Veering
away from UFOs, sort of, I spoke with Brenda McClurkin of the Special
Collections at the University of Texas at Arlington library about their, well,
special collection. We learned that there were over four million negatives held
in their state-of-the-art, climate controlled vault. You can listen to the
interview here:
 |
| Ramey, DuBose and the infamous sheet of paper. Copyright: University of Texas at Arlington, Special Collections. |
Although
the point was to talk about the investigation of the Ramey Memo, which is a
photograph of Brigadier General Roger Ramey in his office holding a piece of
paper we did deviate from that somewhat. We talked about the photographer, J.
Bond Johnson, who had been sent there because a wire service story said that
debris from a flying saucer found near Roswell was being sent to Ramey. From
that we can deduce that the memo relates to that Roswell in some fashion.
Attempts to read the memo have met with various degrees of success and it had
been hoped that the latest attempt, using the latest equipment, software, and
examined by experts in forensic photographic analysis might be able to provide
a definite answer about the memo. That didn’t happen.
For
those who would like to see the “Roswell” negatives for themselves, they are
available on line here:
For
those who are interested other aspects of this, we talked about the Alamo
because of some of the items held in their collection, the history of the Texas
Revolution and the historical significance of other things that they housed. We
also talked about the procedure to visit the Special Collections… and for those
of you who might want to see the original Ramey negatives, I will point out
that you have to give them at least twenty-four hours notice so that they can
remove the negatives from the vault and allow them time to adjust, slowly to
the higher temperature and other climate factors outside the vault.
Next
week’s show: David Halperin
Topic:
I had originally contacted him about the Glassboro, New Jersey UFO landing but
we’ll also talk about his book, Journal of a UFO Investigator.
41 comments:
I notice there is a $10,000 reward offered to anyone who can give a definitive read of the Ramey memo. I wonder who is going to be the judge of this "definitive read", because as of now several such attempts have been made but only very few words have any degree of certainty attached to them.
And the likelihood of further progress is very close to zero. So I suggest in all seriousness that those pro-ET people, who are still hoping against hope that this memo might finally provide the answer as to whether we are alone in the universe, pursue other lines of investigation. General Ramey took the great (or not so great) secret to his grave. Period.
Meanwhile, what about all those supposed exoplanets recently detected in other nearby star systems? Any ETs out there?
CDA helpfully wrote:
"And the likelihood of further progress is very close to zero. So I suggest in all seriousness that those pro-ET people, who are still hoping against hope that this memo might finally provide the answer as to whether we are alone in the universe, pursue other lines of investigation."
Might I suggest if you have nothing productive to add, you say nothing.
If there is "another line of investigation" that you think could be more productive then please feel free to comment further.
The people who contributed to the "assignment" at the University of Arlington a couple of years ago were all unpaid for their time and effort. In view of the many hours spent trying to read the document, it would be most satisfying for many if that goal is one day, finally achieved, although sadly this may never happen.
What is also sad is that some people have to be so negative toward all of this...
Regards
Nitram
"What is also sad is that some people have to be so negative toward all of this..."
Yes indeed. A more positive attitude towards this sort of thing is desirable. However, I do believe Kevin has killed off a lot, if not most, of the Roswell evidence (i.e. changed it from positive to zero or negative) in his recent book, including the Ramey memo.
So Nitram knows who to blame for the current negativity.
CDA wrote:
"Kevin has killed off a lot, if not most, of the Roswell evidence (i.e. changed it from positive to zero or negative) in his recent book, including the Ramey memo."
Please tell us - on what page of his recent book did Kevin say the Ramey memo was not worth trying to read and no good would ever come from reading it (or "negative & clueless" words to that affect)?
CDA -
There is a difference between negativity and a negative outcome. Negativity is name calling when you happen to disagree with an opinion or making snarky comments for no real reason.
A negative outcome can be seen as the solution for a puzzling UFO sighting, though I would think that a solution would be a positive outcome.
The Ramey memo probably was worth examining as far as technically possible. (The USAF evidently thought it was). But it has surely reached a dead end now.
You need to balance the probability of discovering anything useful in it with the time & money spent on it. I for one cannot believe it contains anything relevant to the discovery of ETs visiting earth (or ETs at all). But if perchance it did, then we would expect such a document to still be extant somewhere, along with all the other Roswell ET-related documents, if such exist. Its value to science would preclude it being destroyed.
CDA wrote:
"The Ramey memo probably was worth examining as far as technically possible. (The USAF evidently thought it was)."
Well this is almost the opposite of comments you have made in the past... on many occasions you have written (or words to the affect) "nothing will be gained from reading the Ramey memo..."
A friend of mine once said, in reference to the Gold prospector, "You don't expect to find gold, but you have to look..."
CDA wrote
"You need to balance the probability of discovering anything useful in it with the time & money spent on it."
Well yes, but you might like to remember what Michael Jordan (arguably the greatest sportsperson of all time) once said:
"If you're trying to achieve, there will be roadblocks. I've had them; everybody has had them. But obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it."
Regards Nitram
Nitram, I agree with you, every effort should be made to read the memo. Just my opinion but for technical reasons I think that may not happen.
We have scans that are probably as good as we can get. Maybe code breaking techniques will help. Possibly Artificial Intelligence can get us further along.
The problem I see is even if a solution is reached that seems plausible to some there will be a lot of people who won't accept it because it goes against their personal bias.
In response to Neal Foy:
David Rudiak's solution is acceptable to certain people. But others (even some ETHers) do not accept his decipherment.
I repeat: if the text on this piece of paper really says what the ETHers hope and insist it says, it would NOT have been destroyed. It would be far too important to science and the military. Therefore it must still exist, somewhere.
CDA -
And your point?
If the document says what some believe it says, and if it was kept because of its importance (though the message really isn't all that important in the larger scheme of things and the best move would be to destroy it), just where would it be? And how highly classified would it be? And if it is highly classified, then we won't see it anytime soon.
Kevin:
My point is simply this:
If the document says what ETHers hope and claim it says, it would constitute a valuable (in the historical context) piece of scientific evidence, since it would be a valuable primary source document in the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligent life visiting our planet. Do you not agree?
Therefore it is most unlikely that such would have been destroyed. It would be preserved, along with a myriad of other papers on the case, and kept in an archive, for the benefit of future historians of ETH. So where is it?
Since it has never turned up, my conclusion is that nothing of scientific or historical value appears in the Ramey memo.
Is this a reasonable assumption or not? Of course I realise that the conspiracy brigade will strongly disagree and insist the said document(s) are top secret and can NEVER be released. And so on.
CDA continues...
"Since it has never turned up, my conclusion is that nothing of scientific or historical value appears in the Ramey memo." and further "the conspiracy brigade will strongly disagree and insist the said document(s) are top secret and can NEVER be released."
Following that logic since Dr Randle's tax returns haven't turned up, either he hasn't declared any income for the last 50+ years or they are confidential and someone is keeping them from us.
Neal Foy wrote
"I agree with you, every effort should be made to read the memo. Just my opinion but for technical reasons I think that may not happen."
Thanks Neal your post is reasonable and makes sense of course.
Today's quote is by the late Arnold Palmer - one of the greatest golfers ever:
"I've always made a total effort, even when the odds seemed entirely against me. I never quit trying; I never felt that I didn’t have a chance to win."
Regards
Nitram
I thought the interview was interesting, not exciting, but interesting.
I still think one way to analyze the possibilities of what it MIGHT say is to do what I've said in the past.
Namely, physically replicate the memo with the text that Rudiak claims it contains on a vintage teletype machine, then recreate the known photographic conditions.
This isn't far fetched as it's been used (via computer simulation) to determine everything from how the Titanic sank to physically modeling a 1/4 scale Hindenberg to validate explosion hypotheses.
I'd be interested in contributing if anyone has interest whether you are pro ET or pure skeptic.
It may demonstrate that some words claimed by Rudiak are correct, or not.
As noted prior, if it's a military telegram it doesn't conform to standard protocol or format. Private unofficial message, or simple press memo used as a prop?
We may never know for sure.
Nitram:
I presume you think Kevin Randle's tax returns (or even yours or mine) are of the same public interest as documents revealing the news that the earth has been visited by ETs.
And Arnold Palmer may have been one of the greatest golfers ever, but even his tax returns are of little interest compared with the alleged contents of that scrap of paper in General Ramey's hand.
This debate sounds pretty dead to me. Like the Roswell affair itself.
Brian Bell said:
"Namely, physically replicate the memo with the text that Rudiak claims it contains on a vintage teletype machine, then recreate the known photographic conditions."
Problem with that is getting the film that would even come close to replicating the actual film used. You might find vintage Ansco somewhere but the chances that it isn't age fogged is near zero. Age fog is a disaster, film that old is likely to be so fogged that you can't even get an image. Any modern film would not replicate the grain structure of the original, film technology has come a long way since 1947. Then we have developing conditions to consider. Was it hot souped (to decrease development time) as was common practice for newspapers or was it developed according to manufacturers specs? That makes a huge difference. I'm not even sure if we know what lens was used, any lens that would throw a large enough image circle to cover 4x5 could be fitted to a Graphic. That would make a difference too. To sum it up, too many variables.
So no, count me out of making a contribution for your experiment.
Neal wrote:
"To sum it up, too many variables."
And this is EXACTLY why no one even bothers to take the next step in this evaluation. They "doubt" it's possible and therefore REJECT any alternative analysis because according to them it's IMPOSSIBLE....just too many "variables".
The same attitude no doubt persisted when two guys named Wilber and Orville Wright proposed a flying machine, when rocket pioneers said it was possible to place men on the moon, or that there would never be a cure for Polio.
Impossible....just way too many "variables".
Or is it just that you prefer Rudiak's reading because without any proof you believe aliens crashed at Roswell and have manipulated human society for eons?
Brian, I was pointing out the flaws in your proposal. I think I made it clear that it isn't time to give up.
I really don't have a dog in this hunt. I've barely paid attention to David's reading. I do respect all the work he and others have done to get this far. But it is incomplete and not agreed on by all parties who want a certain outcome that aligns with their own view. On the other hand I'm willing to accept whatever comes out as long as it makes sense linguistically and historically.
I think another tack might work better. Because we know the message is in English and will generally follow the norm for sentence structure and syntax then we have a starting point for using simple code breaking techniques that have worked many times even when translating text or numbers. From what I see from the scans we can count letters and see sentence breaks. Maybe we could use artificial intelligence to try to give use possible translations. If someone has a logical argument against my proposal I would certainly defer.
Frankly, for reasons already given I think what you propose is a waste of time and resources.
Neal Foy is absolutely right about there being too many variables and no reliable way to recover those values. Every decision would carry error and (as we have seen) possible bias.
My work is doing fx for TV commercials, etc. and I'm speaking with some expertise in this field.
You could possibly get some information in a re-creation like this but recovering or confirming the text is, in my estimation, flatly impossible.
Anyway, it doesn't take doing so to know that Rudiak's nonsensical "transcript" is a nothing more than a fever dream and only makes sense if your entire life is steeped in the Paranoid Style.
Lance
Neal -
It really depends on the source of the memo. If it came in with Bond Johnson as he once claimed, then there were probably errors in it as seen with other teletypes of that era, meaning misspellings and poor grammar.
If it came through the Army communications center at Ft. Worth, then it could be filled with jargon, acronyms, and even with period spelled out as PD and comma as CMA rather than punctuation. I have seen military messages so full of jargon that they look like a foreign language.
The point is that it might not follow the normal rules for sentence structure and syntax, which is, of course, still another variable.
Lance wrote
"Neal Foy is absolutely right about there being too many variables and no reliable way to recover those values. Every decision would carry error and (as we have seen) possible bias."
I also agree with you on this - I have also raised Bell's idea with David Rudiak and Kevin before - both agree that it wouldn't work to try and physically replicate the memo with the proposed text on a vintage teletype machine, then recreate the known photographic conditions.
I have also explained the reasons why not in a previous post which clearly Bell has forgotten about.
Neal is 100% correct in his statement that this proposal is a "waste of time and resources" - but yes, we need to find another way.
Finally, Lance, your last comment does nothing to help advance the cause - you are contradicting yourself, like your mentor, as you have also in the past stated that David's interpretation of the memo "could" be correct.
Today's quote for you Lance is from Wilt Chamberlain - another legend of the basketball court...
"I believe that good things come to those who work."
Regards
Nitram
CDA
"I presume you think Kevin Randle's tax returns (or even yours or mine) are of the same public interest as documents revealing the news that the earth has been visited by ETs."
Again, you are missing the point, which has been explained numerous times by Kevin and others in earlier postings. Just because you haven't seen a document doesn't mean it's not important or that it doesn't exist. We know the Ramey memo did exist - in the highly unlikely event that Roswell was an ET visit, the documents won't suddenly surface because of a time limitation/downgrade.
If you have something sensible to contribute along the lines of what Neal has had to say ("maybe we could use artificial intelligence to try to give use possible translations.") then I would be prepared to listen.
Kevin;
I see your point and I make no claim to be an expert in A.I. But I'm going to make a possibly wrong assumption that the A.I. machine could be taught to recognize some of these things.
When I was a kid I would sometimes catch a ride with my brother in law when he had to work on a weekend at Barksdale AFB. He worked in Transportation, his job was packing and shipping. I would wait in the office in the warehouse until the pool or gym opened. Out of boredom I would try to decipher the messages coming in on the teletype so I'm familiar with what you're saying about military communications. For instance points of origin and destination were three letter designations in all caps for the various bases involved. There was a key to those near the machine and it didn't take me long to understand that part of the message. Of course being from a military family I was familiar with the Commands such as SAC,ATC, ADC, MATS etc. The point being that if I could learn to decipher at least in part those messages then it may be possible for an A.I. machine to learn military jargon as well. I guess I should add that this was just routine traffic about aircraft parts and the like, nothing classified. Barksdale was a SAC base with nuclear weapons but those would have been handled at the adjoining Bossier Base.
As I said before, whatever results a machine could produce would then be worked on by humans who would likely filter them through their own personal bias. It seems that a lot of people hang onto that bias like a drunk clinging to an empty gin bottle. So getting a translation that everyone would agree to seems unlikely.
After Complaining About "Variables" Neal wrote:
"...maybe we could use artificial intelligence to try to give use possible translations."
As if that doesn't bring up a whole lot of "variables" that can't be controlled for either. Which of the dozens of possible computer generated interpretations would you prefer to be the "actual" reading Neal?
- AND -
"Frankly, for reasons already given I think what you propose is a waste of time and resources."
That's an opinion. But the only thing that really seems a "waste of time" is people debating pros and cons of new and different methods of approaching an analysis by clinging to old notions, prior reads, and no action.
Lance wrote:
"Neal Foy is absolutely right about there being too many variables and no reliable way to recover those values. Every decision would carry error and (as we have seen) possible bias."
Bias can actually be controlled for as done in other similar recreations, not to mention blind studies. As far as "variables" go, name a study, historical or scientific, that has never had to factor in "variables".
Maybe that's why the Wright Brothers never invented the airplane or why Lindbergh never flew across the Atlantic nonstop.
Nitram wrote:
"I have also raised Bell's idea with David Rudiak and Kevin before - both agree that it wouldn't work to try and physically replicate the memo with the proposed text on a vintage teletype machine, then recreate the known photographic conditions."
Classic "Nitram". Unbeknownst to the idea's originator, run with their proposal behind closed doors until you discover your friends won't support it. Why not let them speak for themselves, or are you now their official unabashed mouthpiece?
Frankly, the only relevant comment is Kevin's in that the text may contain acronyms, errors, and other nonstandard formatting issues we are ignorant of.
But the suggestion was not to discover those unknowns but rather to evaluate the one "reading" some feel is the ONLY possible reading and nothing else
Brian Bell...
"And this is EXACTLY why no one even bothers to take the next step in this evaluation. They "doubt" it's possible and therefore REJECT any alternative analysis because according to them it's IMPOSSIBLE....just too many "variables".
Like I said last time you proposed this...You'd better get your backside into gear then...and maybe you'll conquer the problems with the variables, as outlined by Neal (and dozens of more variables that he hasn't) hopefully before your 300th birthday.
Good luck with that mate! :-)
"Today's quote for you Lance is from Wilt Chamberlain - another legend of the basketball court...
"I believe that good things come to those who work.""
Whoever this Wilt chap is (do people actually pay to watch that girls game?)...he's corrupted the original biblical phrase that went along the lines of "good things come to those who wait...
And I think that's what we're going to have to do with this Ramey memo. I'm fairly confident that, in time, some new technology will allow it to be read. Also, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Dave Rudiak is proved to be correct in the words that he believes he has translated.
Hi Martin,
I have never agreed that the proposed full transcript dreamed up up Rudiak could ever be correct. It is, in my estimation, the worst sort of conspiracy-minded claptrap.
But it is hilarious to the read the absolutely nonsensical (even considering military jargon, etc.) text for the insight it provides on the workings of the Paranoid Style mind.
Paul: It it netball that girls play, not basketball!
I'll reiterate that if the Ramey memo really contains information that we are not alone in the universe (as the ETHers insist it does), the said memo would still be extant somewhere in an archive, along with a myriad other documents, and available to science and the public. Still top secret, after 70 years? Tell me another.
The fact that it has not turned up anywhere is good reason to be confident, very confident, that its contents are worthless to science and the study of life elsewhere.
Yes, it WAS worth trying to decipher originally. But not anymore. Give up and try other areas of investigation. SETI possibly?
Brian,
I don't know how many different translations a computer might come up with. My thought is working with what we already have, not making up some experiment that is almost surely doomed.
I've had the challenge of reproducing a photo that I made that had been rejected by the client because they had changed the labels on some of the product involved. My first thought was this shouldn't be too hard, maybe take an hour or so, well, five hours later I finally got an image that was acceptable although still off by a millimeter or so in places.
From what I remember David Rudiak had the same thought on reproducing the memo photo but found it difficult to reproduce the folds in the paper. After you jump that hurdle you have to get the distance from the camera, position of the camera, position and angle of the memo exactly right. If you don't do that the experiment is useless.
Here's a project for you. Take photo of a piece of paper with type on it. Then after you have moved the paper and the camera try to reproduce your original photo exactly. No fair taking measurements, you have to go from scratch. Use any camera you like and you can use a tripod for your attempts at reproducing the original photo. This will show the difficulty in reproducing the memo photo since using the same camera and sheet of paper eliminates those variables. Have fun.
Just to make it clear I don't think my proposal is the only approach that can be taken, it certainly has it's own set of problems. Maybe we could find an expert in A.I. who could tell us if he or she thinks it's a viable approach.
Paul wrote:
"Like I said last time you proposed this...You'd better get your backside into gear then...and maybe you'll conquer the problems with the variables, as outlined by Neal (and dozens of more variables that he hasn't) hopefully before your 300th birthday."
Yes, variables must be considered but for every variable is a control that can be used even if it would mean replicating the photo hundreds of times using different lenses, filters, etc. it's not a matter of one simple photo and it's done, as you seem to be suggesting. Simple minds think simply perhaps.
But the more important observation is that few here, if any, desire to try different methods (yet unexplored) and would rather COMPLAIN they just can't get an accurate reading from what's been done thus far.
Arm chair critics rarely impress anyone with their false bravado.
It's clear that Paul has made up his mind....Rudiak is right....it's just got to be "aliens". So why bother?
Perhaps Paul by YOUR 300th birthday advanced AI will finally prove you correct....or not.
CDA -
Clearly you know nothing about the military, the American military, classified messages and the retention and destruction of classified material.
There are a number of things we do not know. Was the source of the memo the Fort Worth Star-Telegram as J. Bond Johnson once suggested? It wasn't the first thing he said and once he realized that if that was true then the value of the memo was decreased.
Was it a typewritten document created by Ramey's secretary of information passed over the telephone to Ramey? If so, it was an unclassified document that would have contained the same basic facts seen in the newspaper articles and would have been thrown away, probably later in the day.
Was it a classified message sent through the military communications system? If so, then it would have been retained for a period of time and the possibly destroyed once the information of it was replaced by better, more current data.
Would Ramey have been holding it in the photographs if it was a classified message? I say no because he was a military officer who understood the ramifications of compromising classified material. Although it is not mentioned anywhere, I suspect that Ramey's aide, Captain Roy Showalter would have been present and suggested that Ramey not hold the document when being photographed. Yes, we all know that some highly classified material has been inadvertently revealed when a government official was photographed holding a classified document but the circumstances here argue against that.
Johnson said that he had grabbed something off Ramey's desk so that the general had something in his hand for the photograph... my question would be why? There was no need for him to be holding anything.
Anyway, this is all speculation... and the real point is that the document Ramey is holding is not as important as some believe. Even if it is suggestive of an alien solution here, it is some sort of preliminary communication and was likely destroyed along with other classified communications that would have had to do with other aspects of running the Eighth Air Force. So, can we get rid of the argument that the document must be stored someone and we all have been looking in the wrong place. I say, it might have been destroyed in the course of business because message traffic has a short shelf life, is routinely destroyed and no one might have been thinking in terms of life altering information.
Kevin:
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Johnson's suggestion that Ramey hold something while being interviewed or photographed.
During my time in news media that suggestion was usually proffered to those who were the subject of a photograph. For some reason it was thought to give substance to the photograph. (It's still used today; a prop for the person in situ.) It's a kind of photographer's meme, which I' m sure some of your photographic followers know.
RR
Rich -
In considering Johnson's comments, I also look at all the things he said that were untrue about this. If Johnson did hand it to Ramey, then I would say that it is not a classified document... I would say that if a reporter was about to be allowed in the office, any classified material would be properly stored or covered up, and no one would have allowed Johnson to grab something from Ramey's desk if he attempted to do it. This I know from my experience in handling classified materials inf various environments, and all the trouble we went to covering our white boards in the TOC in Baghdad before allowing visitors to enter the area.
RRRGroup wrote:
"During my time in news media that suggestion was usually proffered to those who were the subject of a photograph. For some reason it was thought to give substance to the photograph. (It's still used today; a prop for the person in situ.) It's a kind of photographer's meme, which I' m sure some of your photographic followers know."
Absolutely agree with this. It doesn't mean the Johnson had Ramey hold the memo but it is common practice.
Kevin,
If we believe what Marcel and DeBose had to say, then it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Ramey felt some pressure. His superior had told him to bury this story and now. Not to mention he had just seen very strange materials brought in by Marcel.
People under pressure do strange things that defy logic. World class golfers shank a drive, NFL kickers miss point blank field goals etc. So Ramey having a brain fart under the circumstances doesn't seem impossible to me. I do agree with you that the most likely thing is the memo isn't the holy grail of UFOlogy.
Kevin:
You appear to agree that the memo contains nothing of value to either science or the military. That is my very point: if it DID contain anything of such import (like the early discovery of the debris possibly being ET), it would, I am positive, be retained, along with a myriad of other Roswell-ET documents, in an archive.
Therefore I conclude that its very non-existence (so far as we know) indicates it has no scientific, military or historical value. But I agree it MAY still have been destroyed by accident.
I am reasoning on the lines of the missing Roswell AFB messages from 1947-49, mentioned in the GAO Report of 1995. The mere fact that they went missing (destroyed?) strongly indicates that they were routine junk and therefore had no connection with the discovery of a possible ET visit to planet earth.
Bell & CDA
If you have any ideas that might assist with reading of that memo, that won't take 300 years or so (ideally less than 12 months), please feel free to send them to this email address (remember of course there is a potential $10K reward):
rameymemo@gmail.com
But please refrain from posting them on this blog please.
Regards
Nitram
Kevin wrote:
"Would Ramey have been holding it in the photographs if it was a classified message? I say no because he was a military officer who understood the ramifications of compromising classified material."
I say "quite possibly" - because this sort of thing HAS happened before - although a military officer today would "almost certainly" not make that sort of mistake.
Regards
Nitram
In response to Nitram, Gen. Ramey took this great secret to his grave. Out of respect for him perhaps it should remain there, in perpetuity.
@Nitram:
rameymemo@gmail.com
I wouldn't be inclined to send anything to a mysterious, undisclosed, unnamed "person"(s) behind this offer.
For all I know, it's already someone on this blog.
Brian Bell..."Arm chair critics rarely impress anyone with their false bravado."
But you're the armchair critic!
You're the one who, throughout this thread, has been critical of people for not taking up this half arsed challenge of yours...but you wouldn't dream of taking it up yourself!
You're idea...in effect... is to reverse engineer a blank paper into a paper that looks like a paper that no one really knows what is written on it!
It's barking mad.
The remarkable thing about it is that you actually still believe it's feasible. Everyone else can see that it's an exercise in futility...
The phrase "pissing into the wind", springs to mind.
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