This week Don Schmitt and I engaged in a wide-ranging conversation about the state of the UFO research, where it has been and where it was going. Although I had an agenda in mind, and in fact, written down, as usual, the discussion diverged from that almost immediately. You can listen to the program here:
And, there is a video version of the show as well that you can watch here:
I mentioned that my good friend, Bob Cornett had passed away on April 1. I talked about our trip to see the Project Blue Book files when they were first released into the public arena and some of our other adventures in investigating UFOs.
And, of course, in that discussion, I had to mention that the Blue Book files that dealt with the Levelland UFO sightings. That did lead us into a discussion of the way that the Air Force had investigated UFOs, especially after 1953.
We had to talk about the recent release of hundreds of pages of information about UFOs, or that they alleged were about UFOs. Most of them, the vast major of them, had nothing to do with UFOs. It was all part of the study that was done by Bigelow Aerospace.
We moved onto alien abductions. There seemed to be little disagreement between us about the nature of abductions. There was no question that those telling of abductions were relating what they believed to be the truth but the answer seemed to be more terrestrial rather than alien. Like much of the UFO field, there is no single answer.
MJ-12 was another topic that we talked about. We looked at the history of the documents and have come to the same conclusion about them. There are there very few who still believe that MJ-12 is anything authentic. Ryan Wood, as well as his father, Dr. Robert Wood, became the most vocal proponents of MJ-12.
We concluded the conversation with a quick discussion with Gerald Anderson claiming that he had seen the remains of a crashed UFO on the Plains of San Agustin. Again, there are very few who believe that in the world today.
|Don Schmitt at the Anderson (Plains of San Agustin) crash site. The Plains|
are behind Don,the mountains in the distance are the site of the Bat
Cave, where Herbert Dick and his crew were working at the
time of the crash.
That concluded the first hour, but the plan had been to carry on the discussion on the program next week. Of course, we recorded the second hour immediately, which I believe everyone knows we were going to do. To underscore the idea, it was a week later (which would be next week) we both put on jackets.
The first thing that we talked about were some of the Roswell witness, including some of the problems with their stories. Don suggested that Glenn Dennis, had told his story as a way to cover up an affair he was having with a nurse out at the base at the time of the Roswell crash. I wondered why Dennis would have been telling these stories to cover up the affair that had taken place nearly a half century earlier. You can listen to that hour here:
There is a video version of this hour as well. You can watch it here:
I did mention the some of the trouble with Walter Haut, and his endorsement of the Dennis tale. I have mentioned in the past, and again wonder about this in Understanding Roswell.
We do move on from Roswell, and cases in the past to more modern cases, or rather cases from the past that have only recently been reported which is not quite the same thing. That, of course, centered around Jacques Vallee’s book, Trinty, which was about a UFO crash near San Antonio, New Mexico, in 1945, or two years before Roswell.
Both of us found the book wanting, but more important, Don had talked with Remy Baca years before he linked up with Paola Harris, which led to Vallee. According to Don, the story changed significantly over the years.
We end the program with a discussion of drones that might account for some of the modern UFO sightings. And, we talked about the number of sightings of triangles. In fact, there are pictures of triangles that suggest many of the sightings are of terrestrially based technology.
Next up, if things work out, will be Michael Shermer. I mention “work out” because there are some problems with his schedule. If not, I’ll invite him on again in May
Regarding your conversation with Donald Schmidt on the Roswell Incident, I wanted to ask you about a man, who spoke with Grady “Barney” Barnett about Mr. Barnett’s alleged involvement in the ufo crash.
In his 1992 book, “Crash at Corona,” the late Stanton Friedman wrote about a military officer named William Leed, who made a trip to New Mexico to speak with Barney Barnett about what he had witnessed in July of 1947.
Mr. Barnett told William Leed he had seen the crashed ufo and it’s dead flight crew, scattered around the craft. Mr. Barnett also told William Leed, that he had been interrogated three times by military officials regarding the incident.
Have you ever interviewed William Leed about his conversation with Barney Barnett? And, if so, what is your opinion of Mr. Leed’s account?
I know that you have doubts about Mr. Barnett’s involvement in the Roswell crash, because Mr. Barnett’s work as an engineer for the US government was in the western part of New Mexico, some distance away from Roswell in eastern NM. But Stanton Friedman suggested that there were two ufos, that came down in New Mexico; one crashing outside of Roswell in the east and the other crashing outside of Magdalena in the west.
As to Jacque Vallee’s recent book, Trinity,” on the alleged 1945 ufo crash in New Mexico, I remember his comments on the Roswell Incident in, I believe, his much earlier book, “Revelations.”
Mr. Vallee wrote that he was “troubled” by the reports of hieroglyphics on the bendable but unbreakable I-beams, Major Jesse Marcel had recovered with Mac Brazel at the debris field on the ranch.
Mr. Vallee thought that the US government (or AFOSI) could come up with a better gimmick than that.
To say that Mr. Vallee was “somewhat” dismissive of the Roswell Incident would be an understatement. So, to now hear that Mr. Vallee is championing this other alleged New Mexico ufo crash is especially puzzling.
The problem with the Barnett tale is that Ruth Barnett kept a diary for the year, 1947. There is no mention in it of Barney's extraordinary find on the Plains of San Agustin. Not a word or hint. And while Stan tried to explain this by suggesting that Barney wouldn't have told his wife about the experience, fearing government retribution, he did tell family members during the 1947 Thanksgiving dinner about it... according to Vern Maltais. Again, nothing about this extraordinary tale in Ruth's diary.
While it might be true that Barney shared the tale with Colonel Leeds, there is nothing to corroborate the story... no other witnesses, only the story told by Barney. I did talk to a neighbor of the Barnett's who helped with Barney after he had become ill, and knew of the tale, but this really isn't corroboration...
And, of course, there is the nonsense spouted by Gerald Anderson, but that tale has collapsed under the ever changing nature of the story, and forged documents. He even confessed to creating one of those documents. Anderson also claimed to have been a Navy SEAL, the the SEALs, along with Don Shipley have refuted that claim.
So, we're left with nothing other than the second-hand testimony of people who, originally couldn't put a date on Barney's story.
Finally, do you really believe that an alien race that has conquered the problems with interstellar flight would arrived in New Mexico and then fly into one another? There is no evidence of a crash on the Plains, and everyone I talked to who was there in 1947, has denied any knowledge of it.
Not wanting to sound sexist or even misogynistic, I have heard the theory that those two ufos that supposedly collided over New Mexico in 1947 may have been piloted by distaff alien pilots. You know the famous lament about female drivers here on Earth. Somehow, I don’t think that either Linda Moulton Howe or Leslie Kean would agree with that Neanderthal-like ufological opinion in 2022.
I look forward to reading your book on the classic 1957 Levelland, Texas E/M case. I read somewhere that then-US Congressman candidate George W. Bush referenced that dramatic ufo sighting in a debate with his congressional opponent. Unfortunately, the future POTUS lost that congressional race to his Democrat opponent.
I use the handle “Olden” in honor of the late (?) Olden Moore, an Ohio plasterer, who witnessed a landed ufo near Painesville, Ohio in November of 1957. Mr. Moore actually got out of his car and approached the object, before deciding to get back in his car and get his wife to also observe the ufo. Unfortunately, the craft was gone by the time they returned to the site.
Mr. Moore informed the local authorities, who checked the site for radiation. They apparently found radioactive traces on the ground. And, local residents reported interference with their television reception at about the same time Mr. Moore had his encounter that night.
Mr. Moore also said he was later flown on an USAF plane from Ohio to Washington, DC, to be questioned about his sighting by US government agents at a US district courthouse in the nation’s capital. The late, great Major Donald E. Keyhoe made much of the Olden Moore sighting in NICAP’s “”The UFO Evidence.” Major Keyhoe considered this sighting/incident to be proof that the US government knew more about the subject of ufos than they were letting on publicly.
I find it interesting that the Olden Moore incident occurred at around the same time as the Levelland, Texas sighting in November of 1957. If Olden Moore’s claims are true, you would think that the federal authorities would have also flown some of the numerous highly credible Levelland witnesses to Washington, D.C. to obtain their accounts of their sightings.
In any event, I have enjoyed reading your excellent nonfiction and fiction books over the past thirty years or so. What got me originally interested in ufos, was reading my grandfather’s copy of Major Keyhoe’s “Flying Saucers From Outer Space” as a kid. Growing up in New Jersey, I well remember the famous Wanaque Reservoir case. And, while I’ve never been to either Roswell or Socorro, NM, I have stood on the same spot on the baseball field in North Hudson Park, North Bergen, NJ, where the late George O’Barsky allegedly saw ET’s from a hovering ufo, emerge and take soil samples from that same baseball diamond. (Maybe the visitors were really looking for a good shortstop from the Saint Joseph’s of the Palisades High School baseball team for their Pleiades Intergalactic Team?)
Happy Easter to you.
Not the best source but in of the recent interviews Richard Doty claimed that he was the one who first told Friedmann that 2 saucers crashed. He also mentioned that the second craft was discovered two years (!)later by civilians. Could this explain, why it was not in the diary ( the Maltais may be wrong with the date).
Great work Kevin - always a good read...
Look forward to watching the videos over the Easter break...
You wrote to Olden:
"do you really believe that an alien race that has conquered the problems with interstellar flight would arrived in New Mexico and then fly into one another?"
With a bit of grin, I can't resist this reply:
Do you really believe that an alien race that has conquered the problems with interstellar flight would arrived in New Mexico and then push the wrong button?
Regards and have a great Easter
When people ask why the craft crashed, I have no idea... we're dealing with an alien technology and I don't know how it works. So, I say, "Maybe someone pushed the wrong button."
Or, I say, "They did it on purpose to announce themselves in a non-threatening way."
But, I don't know...
But I do know that there wasn't a crash on the Plains at the time Barnett claimed to have seen it... but then, we really only have second-hand testimony about that because none of us talked to Barnett about it and there is nothing to corroborate the claim.
So, sure. Someone pushed the wrong button.
Personally I'm surprised that Donald R Schmitt is still involved in ufololgy and disappointed that after the Roswell Slides fiasco, he is still invited to appear in shows such as this.
Steve M -
While it is certainly your right to reject Don Schmitt's information because of the Roswell Slides, it that ultimately fair? Should we reject Stan Friedman's work because of his support of the discredited MJ-12 fiasco? Even after it was apparent to nearly everyone that MJ-12 was a hoax, Stan held onto his belief in them.
Like many of us, Don has been around the field for a long time and has a wealth of information at his finger tips. As one man wrote about another aspect of all this, if we find that he has been wrong about something, that should trigger questions about his research, and we should, therefore, vet what he says. Is that sufficient reason to reject everything?
Each person has to answer that questions for himself but I see no reason to reject everything out of hand. We all make mistakes.
Was Whitley Strieber the first person to suggest that the alleged crash at Roswell was an attempt by the E.T.s to make themselves known to us? That was the theme of Mr. Strieber’s 1989 novel, “Majestic.”
On another note, it’s too bad that the “leader” of the E.T.s, who abducted Barney and Betty Hill did not allow Mrs. Hill to keep that alien book, that one of the other ufo crew members had given her to take as proof of her remarkable experience.
Then again, Brazilian ufo abductee Antonio Vilas Boas attempted unsuccessfully to purloin an alien clock or some such object after his alleged close encounter of the carnal kind with a comely space woman in 1957.
Randle/Schmitt: The Lennon/McCartney of ufology ... !
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