been information released that uh maybe shouldn’t have been released..."

And then he is either faking fear here or real fear kicks in and he says: "...I don’t know, I don’t want to talk about a lot of the detail number one because I don’t have a lot of knowledge about the detail, everybody thinks that I saw them, I didn’t, I put out a press release that Colonel Blanchard told me what he wanted in the press release and I ran it into town and gave it to the news media and went home and ate lunch."

Of all of the interviews done, and all of the thoughts you have had regarding him, how credible is the idea of his testimony being shaky due to the fear?

starman said...

I don't think Haut is credible. One thing that strikes me as a bit funny is the likelihood that old age made him not very good at the disinformation game. He, like others, was probably used to spead fake information, but he had trouble handling this responsibility, in part because of age. IMO his contradictory statements stemmed from the phoniness of the story he was told to tell. I believe Roswell involved an alien craft but the whole field is awash with misinformation.

CDA said...

The main problem with Haut, and other witnesses, is that they have been interviewed and reinterviewed too many times, and by too many people. If you start with 1979 (when the first Roswell investigators got into it) it is likely that Haut has been interviewed at least 50 times, perhaps 100, maybe more, by various people either from the media or by private investigators like yourself. Each and every time he was asked to go over his Roswell involvement. But during these years the Roswell story has unfolded bit by bit, via the books, articles, films etc. Thus what was known to Haut in, say, 1979 was probably only a vague memory but at least it was uncontaminated. However, as time went by and others talked with him (and a few put ideas into his head) he began to form the idea that the Roswell story involved a lot more than he first said in 1979. Confusion & contamination had set in. This is not unusual for someone, but can get worse with the ageing process. Does anyone really know how many people have met Haut since 1979 and discussed Roswell with him? Has Stan Friedman plied him with his myriad of research papers on the subject? (Answer: almost certainly yes). Has he benefited from TV or film appearances?

I fear it is far too late to get the truth now; Haut's sole involvement for many years was that he wrote his press release without having seen the debris (and he never saw it afterwards either). Now we are told that not only did he see the object but bodies as well!

Kevin is right to cast severe doubts over this. Too many interviews, far too many, simply spoil the
quest for truth.

Exactly the same applies to other witnesses like Marcel sr and jr, Cavitt, Exon, members of the Brazel family, the numerous friends and so on. Over-interviewing these people did more harm than good. Even Beverly Bean seems to have been interviewed a bit too often (before wisely deciding to say no more).

I do wonder if someone will one day produce evidence that Haut has claimed he was abducted.

starman said...

I don't think Haut was that far gone. If it was just confusion and contamination there should have been more evidence. There was SOME evidence of contamination. Haut, for example, gave the same location as others (including Ragsdale, whose first account at least, was probably honest.)But notice that his claim of an egg shaped craft was unlike what others have said. Was he so senile he confused Socorro with Roswell? I don't think so; if contamination was the problem I think he would've repeated the description of his old buddy Kaufmann. I've noticed a consistent pattern. Old military personnel reveal what the allegedly saw or knew not long before they died. Corso was not senile but his story was fake; the same was true of Kaufmann. Haut was not as good at spreading last minute nonsense (at government urging IMO) and it showed. His story didn't reflect contamination just a phony script he was to repeat, based mostly on information already known. He was basically doing the same thing as the others.(Btw I believe the testimony of Marcel sr was honest but IMO that was different. The most important secrets the government needed to keep were at the impact site, not the debris field.The real lies pertained to the former.)

Bob Koford said...

Have a Happy Holiday Season, whatever you may celebrate or believe!

Anonymous said...

I would have to agree with CDA on this one. Haut's affidavit seems to me to be a complete fabrication. The myth has completely invaded Haut's mind. There was a crash, so therefore there must be bodies. Possibly nobody actually saw them but since there MUST be bodies (and some of the witnesses have more credibility than others) then its really doing everybody a favor (and its not really a lie in Haut's mind) if Haut just says he saw them. After all that's what everybody wants to hear.

According to this affidavit, Marcel is in on the coverup, which seems to me to be a complete contradiction in terms.

Anonymous said...

An obvious contradiction in Haut's affidavit is between paragraphs 8&9 and paragraph 16.

Marcel is described as being present at the staff meeting when the coverup plan is being discussed.

Then he is described by Haut as being 'very upset' when Ramsey switches the original material with the weather balloon.

Thus apparently Marcel is in on the coverup plan but is surprised when he discovers that he is the patsy.

Perhaps if Haut was appraised of this contradiction before he signed the affidavit he could have searched his memory for something more realistic.

Another issue is the lack of any description of retrieved materials or even photos of the second crash site being passed around at the alleged staff meeting. How surprising it is that we only get yet another description of the canonical foil, sticks etc.

Pat said...

" I believe haunt was a conflicted man, trying to tell the truth toward his end. I think his earlier statements were colored by fear of the government, which can, thru pensions, irs, va, and numerous other means cause massive problems..
The fact that nearly all Blanchard staff, confirm a recovery makes me feel it's a real thing. Not to mention general exon, Edgar Mitchell, and rameys aide at the time saying it was something factual is powerful.
People who won't believe it, just won't. If this were a murder case, most would believe the preponderance of testimony

KRandle said...

Wayne -

It wasn't Ramey's aide but his chief of staff, a much more responsible position. Ramey's aide was a captain but the chief of staff was a full colonel.

In a murder case a preponderance of the evidence would be insufficient. It requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, a much higher standard.