| David Rudiak |
Every
once in a while, something new about the Roswell case pops up. David Rudiak was
making a somewhat routine search of the newspapers from July 1947 and found the
following from the Dayton Hearld for July 9. You might say that it
provides a different perspective on our ongoing search for evidence about the
Roswell events.
According
to the newspaper, under the headline, “Field Test ‘Out’ On ‘Flying Disc.’”
Wright
Field will not receive the weather device which for a while yesterday was
believed to be a flying disc.
Plans
to send the object here for study were changed when the identification was
made.
The
office of technical intelligence received the following message from
headquarters of the Army Air Forces this morning:
“In
view of positive identification of this object as a Rawin high altitude
sounding device (radar target) it appears unnecessary to forward it to you.”
The
FBI telex that went out from Fort Worth on the evening of July 8, was based on
an interview of Major Curtan (who, in reality, was Major Kirton) who told the
FBI agent that the object was “hexagonal in shape and was suspended from a
ballon (sic) by cable, which ballon (sic) was approximately twenty feet in
diameter… Disc and balloon being transported to Wright Field by special plane
for examin[ation].”
To
me, the news article suggests that the material was not sent on to Wright Field
because it was identified in Fort Worth as a common weather balloon and not an
alien space craft. There was no reason to send it to Wright Field with the
identification and photographs made in Fort Worth. That would suggest that the
interviews conducted by the Air Force in 1994 reflected poor memory about the
event but were important because they underscored the Mogul explanation.%20Herald%201947-07-09_8%20.jpg)
The article says the balloon and the rawin
target were not sent on to Wright-Pat.
And,
I suppose the skeptics will say that it was just one more way to cover up the
super-secret Mogul project. Why bother with follow up interviews or ask to see
the balloon and rawin target at Wright Field because it was identified as just
a common balloon and radar target?
But
looking at the interviews conducted by the Air Force, several of the retired
officers were asked, specifically, about a cover up. Albert Trakowski, told
Colonel Jeffrey L. Butler and First Lieutenant James McAndrew, “Concerning a
cover story for the project Mogul, there was no planned cover story. I do not
recall any documentation nor any efforts develop a cover story even though
security for Mogul was of great concern.”
And,
Trakowski said, “I became aware of this only after Colonel [Marcellus] Duffy
called me from Wright Field from his home. This was just an informational call,
he just wanted to let me know that someone had come to him with some debris
from New Mexico and he said, ‘this sure looked like some of the stuff that you
launched from Alamogordo.’ Duffy was very familiar with the various apparatus
and materials for the project, so if he said that it was debris from the
project, I’m sure that’s what it was. He was not concerned with a breach of
security for the project.”
What
we have here, then, are Trakowski and Athelstan F. Spilhaus, relating what
Colonel Duffy might have done. Spilhaus wrote, “All the NYU personnel had left
Alomogordo [sic] when the ‘material’ was brought in – someone stated that it
may have been Col Duffy’s and therefore was sent to him at Wright-Patterson –
not because it was extraterrestrial. It is a logical reason to send it (the
debris from the desert) there – not because it was special – Col Duffy was a
fine officer and I’m sure he’d recognize it.”
Trakowski
and Spilhaus, as second-hand witnesses, were providing information about the
debris being forwarded to Wright Field, but suggesting it was just a few
samples. Yet we have first-hand testimony from eyewitnesses suggesting more
than just a few scraps of the material hand carried to Wright Pat. In fact,
crates had been constructed to house the debris for the trip out of Roswell.
There
were already pictures of Jesse Marcel, Roger Ramey and Thomas Dubose published
in the newspapers with that balloon and target. Sort of a “Nothing to see here.
Move along,” ploy. I mean, who, really thought it was an alien spacecraft in
those pictures until Jesse Marcel began talking about it in those terms in
1978, so long after the event.
But
since the balloon experiments being conducted in New Mexico weren’t classified,
though there seemed to be a great deal of concern about possible security
breaches of the ultimate purpose. The next day, that is July 10, more pictures
of the balloons and rawin targets were published in newspapers around the
country. You must wonder what those officers interviewed in 1994 were talking
about given the documentation from 1947.
What
we do have is the newspaper article that David found, telling us that the
flight to Wright Field was cancelled, and the second-hand memories of two of
those involved in some fashion with Mogul, telling us that Duffy had identified
it. This really boils down to which of the witnesses to you care to believe.
But I will note that if General Ramey and his weather officer, Warrant Officer
Irving Newton, had already identified the material and given that
identification to the press, what purpose would be served by sending it on to
Duffy at Wright Field?

10 comments:
There would be two reasons to give the local Dayton newspaper a story that the debris was not sent on to Wright Field:
1. There really was "nothing-to-see-here." The debris was not exotic, just balloon junk that was identified as such, so a mundane "dog bites man" story.
2. There was a whole lot of "something-to-see-here." The debris was not just exotic but history-altering. But tell the newspaper it was nothing important as part of the cover story. Why get the local newspaper's curiosity up if they were inquiring about the nationally reported shipment of Roswell debris to Wright?
Now I might note here that the two local Dayton newspapers DID seem to keep an eye on what was happening at Wright Field. Just 10 days later the two papers may very well have gotten their teeth a little bit into an important story that I can't find anywhere else. On July 18, 1947, there was a very strange, high-powered meeting at Wright Field by the Army Air Force's top people (and I mean TOP, TOP PEOPLE!!!!), supposedly about "air materiel problems."
Who was at the meeting? AAF Chief of Staff and vice C/S Generals Carl Spaatz and Hoyt Vandenberg, Stuart Symington, Secretary of the AAF (soon to be Secretary of the new USAF), Gen. Nathan Twining, C/S of the Air Materiel Command at Wright (future USAF C/S and head of Joint Chiefs), Gen. Benjamin Chidlaw, Deputy head of engineering at Wright (future head of the Air Defense Command), Gen. William Kepner, former head of the 8th AAF (Gen. Ramey's current command) and currently the head of the AAF's Atomic Energy Division and Special Weapons Group at the Pentagon.
The Dayton Daily News also reported that Symington had defied doctor's orders to rest and had instead flown in from St. Louis. At a press conference that followed, Twining, Symington, and Spaatz said nothing about "air materiel problems", instead talking about how the planned unification of the military branches was going to save a lot of money. Spaatz also said they had a lot invested in Wright Field and it would remain the nation's No. 1 aeronautical research facility. Symington said he knew nothing about his rumored appointment to be the new Secretary of the USAF.
I could write a long piece about connections of all these men to the UFO question and Roswell. E.g., both Twining and Chidlaw had been in New Mexico from July 7-11. Gen. Dubose had named Chidlaw as being the ultimate recipient at Wright of a secret shipment of Roswell crash debris Dubose had handled on July 6. Twining, of course, wrote the infamous Twining memo 2 months later declaring flying discs as real and urging a wide-spread R&D back-engineering effort. When Chidlaw soon became C/O of the AMC replacing Twining, he was the one who directed the formation of Project Sign to investigate the saucers.
At the time of Roswell, Vandenberg was running things at the Pentagon while Spaatz was supposedly fishing in Medford, Oregon, on vacation. But Spaatz instead went off to San Antonio, Tex., supposedly to do some deep-sea fishing near Corpus Christi. Various San Antonio newspaper items had him in and out of San Antonio between July 9 and 12 before returning to Washington on July 13. San Antonio was and is notable for having the largest concentration of medical treatment and R&D facilities in the military. This would be one logical place to carry out autopsies. (See: "Where was Gen. Spaatz?: www.roswellproof.com/vandenberg.html#anchor_57)
And Gen. Kepner at the time was the AF's expert in atomic weapons. So what was this unusual meeting at Wright Field 10 days after Roswell? Was it really necessary for all this Air Force star power to hold a meeting at Wright to discuss mere "air materiel problems," including Symington defying doctor's orders to attend? It strikes me this meeting was about something much more urgent and important. ( More discussion on this at: www.roswellproof.com/vandenberg.html#anchor_59 )
Hmmm. That is the first I have ever heard of that contemporaneous article in the Dayton newspaper. That just goes to show that sometimes when you think you know everything about a subject, something new comes to light. Thank you, Kevin (and David) for reporting this.
1. Marcel said he was ordered at Roswell to accompany debris to Wright Field, first stopping at Fort Worth to show Gen. Ramey. But Ramey pulled him from the flight, telling him they would take care of it from there and he should go back to Roswell.
2. Sgt. Robert Porter on the Roswell/Fort Worth flight with Marcel, said that when they arrived in Fort Worth, a guard was posted first before transferring the debris to ANOTHER plane bound for Wright Field.
3. The FBI in Dallas was informed by phone by HQ 8th AAF at Fort Worth that the purported Roswell flying disc was hexagonal in shape and suspended from a balloon, or, in other words, it resembled “a high-altitude weather balloon with a radar reflector…” But adding, that Wright Field in a phone conversation with 8th HQ disagreed. “Disc and balloon being transported by special plane for examination.” Time of the FBI telegram was 6:17 EST, or 5:17 in Dallas/Fort Worth.
4. ABC Radio News at 10:00 pm EDT said that the “flying disc” had been sent to Wright Field for further inspection. Their correspondent in Chicago reported that. “Brigadier General Roger Ramey says that it is being shipped by air to the AAF research center at Wright Field, Ohio.” Then adding, he had just talked to officials at Wright Field who told him “that they expect the so-called flying saucer to be delivered there, but that it hasn't arrived as yet.”
www.roswellproof.com/ABC_News_July8.html
5. Most newspapers from July 8 were published too late to carry the supposed 100% identification of the flying disc being a weather balloon and Ramey then supposedly cancelling the flight to Wright Field. Ramey cancelling the flight therefore wasn’t reported until the next day in various press stories such as AP, Reuters, and the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
As Kevin noted, the Air Force in 1994 used the testimony of Mogul head Col. Albert Trakowski that he had spoken by phone with his predecessor at Mogul, Col. Marcellus Duffy. Duffy claimed he was awakened in the middle of the night at his home at Wright Field to identify debris brought in from New Mexico. First, the AF acknowledged the FBI telegram and the Trakowski/Duffy story to indicate there HAD been a flight to Wright Field of Roswell debris. Then went on to claim that Duffy positively IDd it as coming from Project Mogul. Case closed.
But the whole story is full of holes. For one, there is a civilian telegram from the evening of July 8 where a reporter was told to contact Duffy for more information, NOT at Wright Field, but at Spring Lake N.J., HQ of the Mogul Project. So was Duffy even at Wright Field? If he wasn’t, then obviously he saw nothing.
Another major hole is that Duffy late in life wrote two letter to researcher and Roswell debunker Robert Todd about what he had supposedly viewed. Debunker Karl Pflock was also aware of the letters, as was Mogul engineer Charles Moore. The Air Force debunkers likewise knew about the letters. So why didn’t they use them if they were damning evidence in favor of Project Mogul explaining Roswell? The reason became evident when Moore and Pflock in their books quoted partially from the letters. Duffy never said he saw debris from Project Mogul. Instead he said it could have been any number of things, he wasn’t sure. Duffy helped invent the damn radar targets. If anyone could readily identify one, he would be the one. Yet he was highly ambiguous about what he allegedly viewed. For a more detailed discussion: www.roswellproof.com/RoswellSummary11.html “The Col. Duffy Story -- Was a Mogul Balloon Really Identified?”
I guess the short answer to Kevin's article title, "Did the Balloon Debris Ever Reach Wright-Patterson AFB?" would be "No". No need to send simple, already identified balloon debris, Mogul in origin or not, to WP.
If the question was "Did Roswell Debris Ever Reach WP AFB" the answer would be "Yes." For starters, from Gen. Dubose's testimony and affidavit, the stuff brought by Brazel to Roswell on July 6 was sent to Washington via Fort Worth and then on to Wright Field and Gen. Benjamin Chidlaw, Deputy Chief of Engineering there and soon-to-be C/O of the Air Materiel Command. Dubose said he arranged for this super-secret shipment upon orders of Gen. Clemence McMullen, Deputy Chief of the Strategic Air Command. See Dubose affidavit: www.roswellproof.com/dubose.html#anchor_3254
(And if you want to be real anal about it, nothing got to Wright-Patterson then because it didn't exist. The two neighboring bases didn't merge and get renamed Wright-Patt for another 6 months.)
The secret debris shipment described by Dubose may also explain the odd statement in the FBI Roswell telegram of July 8 that Wright Field disagreed with the weather balloon assessment in Fort Worth. Therefore being shipped to Wright Field by special plane for examination. Well, all that was shown in Fort Worth photos was a weather balloon and radar target and that is all that was described by Ramey's minions such as weather officer Irving Newton. Ramey denied anything else being found, so what was there to be confused about? A weather balloon is a damn weather balloon.
To the list of evidence of other debris being flown to Wright Field (maybe), I might add Sgt. Robert Smith, Smith said he helped pack up and load multiple crates of exotic debris (he was a witness to the so-called memory foil). This was being trucked in from the field. (He thought it might be headed to Los Alamos because he claimed Wright Field was closed for modernization, but I'm not at all sure about that.) Smith's affidavit: www.roswellproof.com/smith.html
Smith named Cpt. Oliver "Pappy" Henderson as being one of the pilots. Multiple Henderson family members and friends say he later told the story of piloting flying saucer debris to Wright Field, and maybe also non-human bodies. So there is another line of evidence of Roswell debris ending up at Wright Field. Henderson story and affidavits: www.roswellproof.com/Henderson.html
I wrote incorrectly:
When Chidlaw soon became C/O of the AMC replacing Twining, he was the one who directed the formation of Project Sign to investigate the saucers.
In reality it was Chidlaw's boss, Gen. Lawrence Craigie (Director of R&D under the Deputy C/S for Materiel at HQ USAF) who directed the formation of Project Sign on Dec. 30, 1947. This was 3 months after Gen. Twining in his memo declared the flying saucers real and urged a widespread R&D effort to back-engineer them.
Gen. Ramey's Chief of staff, Thomas Dubose, said Chidlaw was the ultimate recipient of Roswell debris shipped under high secrecy on July 6, first going to Washington, then to Wright Field.
Craigie, OTOH, may have gone directly to Roswell to make an assessment, then report back to President Truman. This according to his personal pilot, Ben Games, who in 2007 said he flew Craigie there from Wright Field under orders from Gen. Curtis LeMay. Games said Craigie didn't tell him anything, but he did fly him to Washington from Roswell.
My guess is that this would have happened late on July 7 to early July 8. Both LeMay and Craigie also sat on the Joint Research and Development Board chaired by Dr. Vannevar Bush. Early morning July 8, Gen. Vandenberg called a special meeting of the JRDB (it's in his daily log), simultaneous with the morning meeting of the general staff in Roswell. Immediately after the JRDB meeting, the AAF Pentagon press office put out a press release that they were certain the flying saucers were NOT space ships. This was followed very soon after by the Roswell base press release that they had recovered one.
Obviously this was all just coincidence.
Some links for more info:
JRDB meeting: www.roswellproof.com/vandenberg.html#anchor_28
Flying saucers NOT space ships press release:
www.roswellproof.com/vandenberg.html#anchor_58
www.roswellproof.com/Flying-Saucers-NOT-spaceships.html
With so much time that has passed, and with so many first-hand witnesses gone now, my only hope is that the current UFO Disclosure effort in Congress results in proof that all of those departed souls in Roswell were telling the truth about the extraterrestrial/anomalous nature of the event.
It is very confusing to me that we have so many documented reports (testimonies) from countless first-hand witnesses that describe debris (& bodies) that seemed "otherworldly".
How could so many military people and civilians have been so wrong about what they handled and saw if it was indeed from Project Mogul? (Balsa wood sticks, paper covered aluminum foil, degraded neoprene balloon rubber, etc.)
Was Colonel Dubose lying about a "balloon" cover-up story in his interview given late in his life? That is extremely hard for me to believe given the way DuBose didn't hold back with his testimony, and had nothing to gain (or lose) by stating that. He was right there in General Ramey's office when everything happened in Ft. Worth and dealt with Ramey on a practically daily basis as his Chief of Staff. Maybe the balloon "cover story" he referred to was to divert from revealing that it was material from the then-classified Project Mogul? Nothing makes sense.
Mr. Randle & Mr. Rudiak: Thank you for your outstanding efforts at trying to pull back the curtain of secrecy on Roswell. I remain very grateful for your all you have done and hope the unequivocal truth is finally revealed in our lifetimes.
I hope the actual truth comes to light before we are ALL gone.
Nearly 80 years after this watershed event, my hope is that incontrovertible proof is offered up that will finally close this once and for all. Too many years of speculation about what happened in 1947 at Roswell have passed. (I know, many reputable 1st-hand witnesses have given their testimony.) We just now need the proof that this really happened and was NOT related to Mogul or any other explanation given by the US government.
(part 1 of 2)
A few comments on my first post, concerning a high-power meeting at Wright Field on July 18, 1947, just 10 days after the big Roswell debacle in the press. According to one Dayton newspaper, it was vaguely about "air materiel problems." I've done some more research which, so far, suggests the meeting was mainly called about budgetary and procurement problems created in part by the uncertainties arising from the imminent passage of the National Security Act and the Air Force becoming a separate service from the Army and Navy.
When I went through Gen. Vandenberg's daily log for this period, first of all I learned that Vandenberg did NOT attend the meeting, despite what the Dayton newspaper said. He was in his Pentagon office doing the usual business of a vice C/S. The meeting started with a call July 11 from St. Louis by Stuart Symington, AAF Secretary, who talked about recent unfavorable NY Times articles and the need to deal with budgetary and procurement matters. He wanted to meet with Vandenberg and Gen. Twining, suggesting Wright Field a week later. However, C/S Spaatz went to the meeting, but Vandenberg did not despite Symington expressing a wish to do so. Immediately after the meeting, which lasted 3 hours, Symington called Vandenberg, and again described budgetary and procurement matters. They arranged to possibly meet within the next 2 or 3 weeks. Three days later, Twining and apparently a team of people concerned with Wright Field budgetary matters, went to the Pentagon to see Vandenberg.
Vandenberg's log gives not a hint that anything else was involved, like flying saucers or Roswell, but the seeming urgency of the meeting (Symington going against doctor's orders) and its concentration of top Air Force people (Symington, Spaatz, Twining, Kepner, Chidlaw) is still unusual and odd. In a 3 hour meeting, other matters besides budgetary/procurement could have been discussed, but I currently have no solid evidence to that effect.
If there were other matters, they were not noted in Vandenberg's log nor in the short press conference by Spaatz, Twining, and Symington that took place afterward. All that was written about the press conference is that Spaatz said unification of the armed forces would save a lot of money, Wright Field would remain the No. 1 Air Force research facility, and Symington claimed he didn't know if he would be appointed first Air Force Secretary after passage of the National Security Act.
(part 2 of 2)
There is one "MJ-12 document" dated the same day as the meeting (July 18) which has Twining requesting of Gen. Curtis LeMay, Deputy Chief of Research and Development at the Pentagon, $6 million and 150 "top-flight" physicists for meteorological and "upper air research." This is posted on Robert and Ryan Wood's Majestic documents website. https://majesticdocuments.com/documents/majestic-documents/documents-dated-prior-to-1948/
They give the document high credibility and note that $6 million was a LOT of money back then (like $80 or $90 million today with inflation) just for meteorological research, also considering the whole Air Force budget then was only about $2.4 billion. They comment "upper air research" could be code words for investigating flying saucers instead.
We don't know if this document is authentic, but we DO know about the Twining memo 2 months later declaring the saucers real and requesting a broadly-based investigation and back-engineering program, which, in part, became Project Sign. Further, in 1954, Twining, now USAF C/S, publicly said they were taking the flying saucers seriously and had their "best brains" working on the problem. And we know about AF Reg. 200-2 put out by Twining in 1953-1954 in which the term “UFOB” is defined and said to be investigated for national security and “technical aspects.” So Twining, at least, took the subject very seriously and there is some evidence they were putting some money and brain power into investigating, maybe much of it out of the public eye and budget or maybe hidden inside of other programs.
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