Let’s
chase a footnote or two, something we haven’t done for a while. I was reading a
paper that was discussing the debris displayed on the floor in Brigadier
General Roger Ramey’s office. Photographs of the debris were found decades ago
and some of the
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Brigadier General Roger Ramey and Thomas DuBose (seated) looking at the material on the floor in Ramey's office. |
negatives are housed in the Special Collections in the library
at the University of Texas at Arlington. It is clear in the uncropped
photographs that the material on the floor of Ramey’s office is a weather
balloon and the torn-up remnants of a rawin reflector. The discussion was that
the material shown there had been switched from the real debris that Major
Jesse Marcel had brought from Roswell. In this latest analysis, it was said
that the debris had not been switched, which, of course, means that a weather
balloon had been brought from Roswell by Marcel. You can read about this here:
The
specific quote in that paper concerning all this is, “Decades later, during an
interview, DuBose was asked if the original debris in General Ramey’s office
had been switched with the remnants of a weather balloon [as Marcel had
claimed]. DuBose answered that the material was never switched.”
Footnotes
in that article, lead us to Kal Korff. That specific quote is in the middle of
information that was attributed to Korff in an article that appeared in The Skeptical Inquirer Volume 21.4,
found at:
Specifically,
the quote is this:
Q.
There are two researchers ([Don] Schmitt and Randle) [parenthetical statement
in the original] who are presently saying that the debris in General Ramey’s
office had been switched and that you men had a weather balloon there in its
place.
A.
[DuBose] Oh Bull! That material was never switched!
Q.
So what you’re saying is that the material in General Ramey’s office was the
actual debris brought from Roswell?
A.
That’s absolutely right.
Later,
to reinforce this idea, Korff in that same article wrote:
Q.
Did you get a chance to read the material and look at the pictures?
A.
Yes, and I studied the pictures very carefully.
Q.
Do you recognize that material?
A.
Oh yes. That’s the material that Marcel brought into Fort Worth from Roswell.
Given
the way the article is structured and the information provided, that would be
the end of the trail. Korff provided no footnotes or references for the quoted
material, only that DuBose denied the material had been switched. It leaves the
impression that Korff might have conducted the interview, though that is not
said anywhere in the article. We just have DuBose quoted as the source with no
information on how those quotes were gathered.
That
might have been a problem for someone not immersed in the Roswell minutia who
wished to chase footnotes. I know, however, where the quotes come from
originally. They appeared in Korff’s less than accurate account of his alleged
investigation into the Roswell case. He wrote on page 129 of the hardback
edition of his crummy book:
In
a revealing interview he granted to UFO researcher and television producer
Jamie Shandera, DuBose put to rest the “mystery” of the so-called substituted
wreckage and has exposed it for what it is – another Major Marcel myth! The
initials “JHS” stand for Jaime Shandera and the initials “GTD” denote Gen.
Thomas DuBose.
In
this version, which now gives us more information about who conducted the
interview (including the initials of the participants rather than a “Q” and
“A”), Korff wrote:
JHS.
There are two researchers (Schmitt and Randle) [parenthetical statement in the
original] who are presently saying that the debris in General Ramey’s office
had been switched and that you men had a weather balloon there in its place.
GTD.
Oh Bull! That material was never switched!
JHS.
So what you’re saying is that the material in General Ramey’s office was the
actual debris brought from Roswell?
GTD.
That’s absolutely right.
JHS:
Could General Ramey or someone else have ordered a switch without you knowing
it?
GTD:
I have dame good eyesight – well, it was better back then than it is now – and
I was there, and I had charge of the material, and it was never switched. [Emphasis
added] [by Korff in the original].
You’ll
note that this is the same interview that appeared in The Skeptical Inquirer. The
footnotes in the book take us to Focus,
Volume 5, (New Series) dated June 30, 1990. It was also published in the MUFON UFO Journal, No. 273, in January
1991. The quotes are the same in all these various locations, so that we have
traced the original back to interviews conducted by Shandera.
Here’s
what we learn about those interviews. “…Gen. DuBose was recently interviewed
first by telephone and later at his home by Fair Witness Project [Bill Moore’s
organization to investigate UFOs] Board member Jaime Shandera.”
We
now know who gathered the information, when it was gathered (meaning late 1990
and early 1991), and what it is claimed to have been said. But, unlike many of
these chasing footnotes articles, there is more to the story. I have a great
deal of other information that affects how this all plays out and it was
information available to anyone who looked for more than just their confirming
evidence...
First, according to both General and Mrs.
DuBose, Shandera neither recorded the conversation held at the DuBose home, nor
did he take notes. We’re left with only Shandera’s claims of what was said, and
the information in quotation marks is more likely a paraphrase than actual
quotes. There is no way to verify the accuracy of the quotes.
Although Shandera has been asked, he
apparently did not record the telephone conversation either. He has never
suggested that he took any notes during that conversation, so, once again, we
have no way to verify the veracity of his claims.
On the other hand, DuBose was
interviewed in Florida by Don Schmitt and Stan Friedman on August 10, 1991.
That interview was recorded on video tape so that a record of DuBose’s exact
words is available for review. In that interview, DuBose was asked pointedly if he had ever seen the Roswell debris and he
responded, "NEVER!" That means, quite clearly, that the debris in
Ramey’s office was not what had been brought from Roswell.
After the Shandera interview was published, DuBose was again
interviewed and asked if he had ever seen the real debris and again he
answered, "NO!" And, again, that refutes the information that is
traced back to a single source, which is Shandera.
This could be construed as just another debate between two
factions with no way to resolve it. However, DuBose spoke to others when asked
about this particular point. Billy Cox, at the time a writer for Florida Today interviewed DuBose for an
article he wrote for the November 24, 1991, edition of the newspaper. Cox
reported that DuBose told him essentially the same story that he told the
others except Shandera. Here was a disinterested third-party reporting on the
same set of circumstances, but he didn't get Shandera's version of the events.
In a letter Cox send me dated September 30, 1991:
I was aware of the recent controversy generated by an interview
he (DuBose) had with Jaime Shandera, during which he stated that the display
debris at Fort Worth was genuine UFO wreckage and not a weather balloon, as he
had previously stated. But I chose not to complicate matters by asking him to
illuminate what he had told Shandera; instead, I simply asked him, without
pressure, to recall events as he remembered them...he seemed especially adamant
about his role in the Roswell case. While he stated that he didn't think the
debris was extraterrestrial in nature (though he had no facts to support his
opinion), he was insistent that the material that Ramey displayed for the press
was in fact a weather balloon, and that he had personally transferred the real stuff
in a lead-lined mail pouch to a courier going to Washington ...I can only
conclude that the Shandera interview was the end result of the confusion that
might occur when someone attempts to press a narrow point of view upon a 90-year-old
man. I had no ambiguity in my mind that Mr. DuBose was telling me the truth.
Cox isn't the only one to hear that version of events from
DuBose. Kris Palmer, a former researcher with NBC's Unsolved Mysteries reported
much the same thing in 1991. When she spoke with DuBose, he told her that the
real debris had gone on to Washington in a sealed pouch and that a weather
balloon had been on the floor in General Ramey's office.
|
Don Ecker |
But the most enlightening of the interviews comes from Don Ecker
formerly of UFO magazine and now the host of Dark Matters Radio on KGRA digital radio.
Shandera had called Ecker, telling him that he would arrange for Ecker to
interview DuBose about this issue. Ecker, however, didn't wait and called
DuBose on his own. DuBose then offered the weather balloon/switch version of
events. When Ecker reported that to Shandera, Shandera said for him to wait.
He'd talk to DuBose.
After Shandera talked to DuBose, he called Ecker and said,
"Now call him." DuBose then said that the debris on the floor hadn't
been switched and that it was the stuff that Marcel had brought from Roswell.
It should be pointed out here that Palmer called DuBose after all this took
place. Without Shandera there to prime the pump, DuBose told weather
balloon/switch version of events. It was only after close questioning by
Shandera could that version be heard. It is not unlike a skillful attorney
badgering a witness in a volatile trial. Under the stress of the interview and
the close questioning, the witness can be confused for a period of time. Left
alone to sort out the details, the correct version of events bubbles to the
surface.
The point here is that sometimes following the footnotes to
their source isn’t enough. You have to explore other avenues of information to
ensure that the footnotes are accurate. In this case, because I’m immersed in
the minutia of Roswell, I knew where to look for the additional information and
that additional information paints a different picture than that found if you
only followed the footnotes to Korff.