The Roswell Festival Interviews - 2019

This is the first of the interviews that I conducted while in Roswell. We had trouble with setting it all up so that Frank Kimbler, who would have been first, didn’t make it. I’ll get with him in the near future and get that accomplished. The first then was with Don Schmitt. You can listen to it here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/18473394

This was more of a conversation that ranged over a number of topics with Roswell taking the center stage, quite naturally. There are a couple of interesting points made about the case. For those interested in the current state of the Roswell

Don Schmitt

investigation, why, I’ll recommend my book, Roswell in the 21^st Century. I’ve removed all the hyperbole and tried to distill the case to its essence.

Next up is Alejandro Rojos of Open Minds. Caught up with him in Roswell as well. We talked about the show Unidentified and some of the trouble with establishing the credentials of Luis Elizondo. You can listen to it here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/18478724

I talked to Kathleen Marden on the last day of the Festival. Naturally, we talked about the Barney and Betty Hill case. I did mention the problems with the Star Map. Some of the data about the stars had been changed over the years based on better techniques and equipment. Kathleen addressed that. We also talked about some terrestrial explanations for the claims of alien abduction. You can listen to it here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/18485747

The last was a retrospective of what had gone on in Roswell during the Festival and other topics that crossed my mind at the time. Since it was recorded right after the completion of the interview with Kathleen, it wasn’t as organized as it could have been, but does provide some insight to the whole Festival idea. You can listen to it here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/18485805

That ended the interviews and shows recorded in Roswell. I had wanted to get a couple more, but as I have said, the gods worked against us on that. There were some interesting insights gained during the interviews.

Tom Carey will be the next guest, but this will take place in August, long after we all returned from Roswell. Given everything going on, I didn’t have the opportunity to chat with him there in front of the microphone. We’ll delve into quite a bit, including the Mexico City presentation of a couple of years ago.

The Roswell Festival 2019

The Roswell Festival might be considered the highlight of the tourist season in New Mexico. Tens of thousands of people make it to Roswell for the Festival and hundreds of thousands visit the International UFO Museum and Research Center during the year. Top of the line hotels are found in the city and the downtown area reflects the economic boom that UFOs have created.

I made it to the festival for the first time in seven years and saw that much has changed. There is now a big display from The Day the Earth Stood Still and people lined up to have their pictures taken with Gort. Science fiction, though not a huge part of the museum, does have its place and I’m not sure that is such a bad thing. After all, I have written a number of science fiction novels, something that a few in the UFO field never failed to mention.

The Day the Earth Stood Still in the Roswell Museum. All photographs copyright by Kevin Randle.

One of the first things I did, on the first morning before the Festival began, before the opening “Meet and Greet” took place, was approach Derrell Sims. I mentioned something about a fellow Vietnam Veteran and he was quick to point out that he was a Vietnam Era Veteran. That means he served in the military during the war but that he had never deployed incountry (which is how we say served in Vietnam). He then launched into his resume of military service which has been well publicized over the years.

My plan was to interview six of the men and women who had been invited to give presentations. There were troubles with this from the very beginning. It started with getting the microphone, computer and WiFi connection operating. I had planned to use Skype video, but we just couldn’t get a good signal strength for it to work properly. I finally settled for four shows using only audio.

I, along with several others including Paul Davids, Tom Carey, Don Schmitt, Don Burleson and Frank Kimbler, were on two panels about the Roswell case. There were some interesting nuggets dropped there. I had mentioned that there were avenues of investigation to be followed, including research into the Ramey Memo. I did say that we hadn’t found any metallic debris but Frank said that wasn’t exactly accurate.

Don Schmitt, Kevin Randle and Frank Kimbler on the Roswell Panel. In the interest of full disclosure, this picture
is from an earlier Festival panel discussion on the Roswell case.

Frank, in his work with the Roswell case, had been finding bits and pieces of metallic debris out on the Foster (Brazel) ranch. Much of it is still being analyzed. Frank did say it was difficult to find labs to do the analysis when they learned that it related to the Roswell case.

This is something that I think all of us have encountered. Don and Tom said that as they attempted to interest anthropologists in certain aspects of the Roswell investigation, they would bail at the first mention of Roswell.

In researching the Ramey Memo, I have run into the same thing. Photo analyses and other experts backed away the moment Roswell was mentioned. Others who helped didn’t want their names associated with anything to do with Roswell.

All this means is that Frank’s trouble in finding labs for the analysis rings true. And, it is too bad that Roswell has become something of a problem for scientists and technicians who would like to investigate but fear for their professional reputations. 

Frank told me something else that I found important but that has nothing to do with UFOs. Back in the 1970s I saw a movie, McKenna’s Gold about the Lost Adams Diggings. That was a very rich placer gold deposit that had been guarded by the Apache. Adams, and several others, were taken to that hidden canyon and told not to venture above the waterfall. Of course, they did, and found a hard rock gold mine. The Apaches, angered by this violation, killed the miners except for Adams, who through good fortune, escaped to tell the tale.

I had pretty well decided that this was just another fabled gold mine story that dots the old west. There are those who believe it and spent time searching for it. Frank told me that he had found the right canyon, that it does exist, and strangely, he told me where it is… southwestern New Mexico. He’d been there, seen the landmarks that Adams had described, seen the gold of the placer deposit and knew he had found the right place. Then, to compound the story, he told me specifically where it is… Apache Box Canyon, which you can basically drive to… and Google Earth will show you the way.

But I digress.

I did talk briefly with Travis Walton, who seemed to be surrounded by fans most of the three days of the Festival. I didn’t interview him while in Roswell (though that had been part of my plan), he did agree to do the radio show later. I plan to interview him in August.

The real question was if anything new about the Roswell case turned up during the Festival. While on a panel to discuss all things Roswell I had mentioned that we were running out of avenues to explore. There was the investigation into the Ramey memo, but at this stage is seemed a long shot to think we’d ever come to a consensus. Out technology isn’t quite there and given the circumstances might never get there.

Tom and Don also mentioned additional witnesses but the problem here is that we’re now dealing with the descendants of those who were there. Such interviews

Tom Carey signing books in Roswell.

do present some problems since we’re not dealing with just old memories, but with old memories that could be misinterpretations of what was said by those telling the tales to their children. We’re moving far away from the primary sources which is not a good thing.

I gave two presentations. One was “Roswell in the 21^st Century,” which was derived from my book by that name.  It was a look at some of the evidence that had collapsed in the last 20 years, but also look at some of the positive things uncovered in that same time frame.

I think one of the best things was the value of the Jim Ragsdale story. He was the guy who said that while out in the desert, with a woman to whom he was not married. They had seen the object fall and crash near them. Ragsdale was later said that he had seem dummies or bodies, he wasn’t sure which. He repeated the word “dummies” several times. James McAndrew who wrote the anti-Roswell book, Case Closed for the Air Force, used Ragsdale’s testimony to prove that what was seen were anthropomorphic dummies dropped years after the Roswell crash. But, if Ragsdale was lying, as now seems to be the case, then his testimony about dummies or bodies is irrelevant, and a conclusion based on his testimony is fatally flawed. In other words, the Air Force used a lie to prove that these anthropomorphic dummies were what Ragsdale and others had seen. There were no alien bodies at all.

Kathleen Marden chatting with a visitor.

I did chat with Kathleen Marden for an hour, which was recorded there in Roswell to be broadcast on my radio show/podcast in the near future. We discussed the Barney and Betty Hill abduction, the star map, and other aspects of the abduction phenomenon. She seemed to have a good grasp on the topic, though I wasn’t in complete agreement with her on many of the points.

While there I did have the opportunity to speak with dozens of people. Although many seemed to understand that we lack the proof positive of an alien event, too many others seemed to embrace all the craziness from the Philip Corso story to the MJ-12 nonsense. There were some who were quite well versed in UFOs and others who were there because, well, there was a festival going on and it sounded like fun. I even saw a few people dressed as Storm Troopers (the Star Wars kind) and a couple of others in costumes from other science fiction universes. (But since I write science fiction myself on occasion, I didn’t mind chatting with those people.)

Most of my time was spent either arranging interviews for the radio show or conversing with those who were visiting the museum. I was there, at the museum, from the moment it opened until it was closed. But I just didn’t have a chance to sit in on other presentations. There were three tracks of programming, not to mention the special sessions held by some of the presenters. Too much to do and too little time to do it which, for a Festival, is probably a good thing.

I should note that the museum staff worked very hard to put on a good Festival, but had time to help me with my problems in setting up for the radio interviews. I never heard an angry word from any of them. They worked to keep everything flowing smoothly and the crowds happy. They did a great job and I never heard anyone complain about the programming, the presentations or the availability of the staff to help out.

The last thing was a tribute dinner for Stan Friedman who had died several weeks earlier. Given my experiences with Stan, some of the things he said about me, and his attempts to stop the publication of Don’s and my book, UFO Crash at Roswell, I just didn’t feel the need to attend. Instead I had Church’s Fried Chicken.

Main Street closed for the vendors during the Festival.

For those interested in analysis, I think the Festival has gone in the direction of creating a festival in recent years. While there was programing that related to UFO research, there were many other activities that had nothing to do with that. Main Street near the museum was shut down for all sorts of vendors, some of which had little or nothing to do with UFOs. Not that I’m criticizing that, just noting it in passing.

The International UFO Museum and Research Center.

For those interested in UFOs in general and Roswell in particular, the annual Festival is one of those must attends. The opportunity to talk with the researchers, those who have spent decades investigating Roswell, and others who have spent the same kind of time researching other aspects of the UFO field, is the big plus. I was able to answer lots of questions about the case that might not have been explained in detail in books, magazine articles and TV documentaries.

As for the Festival, it is something that those interested in UFOs should attend, at least once.

X-Zone Radio and the Assault on Area 51

I learned yesterday, which is to say July 15, that a group on Facebook was planning to storm the fences at Area 51 to get to the bottom of the alien rumors. Over a million people had signed up for this excursion, and the whole thing caused Rob McConnell to call to talk about it on his X-Zone Radio Show. You can listen to the interview here:

https://www.spreaker.com/episode/18558726

The whole thing is probably something of a joke, but these sorts of things just don’t do us in serious UFO research any good. Sure, it is a novel idea designed, I guess, to get lots of shares and clicks… but there are too many out here who will not see the humor, will not know the joke, and think that those of us in serious research condone this sort of thing…

Not to mention all the signs around Area 51 that suggest “Deadly Force is Authorized.” No, I don’t think the Air Force is going to shoot people, but if the misguided show, not knowing it is a joke, they’ll find themselves in legal trouble… like those buffoons who do not read the signs in airports about joking about bombs and hijacking.

The International UFO Museum and Research Center. Photo copyright by Kevin Randle.

When we finished with that, we talked about the Roswell Festival and the economic boom it has brought to Roswell, we talked about the Lonnie Zamora sighting and a few other things of interest.

I did mention that Frank Kimbler had told me about the location of the Lost Adams Diggings, a placer gold mine in southeastern New Mexico. My interest began with a movie, McKenna’s Gold and expanded from there. I gave the basics of the tale on the show.

In the next few days, I’ll post more about the Roswell Festival, and next week, the interviews I conducted in Roswell will be slipped into my program’s rotation

Roswell and Chasing UFOs

I have waited to comment on the National Geographic Channel’s Chasing UFOs because I wanted to see the episode that dealt with the Roswell case. I wanted to see how they handled it and I wanted to see if the button that they had used on the web to promote the program actually showed up in that program. There had been talk that the buttons they would use were those metallic fatigue uniform buttons that Frank Kimbler had found during earlier searches.

I now have the answers for my questions and it is not good.

White Sands UFO

First, let’s divert for a moment. They used that old video from White Sands of something that looked disc shaped that angled to the ground, bounced high and then hit with an explosion. They were quite impressed with it and at the end said that their missile expert had said that it wasn’t a missile.

But this video has been around for a decade or more and those on the SyFy Channel’s Fact or Faked: The Paranormal Files had explored the possibility that the footage was of a missile test that had gone astray. They attempted to replicate the footage themselves and did a fairly convincing job.

White Sands UFO near telephone pole.

I wondered then, and I wonder now, why these investigators don’t bother with checking with the White Sands Missile Range. I did that and Monte Marlin said that he once had an email response prepared that he sent out to all who asked about the video. It struck me that for him to do that, it meant that there were many others who also asked the question about the footage which isn’t a bad thing. I mean there were enough people asking about the validity of the tape that he felt compelled to create a generic response to save himself some time.

White Sands explosion.

Marlin, in his email to me said that this particular video was part of “an infrared shot of a Navy missile test...The high powered optics tests are part and parcel of our test mission here at the missile range. The data we collect belongs to our ‘customers,’ the weapons developers and is used for technical purposes. Once in a while the clips make their way to the general public...”

Marlin also noted, “There are many, many launch areas and instrumentation sites on this enormous missile range. It is not uncommon to see poles in video footage. The poles may carry cabling related to the test or some poles have markings so that when we look at the footage, we can measure time/space distance.”

This seems to explain what the video shows, and it seems that there is a terrestrial explanation for it. I do wonder why, we are once again treated to this footage when a good explanation for it has been offered and why those on this new show didn’t bother with that or even know it.

Frank Kimbler

After interviewing Cliff Stone, who seems to be a nice fellow who has studied UFOs for quite a while, but who has no special knowledge about the Roswell case, they move onto the Debris Field. They did take Frank Kimbler out there with them. He explains how he located the field, talking about getting the information from the International UFO Museum and Research Center.

With metal detectors, they begin to sweep the field. Quickly (and I say quickly because it is clear they didn’t spend many hours out there), they find a bit of metal. While everyone stands around speculating about how this might be part of the craft or it might be the remnants of the recovery operation, but not seeming to be able to identify the metal as a rusted can, they move on.

After Frank returns to Roswell, they decide to spend the night, using their metal detectors, night vision photography, and their enthusiasm. Eventually, Erin Ryder discovers something. They all crowd around as they dig it up and find a button. They don’t recognize it, but believe it to be military, and if so, why then that is highly significant.

Back in LA they analyze the things they have found. They mention their missile expert but nothing from White Sands. The first metal they found was nothing more important than the remains of a tin can. They had mentioned how desolate the area was, but failed to mention that it was a working ranch and that UFO investigators had been out there, on and off, for two decades. A rusted can has no significance.

A button similar to the one they found.

They have now identified the button as Air Force. The instant I saw it, I knew it was an Air Force button. But I also realized, the instant I saw it, that the button was irrelevant. In July 1947, when the recovery operation was underway, there was no Air Force. There was the Army Air Forces, but the point is, it was the Army Air Force Forces. The Air Force wouldn’t become a separate service until September.

Here’s something else. The button is from a Class A uniform which is basically a coat and a tie. While not exactly a dress uniform, it is much fancier than the fatigues that would be worn into the field. The soldiers, who were cleaning the debris field, would have been in fatigues, and while the officers wouldn’t be down on their hands and knees, they might well have been dressed in a similar fashion because they were also in the field. Had they not been wearing fatigues, they would have been in khakis, a Class B uniform that would not have had the fancier buttons on it.

And if they were, for some reason, out there in a Class A uniform, the buttons would not have been Air Force, they would have been Army.

In other, more precise words, that button, that great find by the Chasing UFOs team, had nothing to do with the recovery operation, whether picking up an alien craft or the remains of a weather balloon (which would have taken a couple of guys most of an hour… ).

It is quite clear that the button was planted out there by someone who didn’t understand military history, military operations, or the proper wear of the uniform. That button, from a Class A uniform, did not belong out there because those recovering the debris wouldn’t have been wearing Class A uniforms.

Here is something else about that button. It seemed to be too good. The button I used for the photograph had not been buried, but only exposed to the open air for a couple of decades. It is tarnished to a bronze color. The button they found seemed to be nearly pristine. I would expect that if it had been buried for any length of time it would have degraded more than my button that had not.

What this tells me is that the National Geographic has gone the same way as the Arts and Entertainment Channel, Bravo, History Channel and a couple of others. Arts and Entertainment was originally about programing from high culture but has changed until its highest rated show is Storage Wars about those who buy abandoned storage lockers.

Bravo, which once broadcast ballet and opera now gives us Tabatha’s Salon Takeover where she teaches the owners of hair salons how to keep the place clean, treat customers and cut hair. They also broadcast the Real Housewives of NYC and Pregnant in Heels.

The point is that National Geographic is now more about ratings than research. It is about audience share and entertainment and not about finding the truth, whatever that truth might be. It is about superficial research that avoids asking the difficult questions or asking those who might actually have an answer.

Had anyone there asked me about the button, I could have told them that the Air Force didn’t exist in July 1947. I could have told them that the Air Force came into existence in September 1947 so that a button from an Air Force uniform would have been dropped some time after that. I would have told them that I would not expect to find such a button and at best it was dropped by someone in a Class A uniform long after the recovery operation. At worse, it was planted out there for someone to find and draw the wrong conclusions.

I suppose this is no worse than any other documentary. While I get that the producers seem to have an attitude that some UFOs are alien craft, I would rather see something with a little more substance. The reaction to finding the rusted tin can struck me as over the top. The excitement over the button was somewhat strained. In other words, I didn’t believe the “acting” around the finds and that detracted from the overall message of the program.

This is just another example of a program that doesn’t have research at its heart but entertainment. In this case, the entertainment seems to suggest that aliens do visit Earth. In other programs, the emphasis seems to be that those reporting UFOs are somehow deluded, mistaken or uneducated. In neither case are the programs fair… they take a point of view to the exclusion of contradictory information.

Chasing UFOs is no better and no worse than any of the others. I just wish they knew the subject a little better

Roswell Festival - 2012

The Roswell Festival, sponsored by the International UFO Museum and Research Center, was held over the first weekend in July. The July 4^th holiday, falling as it did in the middle of the week, created a situation where there was no real three-day holiday, which meant for many that both Friday and Monday were work days.

One of the landing sites near Levelland.

After a detour through Levelland, Texas (where I looked at the stretch of road where a number of the close encounters or landings took place in 1957) I arrived in Roswell early on Thursday afternoon. I checked into the hotel and headed down to the museum to see what was going on the day before the festival started. You might say it was a bad idea because Don Schmitt and I got involved in helping to set up the museum floor for the festival (oh, I didn’t do all that much, but did provide a little commentary on how things should be arranged).

The next morning started with a breakfast before the doors opened. Julie Schuster, the museum director, who is ill, managed to show up to greet many of us. It was her only appearance at the festival and I fear it took a toll on her. She stayed to complete some work for the museum, though nearly everyone wanted her to go home to rest. They had the situation well in hand and didn’t want her to worry.

Almost at the moment the museum opened, one fellow came in to suggest that he wanted to take Stan and me to dinner so that Stan and I could hash out our differences. I told him absolutely not. I would not be a part of such a thing, though he did promise to pay for the meal. Any meal with him around would have been quite unpleasant.

I spent the day talking to people about UFOs, my philosophy of research, and early on, had a brief talk with Steve Pierce of Travis Walton abduction fame. As noted, I had a nice chat with Travis about his abduction experience, my philosophy of alien abduction which does not mirror his, naturally, and UFO research in general.

Tom Carey had arrived by then, with his wife, Doreen, as had David Rudiak with his wife, Roberta. While setting up the tables, I suggested that David could share my table, which he did throughout the festival.

Combat assault in Vietnam

I did several programs about my journey through UFO research, but in keeping with some of the complaints about my book, Reflections of a UFO Investigator, (that there wasn’t enough about my activities outside UFO research), I added some of that material to the presentation. If nothing else, people got to see some photographs that I had taken in Vietnam and learn that the vast majority of Vietnam Vets were “normal.”

On Saturday night, there was the Roswell investigators panel that included Stan Friedman, Tom, David, Frank Kimbler, Don and me. Don acted as the moderator, though he let some of those in the audience ramble on with their questions a little longer than I thought necessary, which is probably why no one asked me to moderate. After all, the title was “moderator.”

Frank Kimbler, David Rudiak and Tom Carey

The fellow, who thought that Stan and I should go to dinner, attempted to create some controversy with his “question.”  As he talked, I whispered to Don that I wasn’t going to be dragged into the fight. I wasn’t going to say a word in response. Apparently Stan wasn’t going to either.

His point seemed to be that we all should agree on everything because those at the far end of the spectrum, the debunkers, just loved it when we didn’t. He seemed to think that we all should embrace a common theme regardless of the evidence, or our interpretation of that evidence.

This seemed like an idiotic stand to take. If we all agreed on everything, regardless of the evidence, then wouldn’t the Skeptics have a field day with that? … And rightly so. There is no point in it, and no rational reason that I should accept everything that leads to UFOs as being extraterrestrial, and there is no point in Stan (or anyone else for that matter) doing the same. To get to a proper place, whether it is the extraterrestrial or somewhere else, we must be free to examine the evidence without worrying about agreeing with the opinions, interpretations, and beliefs of everyone else.

Talking to Stan later (he wasn’t dragged into the discussion either) I noted that he had the same opinion. There is no point in agreeing to agree with everything regardless of the evidence. All that would do was drag the whole discussion down with it.

Interestingly, a woman asked if we were all locked into the extraterrestrial explanation and there was a certain amount of agreement among us all. I suggested that given the evidence, it was the most likely solution, but there was a chance we were talking about something that might be interdimensional, intradimensional, or that we were talking about time travelers. I believe, given the other responses, the others on the panel tended to agree. We weren’t going to eliminate any possible explanation, but there were some solutions that seemed more likely than others.

Denise Crosby

While at the festival, I did have a chance to talk, briefly, to Denise Crosby who had been in Star Trek: The Next Generation and who had done a couple of interesting documentaries about Star Trek. I thought it interesting that she traveled the world, literally, talking to people about Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry’s vision of world harmony. National origin, ethnic origin or religious belief didn’t seem to matter when it came to Star Trek. It is a common bond throughout the world.

Sunday night a number of the speakers were invited to dinner, which I wouldn’t mention except for a bit of irony. As we made our way to the table, I selected a chair and someone commented that it was as far from Stan as I could get. Well, that hadn’t been on my mind, and I hadn’t really noticed, but I walked to the other end of the table and selected a chair across the table from Stan.

Earlier, when no one was around, he had said to me that he appreciated my service to the country. I thought that was a nice thing for him to mention, especially since some of our beliefs about UFOs are at the opposite of the spectrum.

Proving that Stan and I are at opposite ends, I had said to him, at the hotel one morning, “Aztec? Really?”

We had a brief, but not acrimonious debate about the case, with Stan saying, “Yes, Aztec.”

Anyway, we sat down there and about five or ten minutes after we had, someone said, “You seem to be getting along.”

Stan said, “Of course. We are gentlemen.”

At the meal, we avoided the topics we knew that could grow heated and discussed some points in general, a little about the Levelland sightings, and some of the history that seems to interest us both.

Those at the table, who expected some fireworks, were probably disappointed in that. But hey, we were there to eat and socialize and not debate the reality of MJ-12 or the Aztec UFO landing.

I did sit in on one of David Rudiak’s presentations about the Ramey memo, which I found interesting. He went to the trouble to point out other interpretations of it and why he accepted, or rejected, the conclusions drawn by others. This seemed to be a presentation that gave the facts and though I knew what he believed, I thought the program was fair. His history of the events leading up to the Roswell crash and the newspaper articles about it from around the country was fascinating.

Random Thoughts and Observations:

The vendors, out in the parking lot, and there seemed to be fewer this year, complained that the people were not spending their money as freely as in years past. Inside they seemed a little more cautious about what they bought as well but I found many who were interested in my books.

I did notice that gas, on the north side of Roswell was selling for about $2.96 but on the south side and out west, it was going for $3.13 to about $3.21. I don’t know why it was so much more on one side of town, but the difference was enough that I would think you’d drive over to the other side to buy it cheaper.

It seemed that it was hotter this year and the hotel was a different one. If asked, I don’t know if there was anything significantly different between the two, though this year’s inn was just off Main Street which might have made it a tad quieter.

Frank Kimbler and Martin Dreyer

I also met a fellow, Martin Dreyer, from New Zealand, who I have been talking to on the telephone for a decade and a half. It was nice to put a face to the voice, and he has a real interest in the Roswell case, often asking the difficult questions. He did take pictures of the Saturday night panel for me.

Frankie Rowe, having moved to Roswell, showed up a number of times and I have a number of nice chats with her. She wanted to show me a “magazine” from 1938 proving that her father had been a firefighter. She seemed to think that I questioned this… I told her that I have a page from one of the logs at the fire station dated June 1947 that proved her father had worked there. It had never been a question for me.

I did see Yvonne Smith briefly, said hello, and that was about it. We were on opposite sides of the museum and our schedules seemed to conflict slightly.

Derrel Sims and I were on opposite sides of the museum as well. He came up to me and said that he had appreciated my service. Again, I thought that was a nice thing to do.

And I did see Dr. Frank Thayer who is listed as one of the co-authors of the book about the Aztec crash. We spoke briefly and he told me that Scott Ramsey hadn’t wanted to send me a copy of the book because I would negative about it. I don’t know if that means that Scott thought his information weak (doubtful) or that he thought I wouldn’t give it a fair reading. I did read it and found the evidence to be weak, so Scott was right but for the wrong reasons.

The main thing, though, seems to be Julie’s illness. There was a lot of concern for her by many there. She had done such a good job of organizing everything that her staff could step right in without missing a beat. I can’t think of a thing they might have overlooked, which is a testament to Julie’s organizational skills.

Roswell and the Disappearing Debris

I have never been a big fan of the paranoia that runs through the UFO field. I don’t believe Men in Black are stalking UFO witnesses or investigators. I don’t believe that black helicopters routinely inspect witnesses and investigators. I just don’t buy into all the paranoia that runs so deep.

But there are questions. Frank Kimbler (photo courtesy Alejandro Rojas of Open Minds), who teaches at the New Mexico Military Institute in Roswell, and who has spent time inspecting the terrain around the various debris fields and crash sites, has had some luck in finding strange debris. I say strange simply because it is not readily identifiable. He has just some scraps that he, as a geologist, was unable to identify with the equipment available to him. Doesn’t mean what he has is of alien manufacture or extraterrestrial origin. Just that it is a little odd.

On September 2, 2010, I received an email from Frank about a metal fragment he’d sent to Arizona State University for analysis, which is to say that I was just one of a couple of dozen recipients of the email. Frank send his concerns about his fragment to many of us.

Frank had received an email from Dr. Lynda B. Williams, a research professor at the School of Earth and Space Exploration at ASU. She wrote that she had received his FEDEX package and that she had opened it on the lab bench, but found nothing inside.

She wrote, “I was expecting a 2mm foil and a standard. There is nothing in there but a black felt with gray sponge layer on top of a thin grey [yes, she used both spellings] sponge layer attached to white cotton. Which layer had the sample on it? I’m sorry, but its just not there!”

Frank wrote back:

The AH- 1 metal fragment was well packaged and I can't believe that it is lost. I did not forget to include the fragment. I can assure you it was in the small round box, directly on the top in plain sight in the box.

This UFO evidence stuff is an interesting game to play. Seems to be a great deal like cat and mouse, cloak and dagger and chess all wrapped in one.

I hate to say this but I was warned and should have never trusted sending an

alloy fragment to anyone, universities, or private labs I should have hand delivered it to the SIMS lab. So its my word against everyone else's; and its my fault. The stupid mistake I make will not happen again.

The metal fragment was in the round plastic box. The round plastic container has a small metal fragment about 1.5 x 2 mm in size. It was directly on top of the black material and visible just about dead center through the plastic top. The plastic container was wrapped in a small amount of bubble wrap and taped at both ends and placed in small brown padded envelope which was also taped and stapled at the top; this was placed in a Fed-EX mailer. Very static sensitive as I mentioned in the note in the package. There was no standard because it takes weeks to get those from ALCOA.

No other fragments will be sent to anyone. All specimens will be delivered by me, under private armed guard if needed, every step of the analysis will be supervised by me and a trusted scientist or individual.

 

He signed his name.

 

No, I have no explanation for this. I know that Frank would not be engaged in some sort of hoax to elevate the importance of his work. I don’t know how any governmental agency, if a governmental agency was involved, could have pulled this off. It is one of those mysteries that dot the landscape. (Debris photo courtesy of Frank Kimbler.)

I do know that back in 1990, after Mark Wolf, Don Schmitt and I had interviewed Glenn Dennis on tape for the first and second times, that Wolf gave me one set of interviews and he took the other set. He said that the package that contained his video tapes had been tampered with, but nothing was missing. He thought it strange simply because, on other assignments and documentaries, when they had transported video tapes, nothing had been disturbed. However, all the tapes were there and I had the duplicate (or rather the other interview) with me so it wasn’t as if anything was lost.

Make of this what you will. The sample has vanished from the closed package. Dr. Williams didn’t mention that she thought there had been tampering and she wasn’t looking for that. I do know that I have received some FEDEX packages in pretty sorry shape.

One fact remains. There was nothing in the package, and unless Frank is engaging in some kind of scheme, I have no explanation for this.

The Roswell Festival

Yes, I have returned from Roswell, my first visit there in nearly fifteen years. The town has grown quite a bit and it is surprising the number of new, top line hotels, franchise operations and the improvements to the city. The UFO business has been very good.

The UFO Festival, held over the Fourth of July weekend, which is the anniversary of the crash so many years ago, is a well planned and well executed event. The speakers and presenters cover the range of those inside the UFO field from abductees and abduction researchers, to UFO investigators to those who have had some kind of spectacular UFO sighting. And this doesn’t even mention the TV and movie stars who attended including Roy Thinnes of The Invaders (in color).

I arrived in mid-afternoon on Friday and found my table, in the museum where I could attempt to sell a few books and DVDs. I was paired with Robert Salas of the nuclear weapons intrusion fame. He is a retired government employee who served in the Air Force as a captain (but then who didn’t... which is just my way of saying that I had once been a captain in the Air Force, too).

The next day I managed to offend him but in this case actually proves the adage that no good deed goes unpunished. I had been joking with those circulating through the area, talking with them and not really pushing the books. A couple of people had asked the prices and I was explaining the charges and pointed at Salas’ single book to give the price.

He snapped, “I’m getting really tired of that.”

I thought it a somewhat unprofessional thing to say in front of those people but let it slide until they had moved on and we had a momentary break. I said that I had just been trying to help by directing their attention to his book, but he said that he didn’t need my help.

About thirty minutes later I went to lunch and when I came back, I was preparing for my presentation. I kiddingly said a couple of things (though I was sort of annoyed at his earlier outburst) about what had happened. When I returned from the presentation he’d taken his books and found another location, which meant I had the table to myself. That was fine with me.

Of course, while I was interviewing a very nice woman about her involvement with the Roswell crash, Salas was quick to join our private conversation and take over. Some of the questions he asked were those that I wanted to ask anyway, but he did just butt in. I said nothing to him about that, either in front of the woman or after she was on her way.

Salas, it seems, likes to be the center of attention. I had unknowingly taken that from him as I talked to those who had come to our table. But then, it is also true that some people have no sense of humor... and mine is sometimes a little over developed.

Anyway, I gave my presentations (there were two of them) without interruption or trouble (other than kicking the power cord out of the computer so it went into hibernation mode.) We got that fixed in minutes and I went right back into the presentation.

The museum had multiple presentations going on from nine to five or six but the highlight might have been the Roswell researchers panel held on Saturday night. Stan Friedman, Tom Carey, Don Schmitt, Frank Kimbler and I shared the stage talking about how we had been dragged into the Roswell investigations. (The people from the left are Kimbler, me, Schmitt, Carey and Friedman. Photo courtesy of Alejandro Rojas at www.openminds.tv/top-ufo-roswell-researchers-728/.)

The room was packed and there were people standing outside on the sidewalk waiting for an opportunity to get in. We all talked about how we became involved in the case and some of the side, often funny experiences we’d had in working the case.

Frank Kimbler told of his experiences in using a metal detector and other search techniques in an attempt to locate anything left over from the crash in 1947. I mention this only because people are always asking if we have ever attempted that and the answer was “Yes.” Included in that were archaeological site survey techniques and other accepted practices in an attempt to locate material of significance.

I provided a number of programs on my experiences as a UFO investigator going back to my high school years. At that time, when I interviewed my first witness, I had but one question that was important to me. I asked her if the object had been distinct or if it had been fuzzy. She told me it was about 200 feet over the barn and it looked quite solid.

By Monday, I was getting worn out. Right next to me was display that included the Headline Edition of ABC News which was a report on the UFO crash. It started with a number of loud beeps and never quieted down. It seemed to me that the moment it ended, someone else would push the button and it would start all over again.

That’s not to mention a rather impressive flying saucer display that went off with a roar every fifteen minutes or so, complete with smoke pouring out the bottom. That was a conversation stopper but it was also becoming tiring after three days of watching it.

Tom Carey and I went to lunch Monday (early because I was getting tired) and then, because of a report of something (alien bodies to be precise) buried on the outskirts of town, we went to look for that. The story was that we would find to headstones near a wall. It took us about fifteen minutes to find the location and then another fifteen to find the stones. Later, with digging equipment (read shovels here) others went out, but they found nothing alien buried.

No, I didn’t go to some of the other venues. There were all sorts of vendors selling everything from T-shirts to cold drinks. There were some tours and space related exhibits, but I spent most my time in the museum.

I did have breakfast every morning with Roy Thinnes (seen here), which was interesting and we went to dinner one night. That included Tom Carey and Don Schmitt. Other nights the three of us, Carey, Schmitt and I went to dinner without Thinnes (the Golden Corral if you must know because they have a very nice salad bar, vegetable bar and desert bar.)

I did talk to Stan Friedman on a couple of occasions. He made it clear that he believed that Robert Willingham was being less than candid about his UFO experiences, but that didn’t affect the MJ-12 papers. Carey wondered why he would bring that up one morning and I told him about Willingham being the only witness to the Del Rio UFO crash (and there will be more on this in a later posting).

Monday night there was a very nice little dinner in the museum for those of us who had done programs and for the staff who had worked so hard to make the Festival a success. The people behind the scenes, who make sure the rooms are cleaned, the equipment is in place and working, that the gift shop is manned, that the guests (meaning not only the speakers but all those who came to learn a little more about UFOs) were helped as needed, and that a thousand other little things were ready, were there to mingle with the rest of us. I hesitated too long and only managed to get one slice of pizza, but it was a good slice.

I blew out of town early on Tuesday morning for the long drive home. I hit no storms (and was told it hadn’t rained in Roswell since October), but did pass one SUV that was engulfed in flames. No one had been hurt and the ambulances and fire trucks were near so they had all the help they needed.

For me, and I sure for many others, the Festival was well worthwhile. I met some nice people, renewed a couple of old friendships, and wasn’t at all surprised that Travis Walton didn’t even say “Hi,” back to me. He had obviously read The Abduction Enigma and probably wasn’t too happy with our take on alien abduction.

Julie Shuster (seen here) has done a fine job of keeping her father’s vision of the museum alive. Walter Haut had told me long ago that he wanted to encompass everything in the UFO field, not just a narrow niche of Roswell or crash retrievals. He wanted all points of view covered, even those with which he might have disagreed including those of the skeptics. The museum reflects that vision. It covers quite a bit, even those things with which I disagree but that’s what makes this a good museum. It’s not just the one point of view, but many.